Heel side washout...why?

[Carp]

Looking for some help. I have a new Coiler Schtubby (170/ 13.2./ 21). I had to borrow some bindings (F2's with 3* inward cant) THANKS AL. I haven't ridden with inward cant in awhile. I loved the board. It was all everyone said and more. I had a really fun night. I used to get really low on my heel side turns, however last night I would try and it seemed like I was driving the nose and it wasn't folding, but it felt like it just gave up or I would just tip over. I found when I shifted my weight to the tail it was better, but I couldn't drive my left shoulder down like I was on my toe side and like I used to in order to get low. I had my brother take some video of me on his little point and shoot camera and I hope to have a link on you tube sometime for you guys to dissect.

Angles I think were around 55* both feet.

Maybe it's just the stiffness in the tail isn't enough for me, but I highly doubt that as the toe sides felt like they always did (only easier)

Thanks in advanced for your help.

Carp

[neil sunday]

without looking at the riding it is hard to tell... the most common causes of heelside washout are:

a) boot overhang on the heelside edge

b) straightening the front leg on heelside turns instead of bending the knee

c)leaning back and riding the tail.

hope this helps-- good luck!

[Hotbeans]

What do the guru's think about increasing rear heel lift and/ or locking the boot down further? In simple terms, wouldn't this increase the pressure on the rear heelside edge when the ankles are flexed? The cant increase might shift weight forward, so a binding adjustment towards the rear might be required to balance it all out.

?

[carvedog]

What do the guru's think about increasing rear heel lift and/ or locking the boot down further? In simple terms, wouldn't this increase the pressure on the rear heelside edge when the ankles are flexed? The cant increase might shift weight forward, so a binding adjustment towards the rear might be required to balance it all out.

?

No offense HB but you might be overthinking this. With rare exception technical riding problems are solved by moving to a more balanced movement pattern or adjusting your riding in some other way.

Adjusting of gear can help to be more comfortable for longer and easier.

Rarely does that overcome a problem in your riding. My two cents.

Post vids.

[Hans]

I had to adapt to this board also. It doesnt like riding at the nose at high speeds at all. But that's in general common with Coilers. At least the two I had: Schtubby 171 and 180 RC. These boards like to be ridden centered. You can give them a push to shift your weight to the tail. What I have tried and worked for me: Take a long backside turn on a moderate steep piste with for you moderate to high controlable speed. Stay centered and go into your knees. Then move the center of your body carefully to the nose or to the tail and feel what happens. Then you can see/feel what the board do. I also detuned the nose a bit with a rubber block and the flippin's/nervous reaction of the board was over. By the way I have ridden this board with TD2 stepin, suspension kit, flat, with mondo 27, about 55front, 52back. So by all means with thse moderate angles ride this board flat if you have 'normal' legs.

[Chubz]

updateCarp

One thing you said that sends red flag up in my mind is that you try to drive your shoulder down on toesides. If anything, similar to keeping your gloves off the snow, I have always read and learned that on alpine one should try and keep shoulders level as much as possible with the pencil pinch drill and a little bit of gunslinger stance. Also do not reach for the snow, once you have the proper snow, slope pitch and skills, the snow will come to you. All of these can contribute to ridding yourself of the heel release.

Another thing to consider is the board angle and sequence through the turn. JBS offered me some advice years ago when I was having heelside trouble. I was trying to be angulated the whole way thru the turn. I found that if I come into a HS from a TS more relaxed and begin the turn still fairly upright, board mostly flat (6 o clock) and begin to angulate on the heedside edge while moving across the fall line of the hill compress the legs with angulation (4:30)progressively more angulated (3:00- 2:00) thru the turn and then start to release out of the turn at 1-12:30, it tends to hold for me. Its easier to observe than explain.

On those heelsides ( regular stance), I find keeping my left elbow up (stretching my obliques) and exaggerated and driving my right hand towards my front boot help the board angulate. This is especially true on less than stellar boiler plate days. when its hero snow, I find myself get lazy and allow hands to drop and touch the snow. toesides are a pencil pinch on the left hip and heelsides are a pencil pinch on the right hip.

This photo of Prentice on a toeside shows good level shoulders, he was on fire that day. The next one is me on a toeside with the elbow thing, not reaching for the snow and pencil pinch on my left hip.

http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4484815_z4Kur#263830388_89bBS-A-LB

http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4484815_z4Kur#263835593_H9RSv-A-LB

for heelside, this one of prentice shows level shoulders, his lead hand up away from the snow, not worried about reaching for it and his right hand pushed forward and not out in la-la land like a rutter. Keep that hand in and rive it towards your front boot. good bent knees, scoping his path, chin up and if you could see thru the jacket, he could probably pinch pencil on that right hip.

http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4484815_z4Kur#263826338_p4SW7-A-LB

Here is another great shot of Prentice on toeside using shoulders level, pinch on left hip, elbow slightly up on right arm, left arm drving forward past front boot and not worried about reaching for the snow.

http://jmphotocraft.smugmug.com/gallery/4484815_z4Kur#263826491_AePBP-A-LB

Put some six shooters in his hands and youhave a real maverick there. Gun slinger stance has always worked for me and seems to work for ole Prentice too.

