Are metal boards really that much better?

[Jack M]

Is your schtubby x3? have tit anal init?

Seems like it does. How would something like that be to teach on?

Might have to give it a rip.

Huh huh huh. Yes, my schtubby is metal, but it's not quite an X3. My "Safari Comp IV" is 170cm, 21cm, 14m. X3 is 171cm, 20cm, 13.2m. I wouldn't want to teach on either the Safari or X3 unless I was doing a high level lesson on blues and blacks. For never-evers or novice/intermediate carvers, I'd want something with a radius of 11.5m or under.

[pogokoenig]

yes They Are

No, they are not

I agree with Ray. It depends on personal prferences and nothing else.

Mainly i read two arguments here:

1. Metal boards provide an easier ride. Less efort -> more time on snow

2. The manufacturers more and more switch to metal

To be honest: Who needs an easy ride? When I go to the mountain I do not want hours of average riding. To me, one kick ass adrenaline rush gives more satisfaction. It is like the difference between an Ferrari and a Mercedes Limousine. Which one is the better car? There is no clear answer.

2. If the behaviour of manufacturers was an indication for me: I now would stand on a 156 Freestyle board and wear baggy pants. I would drive a Volkswagen or a Toyota, eat at Mcdonalds every day and I would die with 65 years before my life insurance is going to be paid out.

Among Alfa Romeo drivers there is a very nice saying:

"I'd rather die with a chiver of my wooden steering wheel in the chest, than with an airbag by infirmity."

[Guest]

No, they are not

I agree with Ray. It depends on personal prferences and nothing else.

Mainly i read two arguments here:

1. Metal boards provide an easier ride. Less efort -> more time on snow

2. The manufacturers more and more switch to metal

To be honest: Who needs an easy ride? When I go to the mountain I do not want hours of average riding. To me, one kick ass adrenaline rush gives more satisfaction. It is like the difference between an Ferrari and a Mercedes Limousine. Which one is the better car? There is no clear answer.

2. If the behaviour of manufacturers was an indication for me: I now would stand on a 156 Freestyle board and wear baggy pants. I would drive a Volkswagen or a Toyota, eat at Mcdonalds every day and I would die with 65 years before my life insurance is going to be paid out.

I don't think that arguement works that well. When people say an easy ride, they mean the board holds edge better in crap conditions, and the dampening aspects of the metal feels like you're carving through butter. It does not lessen the amount of adrenaline you get from carving the heck out of a run. Heck, if anything it allows you to push the board and yourself even further, doing superhuman run after superhuman run.

Besides, doesn't everyong here enjoy having the best equipment? The Ferrari/Mercedes comparison doesn't really work. If anythhing the metal boards are the Ferraris, compared with a Corvette, or Mustang, or Camaro. Yeah, they're nice cars, and they may be fun, but they just don't handle as well, run as fast, as the Ferrari (I don't know cars, so if my analogy is bogus, forgive me).

As to the manufacturers going metal, the McDonalds analogy is way off base. The reason manufacturers are going metal, is because the boards are superior in performance to the non-metal counterparts. Period. It's not a matter of trying to appeal to the public with the metal boards, but making a product that will kick as s, which McDonalds et al don't do.

[Bruce Varsava]

Hmm, lets see, last 100 or so orders all Titanal except one, and he even changed his mind! Many returning for second and third T boards. Does that not qualify as a better choice for almost all?

What I find is you can ride runs that were not possible to have fun on glass boards and I speak from head to head testing with top quality glass models previously used very successfully in high level racing so they must have had some redeeming qualities. You can have fun on more terrain as the boards are easier to ride. If I want a challenge, go to a steeper hill if possible. These boards let you do things that were more difficult and frustrating before. This to me is more satisfying than popping happily down a blue run which the T boards will do also.

As for the elusive pop factor. I am already using 3 distinct lamination levels ( carbon vs glass) to allow different levels for different riders and applications. There are so many factors involved, there is obviously no one level of flex type and rebound that will work for all.

I still like making them damp so will be using full rubber in the lamination for now. If you leave it out, they sound like tin cans as the metal does not do the dampening in those boards.

[boarderboy]

Texalium is fiberglass coated with powdered aluminum.

Does anyone know if it has any special requirements (for instance) in vacuum bagging?

Stuff looks great and I can get a remnant piece locally.

Thanks

[Steve Prokopiw]

if texallium qualifies as metal(powdered aluminum impregnated fiberglass),but just to throw a little wrench in the works;the Diablo Composites BX texallium board I demoed at OES had exactly the same ride qualities touted by the metal faithful.So,in my op,metal does have competition as far as alternative construction.

However,I am with pogo on the comparison of sports cars in that a good old fashioned session without 'power steering' and a bit more raw power(think Shelby Cobra 427) can be exhilarating in a way that leaves the 'driver' feeling like he has done something physically, mentally and even spiritually rewarding.