He was on fire that day, it was a great day!!!!

I hope this makes sense, but I went thru some rough heelside release for a while.

good luck.

Greg

[Carp]

Thanks for the feed back. Driving the shoulder might have been the wrong explanation. Looking at the pictures of the toe side turns, I think I ride pretty similar. The heelside turns I have much more bend in my knees. I didn't have this issue in the past, but that's not to say I'm NOT doing something wrong with form. I'll try and post a link later today. It's my brother following me so hopefully insight can be gained. I don't want to over think this as the fun gets lost. I'm hoping it's an was shift of the bindings back toward the tail.

This was the first time I saw anything on my riding so????

[madlibs69]

If you are tipping over you may be too stiff and upright during the turn. Try getting lower allowing the ankles and knees to bring you there...not by bending.

Also square you hips up to the board along with squaring the shoulders. Don't drop that inside shoulder. Sight your heelside turn while exiting/transitioning off of your toeside turn..that should be your first step to heelside execution and many fail this step. Work on the fore/aft timing of weight distribution throughout the arc of the turn. Simple incorrect timing and tight hamstring/quads can also effect a heelside turn. -See Um See

[mr_roboteye]

It's also possibe your stance is too wide.

later,

Dave R.

[Carp]

I have a 32" inseam. Stance is set at 19.5". Seem right? I've never been flexible so the hamstring comment is really interesting. Please elaborate?

[JJFluff]

First of all, it is not the new gear. With proper riding technique any board or set up should ride the same way with small adjustments. Too many people on this forum try to fix things with gear and setup. Focus on riding and body. It's like any athletic movement. Weighting on an edge should be fluid. Moving throughout the turn as needed. Keep riding and trying different things.

I feel when riding, that weighting starts from the ground up, while turn initiating starts from the top down.

That means that the upper body needs to be one step ahead, letting the body know when it is time to think about transfer. On the other hand, the rider should accelerate the turn by driving the board forward. This causes the weighting of the edge to start forward, and end behind the trailing foot. It is this acceleration that helps to initiate the following turn.

The key to all of these movements is to be able to set both board and body down in the beginning of each turn to properly complete all of the above.

Of course all are more difficult when you are trying to drive the rear knee down, "or backwards away from the movement" from the rest of your momentum which is traveling forward through the turn.

[Bobby Buggs]

Bring us the Vid, other than that its just throwing darts with your eyes closed.

[Carp]

I feel when riding, that weighting starts from the ground up, while turn initiating starts from the top down.

That means that the upper body needs to be one step ahead, letting the body know when it is time to think about transfer. On the other hand, the rider should accelerate the turn by driving the board forward. This causes the weighting of the edge to start forward, and end behind the trailing foot. It is this acceleration that helps to initiate the following turn.

The key to all of these movements is to be able to set both board and body down in the beginning of each turn to properly complete all of the above.

Of course all are more difficult when you are trying to drive the rear knee down, "or backwards away from the movement" from the rest of your momentum which is traveling forward through the turn.

I appreciate the feed back JJ and agree with your statement about driving the board forward. That's kind of what I've been doing in the past and what seems to be causing the issue this go around. I'm driving the boards edge forward by weight transfer and then washout if I drive it hard which I've done in the past.

I don't understand the driving of the rear knee down "or backwards away from the movement". Are you saying perpendicular to the edge of the boards edge or towards tip and tail? I've seen you ride fluff (you rip) and I don't think you mean toward the edge, at least in a heel side turn as I would think that your hips and weight would be to far off the edge causing a tip.

I don't know if I agree with "it is not the new gear." I'm riding a different board with an entirely different flex pattern and different stiffness's throughout the board (tip to tail), not to mention bindings (loaners) I've never ridden, so the cant/lift could be totally different than what I've been used to in the past. Just my 2 cents as I've ridden a lot of different boards and all road a bit different based on not only what I mentioned but other factors as well. No friction intended just not sure I agree.

I was told that the video is on you tube if you do a search for carpenter snowboard sunburst, but I haven't found it so I'm wondering if there's a delay from when it's available for the public to see. Realize it was the last run on tired legs and I wasn't "pushing" it per se. It was also a trailing cameraman with a point and shoot still camera. I'll try to get more video over Christmas if I can bribe a cameraman.

Thanks again for everyone's input. It sounds like I need to tinker a bit, which I'll do when the new bindings arrive.

[Jack M]

First of all, get rid of that inward cant. Blecch! Try heel lift on the back foot, and toe lift on the front foot. About 3 degrees each. I agree with JJ, it shouldn't be the board if your bindings are set up properly.

Get back to basics. Go back to the blues and greens to get things sorted out. Initiate turns with your weight forward, and finish towards the back. Think of feeding the board through the turn. Look where you want to go. Don't just look down the fall line. Keep shoulders level to the hill, and chest facing your front foot toes. Keep your trailing hand in front of you where you can see it throughout the turn. Try to use your bone structure more than your muscles. In other words, don't just "get low" by bending your knees deeply. Lean in first, then use your knees just for suspension.

Let us know how it goes.

I think Chubz got a few links mixed up, I'll see if I can fix. Good form by him and Prentice there. Here's a heelside pic for now...

[Ear dragger]

It sounds to me like you seem to have good form and a good understanding about technique, so i would first say that the cant plate is the first problem, it seems to take away some of the energy you're back foot generates, but you can probably deal with it until you put some new ones on with heel lift and toe lift. My thinking is get your board up on the bench, click the boots onto the bindings and take a look at where the boot is in relationship to the board, ie i try to imagine my leg in the boot and center the leg in the board, if i'm right you're boots are gonna be too far towards the toe side edge, in which case move them back closer to heel side, I'm not saying that it's not you're riding but, to me this is something to look at before you go crazy tryin to change you're riding style. A good freind of mine who i ride with has ridden a few stubby's and we both ride coilers on a regular basis, he never said anything about changing the way he rode the board to make it edge properly, I'm sure other people have different thoughts on this but I think check the centering on the board. hope that helps.

[jpenn]

Hey: thanks for this great discussion - I'm going back out today after a lousy day yesterday (we only had four inches of rain this week), so a lot of my miserable trenches were a result of the conditions i was riding in. But even on the grom, I felt some heelside wash, so I appreciate the insights - Going to work on keeping those shoulders more level, especially.

JP

[dano]

Hey Jack, is that heelside pic on your metal retro PJ schtubby board?

The nose looks soooo soft and deflected, or are you just really tweaking it?

It might just be a great still shot on hard snow, but I'm amazed how bent the nose is...

[Bruce Varsava]

Looking for some help. I have a new Coiler Schtubby (170/ 13.2./ 21). I had to borrow some bindings (F2's with 3* inward cant) THANKS AL. I haven't ridden with inward cant in awhile. I loved the board. It was all everyone said and more. I had a really fun night. I used to get really low on my heel side turns, however last night I would try and it seemed like I was driving the nose and it wasn't folding, but it felt like it just gave up or I would just tip over. I found when I shifted my weight to the tail it was better, but I couldn't drive my left shoulder down like I was on my toe side and like I used to in order to get low. I had my brother take some video of me on his little point and shoot camera and I hope to have a link on you tube sometime for you guys to dissect.

Angles I think were around 55* both feet.

Maybe it's just the stiffness in the tail isn't enough for me, but I highly doubt that as the toe sides felt like they always did (only easier)

Thanks in advanced for your help.

Carp

Hers my take which has already been forwarded to the rider in question

Moving back too far will make initiation too hard. The canting is the big issue though as go flat with just lifts and see how the balance is then. The problem is when you are bow legged and canted in, on heel turns all the pressure is on your front foot boot cuff. I used to get pressure soreness on F leg so out of necessity I negative canted it a bit. Your rear leg is driven so far inwards by the cant that you cannot pressure the boot top on you heel side turn. Toeside finishing of turns would be awesome as you are applying all pressure to the rear leg on that turn from inwards canting but not so much to front. If I cant outwards on the F it does mean I have to roll my ankle a bit more into the heel turn on high sidecut boards to get them to go before getting some speed but I just got used to it.

If you want to get the feel for it, Put your boots and board on and stand in a hallway or between 2 chairs for support. Now go from toe to heel and assess how much pressure you are feeling on your boot tops. On heel it will all be on the Fr foot( no control to back of board, AHA!) and on toe it will all be on rear leg. What you are aiming for is equal boot top pressure so you can control the entire board equally. While doing this try to maintain a comfortable and neutral posture with your lower body, no tweaking of legs to try to get comfy.

Methinks you will be immediately enlightened(-:

BV

[Chubz]

I could be wrong but it looks like a Donek, either way, great example of what a board goes thru on a turn and relaxed great form by Jack.

I hate seeing pictures of Jack because it looks like it would be the same face he would have reading a book in the library. I cant imagine the distorted face, tongue wagging, bottom lip biting faces I make when i ride. Thats why I wear a full face helmet.

Nice explanation on the feeding the board thru the turn.