The 06 Coiler AM182 I bought from Mike T. and rode last season has the attributes I would compare to a sportscar built back in the days before we all got fat and lazy.I have a buddy who has a 1970 Pantera and another who has a 1980 911 and those cars are fun to drive because they are everything that the modern,heavy,robotic luxury liners that mascarade as sports cars are not.If I had the dinero my new sports car of choice would be something like the Lotus Elise,(low weight,high Gs,no bells and whistles; and great gas milage to boot!) for that reason.

That's also why I am getting the 'snappy' carbon upgrade in the Diablo that is being made for me.I want to have to hang on and challenge myself to perform to the board's demands.When I can no longer keep up with the board,it's beerthirty.

Of course, I'm a quiver kind of guy and so I will definitely have an easy riding metal board to add in the future.

[Gecko]

Texalium is no different than a regular glass the same weight. the metal color is only aesthetic not functional....

[MUD]

Texalium is no different than a regular glass the same weight. the metal color is only aesthetic not functional....

Some people are starting to think the aluminization behaves as an intermediary layer between the glass and the epoxy, giving it different characteristics than pure glass.......

Nothing quantitative though.

As far as working with it, use the same techniques as glass, it behaves the same way.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Well,if the texallium sheet does not aid performance over regular glass,then Abel and Eric must have had some other trick up their collective sleeve to explain how well the board rode and performed.

If that's the case,I am even more excited to ride the new board.

[boarderboy]

Thank you for the observations.

I think I'll get a couple of remnants to experiment with on the second iteration of a twintip for my son - not the first one, though. Gonna keep the first attempt simple with as few unknowns as possible.

As for my own riding, based on the many BOL testimonials of past couple of years, I suspect a titanal all-mtn or Axxess/4wd would be the ultimate "easy rider" for an out-of-shape oldster. Hope to find out sooner rather than later.

Great Groom to all!

[carvingchef]

YES THEY ARE!

and i'm sticking with it

if the question was "which one you prefer metal or non metal" it would be a different story and you would get everyone's opinion, not the you didn't this way, but the question was Are metal boards really that much better? if you are not sure ask the manufacturers and see what they say.

I am sure somebody many years ago was also wondering if metal edges were that much better.

[bobdea]

YES THEY ARE!

I agree, find a race ski without the stuff, I don't know of any..........

we might of figured out sidecut first but certainly not construction!

[Bruce Varsava]

if texallium qualifies as metal(powdered aluminum impregnated fiberglass),but just to throw a little wrench in the works;the Diablo Composites BX texallium board I demoed at OES had exactly the same ride qualities touted by the metal faithful.So,in my op,metal does have competition as far as alternative construction.

Admittedly I have never worked with Texalium but have seen it used in a few products. My initial feeling was that it is a "poser" product as the quantity of Aluminum is so small and sprayed on, so I understand, that it seems to make sense that it would not make much of a performance difference. One thing you also mentioned was that you said it has the same qualities as touted by metal enthusiasts? Do you have time on a decent metal board to make that as a valid assessment? I'm not trying to be a wise guy here but just curious as I have never even worked with the stuff and that comment to me being hands on educated in most materials but not that one just does not make sense . Just curious?

Sportscars, I like aluminum so much, I even have an all aluminum one;)

[Ray]

I find t quite amusing to see how serious this is being taken here, geez.

Even Bruce/Coiler getting directly involved now here to make his point, which I like I am wondering who is next.

It seems people insist they are right, even though every one out there is different and likes different things, but who cares

Well, Pogo made his point and I know why he's on a non-metal, it fits him better, quite simple! So for him a metal board was/is not the better board.

The “if you are not sure ask the manufacturers and see what they say” comment, hmm, what kinda (naive) statement is that? You can ask many different manufactures and get so many different opinions for many reasons.

Face it, it is and will always be a personal opinion (even if you don't like the fact) of what is better

CHEERS!

[Bruce Varsava]

I agree, find a race ski without the stuff, I don't know of any..........

we might of figured out sidecut first but certainly not construction!

I was chatting with a skier in the lift yesterday and his Atomics looked like they had more stuff on them than a space shuttle! If I have to start installing all those gizmos to keep up, I'm looking for a different career! Makes you wonder what is fluff and what is substance.He liked em so some of it must be doing something good. Since it took us 40 + years to get the Titanal after skiers had it, guess I won't have to worry about that stuff as I'll be long retired by the time snowboards will be getting that tech 30 or 40 yrs from now.

[bobdea]

well, depends on the ski.

atomic SG and DH skis don't have all the doodads, I figure if they did anything they'd be on their skis that are meant to be skied on at 85 miles per hour.

Have not seen any of the atomics since 2005 but at that point the speed skis looked the same in construction as one of your boards.

[MUD]

Admittedly I have never worked with Texalium but have seen it used in a few products. My initial feeling was that it is a "poser" product as the quantity of Aluminum is so small and sprayed on, so I understand, that it seems to make sense that it would not make much of a performance difference. One thing you also mentioned was that you said it has the same qualities as touted by metal enthusiasts? Do you have time on a decent metal board to make that as a valid assessment? I'm not trying to be a wise guy here but just curious as I have never even worked with the stuff and that comment to me being hands on educated in most materials but not that one just does not make sense . Just curious?