Practice practice practice. If carving were e-z it wouldnt be the great sport that it is. It's like rock climbing, learning each time you go, somedays are good, others great and some suck, just when you think you are kicking butt, someone one you have never seen b4 comes in and clears a route you have been working for weeks. ARGH!!!! Keep in mind you wont be perfect everytime you head out, but know that for some reason, when hero snow shows itself every once in a while on the east coast, more than likely, the head clears and you will ride flawlessly. those are the days I bide my time for.

[Jack M]

I hate seeing pictures of Jack because it looks like it would be the same face he would have reading a book in the library. I cant imagine the distorted face, tongue wagging, bottom lip biting faces I make when i ride.

:D I make those faces <i>after</i> a day of riding, when attempting maneuvers like sitting down and getting back up.

Board was my Donek 186. Spectacular board, wasn't soft at all.

[BadBrad]

Hers my take which has already been forwarded to the rider in question

Moving back too far will make initiation too hard. The canting is the big issue though as go flat with just lifts and see how the balance is then. The problem is when you are bow legged and canted in, on heel turns all the pressure is on your front foot boot cuff. I used to get pressure soreness on F leg so out of necessity I negative canted it a bit. Your rear leg is driven so far inwards by the cant that you cannot pressure the boot top on you heel side turn. Toeside finishing of turns would be awesome as you are applying all pressure to the rear leg on that turn from inwards canting but not so much to front. If I cant outwards on the F it does mean I have to roll my ankle a bit more into the heel turn on high sidecut boards to get them to go before getting some speed but I just got used to it.

If you want to get the feel for it, Put your boots and board on and stand in a hallway or between 2 chairs for support. Now go from toe to heel and assess how much pressure you are feeling on your boot tops. On heel it will all be on the Fr foot( no control to back of board, AHA!) and on toe it will all be on rear leg. What you are aiming for is equal boot top pressure so you can control the entire board equally. While doing this try to maintain a comfortable and neutral posture with your lower body, no tweaking of legs to try to get comfy.

Methinks you will be immediately enlightened(-:

BV

Bruce, I'm not sure I fully understand what you wrote. I tried setting up my bindings with only heel and toe lift, no canting. Then I clipped in and stood in that setup on my carpet at home. When standing in a neutral balanced position I could feel a lot of pressure on the inside rear boot cuff, and when leaning into the heelside that pressure was even greater. When I added rear canting the inner cuff pressure was relieved. It would seem to me that you'd want to feel no cuff pressure when in a neutral stance on a flat floor. Is this not correct?

Also, on my wider board, which gives binding angles of 48/45, I tried no rear cant and my heelside turns were wavy. When I added a rear cant the wavy heelsides went away.

I still struggle with heelside turns, and I'm just trying to figure out how to best set up my bindings.

[Bruce Varsava]

Also you have to check if the boots themselves have canting in the cuffs and factor that in. Omitted from the reply was the fact that both myself and the rider in question are quite bow legged. The natural shape of your body determines at which angle your shins relate to the board so if you are knock kneed, it would be quite different set up. Another factor is rear ankle lean. If your rear boot is straight up, you will feel more pressure on the boot top as you try to drive into a turn. I use quite an aggressive locked in forward lean ( #4 on the Raichle scale) so I can ride in a lower aggressive posture and drive forwards a bit more with my hips while still maintaining heel pressure on the board .I run angles about 56/53, 6 degree R heel lift and approx 4 degree F toe lift with 1.5 decree negative cant on front. Been riding like that for years and just find for me it works well and eliminated all pressure spots.

As your binding angles get lower, the angle between your legs gets higher so canting is a good thing at lower angles , again depending on body type. Taken to extremes if you ride 90/90 there would be no angle between your legs and you could see how canting would really hurt and if riding 0/0 the canting would be needed as there might be 10 or 15 degrees between your legs.

Very dynamic indeed

[Coloradoking]

early edge pressure is my edge holding technique, push the turn hard at the beginning and lighten up as the turn goes on; and as you're switching from toeside to heelside make sure your weight is shifting off of about 30% nose, 70% tail and moving to about 40% nose and 60% tail. don't move forward on the board though. just make sure your weight is moving a little forward and across the board, if you get stuck with your weight in the middle of the board and not on the edge, that's where you get washout.

[Hotbeans]

Bruce: thanks for your insight. If I were to straighten my legs out, I'd gain 2" in height! I've been trying to wean off the outward cant of the F foot, but now I thinks I add it back and work w/ the rear!

[Blue Bird]

Bruce: thanks for your insight. If I were to straighten my legs out, I'd gain 2" in height! I've been trying to wean off the outward cant of the F foot, but now I thinks I add it back and work w/ the rear!

If you were able to straighten your legs, your life stories would not be nearly as good. now the fun part is figuring out how to use them to your advantage. good times were had!