Sportscars, I like aluminum so much, I even have an all aluminum one;)

I just got done doing a little reading on the Hexcel site, they consider Texalium an "aesthetic glass".

I have heard that it "feels" different, BUT Hexcel doesn't seem to think it is anything more than pretty. They don't have a tech data sheet for it either.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Admittedly I have never worked with Texalium but have seen it used in a few products. My initial feeling was that it is a "poser" product as the quantity of Aluminum is so small and sprayed on, so I understand, that it seems to make sense that it would not make much of a performance difference. One thing you also mentioned was that you said it has the same qualities as touted by metal enthusiasts? Do you have time on a decent metal board to make that as a valid assessment? I'm not trying to be a wise guy here but just curious as I have never even worked with the stuff and that comment to me being hands on educated in most materials but not that one just does not make sense . Just curious?

Sportscars, I like aluminum so much, I even have an all aluminum one;)

My comment was not meant to say I don't believe the metal hype nor to say I know much.My assessment is based on reading the reams of description on this site about how metal boards ride.So,one could say I know little about metal boards,but I know what I feel and like and I can transfer a description to a real life application.The board I mentioned rode fantastically well and was assessed that way by several riders who own metal boards.Whether the cool looking texallium had anything to do with it is now beside the point.I stand by my opinion of the Diablo and it's ride quality.

[Cyrus the virus]

MAybe There is a reason why almost every all went to metel....

It just make riding easier,,

and if you think it dont have pop... well then you just dont push it;;\\\\\\\

its such a feel of what you want.. for ice... nothing beats metal..

my two nickels

shred

its such a feel of what you want.. for ice... nothing beats metal..

Shred,

I´m nore than sure you never rode a Zylon board!!!!

[Cyrus the virus]

So, here is my opinion on that discussion!

Not every metal construction is the holy grail!

I´will bring a bunch of boards with our new construction to the SES 2009.

I won´t tell the riders what is inside and will see what they have to tell me after their rides!

I tested last year a few of the top selling boards from other manufacturers and it was very interesting what people like and what I could see on the slopes.

[Bullwings]

Any metal soft/hard boot boards out there?

I was thinking of something like an ATV with metal that can be used for both soft and hardboots.

Or like, a metal Tanker maybe. Or maybe some sort of metal BX board.

It would definitely be an AM board with a waist of around 230-240mm. nothing narrower, because that wouldn't work for softies, and nothing wider because that would be too slow for edge transitions and would feel too "fat" for using with hardboots (probably already too fat for most of you).

[Hans]

Got a Tinkler system 202 out of Texalium with a titanal/carbon derbieplate here, and it's working fine so far.But it's another ride in comparison to my Coiler Schtubby Titanal and my Virus Cyborg Titanal. To say in words: they all ride very differently but I am not complaining. So I think Frank (Virus) has a good point. Yes metal boards are very ridable but there are boards with other materials that ride also very good.

[Bruce Varsava]

My comment was not meant to say I don't believe the metal hype nor to say I know much.My assessment is based on reading the reams of description on this site about how metal boards ride.So,one could say I know little about metal boards,but I know what I feel and like and I can transfer a description to a real life application.The board I mentioned rode fantastically well and was assessed that way by several riders who own metal boards.Whether the cool looking texallium had anything to do with it is now beside the point.I stand by my opinion of the Diablo and it's ride quality.

Personally I am not interested in installing anything in my boards that is not performance related so it is of interest to me from a construction standpoint whether it is another material to work with or not so that is why I am curious as to the effectiveness. I don't question the boards performance but just more interested if it is the material added any of the benefits which is almost impossible to judge unless you ride one with and one without. Of course educated guesses can be made from data gained through various sources.

Often I get questions about visible board designs like nose and tail shape, sidewall angles or cosmetic tops. As a designer this is the fluffy stuff that is way down the list on actually designing a board as there are a ton of other non visible designs which are way more important. You can put the best materials in a board but if the design is off for you, it will suck anyways. Conversely you can use the most basic materials and have great perfomance if it is built to your weight, ability and requirements. Learned this early on back in the days of building sailboards. Load on the carbon, kevlar etc and still get passed by some dude on a cheap glass board:freak3:

Of course the high tech materials do make a difference but do have to be put into a usable package to get their full potential.

Time to go to work, Have to test 13.2 vs 14.2m stubbies today and also testing NSR flex patterns. Another interesting test will be a hi camber vs identical lower camber classic. Yeah, this part of the job sucks;)

[Hans]

Time to go to work, Have to test 13.2 vs 14.2m stubbies today and also testing NSR flex patterns. Another interesting test will be a hi camber vs identical lower camber classic. Yeah, this part of the job sucks;)

Very bad job indeed, testing metal snowboards on that snowy hill.

[Jack M]

I still like making them damp so will be using full rubber in the lamination for now. If you leave it out, they sound like tin cans as the metal does not do the dampening in those boards.

Huh??

I thought the metal increased the dampness of the board...?