Soft Alpine

[bobdea]

hinge point or lack thereof- soft boots can suffer from lack of it too. My old malamutes..also were too stiff without hinges... going to the Andy Warhols (A burton Hale with graphics) - and a stiffer boot overall- did not suffer like the malamutes,,,those particular burtons- those have a pseudo stitched hinge cuff... so do the burton SLX..

Was there a model of clicker that had a true hinge point??... if so I am mistaken. I remember the model with the ankle strap ...but that is not a hinge point.

Ankles should not be locked on a wide board.

the highbacks were on the binding, the boot was similar to a regular softboot just with a rail on the bottom of boot to make it clicker compatible. they gave great response but with little stiffness where I don't like stiffness where as with the rossi SIS or Switch it was exactly where I did not want it making it so you'd load up the board in weird ways similar to if you use a hardboot with really low angles on a softy setup. can still hammer turns only on soft snow and it feels un-natural.

The clicker HB if anything gave more ankle movement than even a strap binding. http://www.outdoorreview.com/cat/snowboard-equipment/snowboard-bindings/older-step-in/k2/PRD_85379_3146crx.aspx

they did require a specific boot to work right though....... most other clicker boots would not even fit in the bindings.

[Dr D]

I suppose its all about the break in with any of the softies. eventually they feel hinged whether they are or not.

[bobdea]

Alternatively go with catek freerides and the bungee around the top. solomon malamutes preferably

what highbacks are those?

[pokkis]

F2 HBX Intec soft setup is still my favorite for softies. Hurricane boots are comfy but stiff and HBX gives enormous side support.

Here bulted for slope riding on my Fatjack, that is why angles are quite high :rolleyes:

http://www.ojankaivajat.org/gallery/displayimage.php?album=2&pos=9

[John Gilmour]

I suppose its all about the break in with any of the softies. eventually they feel hinged whether they are or not.

Well IMHO a hinge is very different from material flexion. Without a hinge boots tend to "blouse" which means they get fatter in one area (*lower) and tight around the ankle- impedeing flexion- while losing control of the foot.

When the boot gets fatter lower down... it fails to hold your foot in place laterally and your foot rolls within the boot (Either the liner rolls in the shell- or the foot rolls in the liner) as if you did not lace up tightly.. and no...lacing tighter won't fix it.... it just screws up the flex.

BUT a hinge fixes this.

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New jersey medical marijuana

[b0ardski]

hinge = :D

[Dr D]

what highbacks are those?

I have three sets and two are just the regular catek highback. I am not impressed with them.

The best set I have has drake carbon podium highbacks and straps which are awesome. anybody have a set they don't use I am in the market to upgrade my other two sets.

[Bullwings]

I just rigged up my Catek FR2s with some booster straps on my high backs. I've been running them at 48-43 with "Gilmour Bias" (i think) on a Tanker 192.

I have my front binding shifted back (not set back) a little bit so that my heel sticks out a little bit more over my heel side edge, and my rear binding shifted forward a little bit more so that my toe sticks out a little bit more over my toe side edge.

I'm using the standard high backs. They're a bit flimsy, and i think i'd benefit to have the carbon high backs. It'll work for now though. I don't weigh that much (145 lbs). I can definitely see how you heavier guys that ride more aggressively and powerfully NEED the carbon high backs.

This is my second day of the season on the setup, and it feels great. Alpinish, but not quite. Still fun either way, i'm able to make the same shape turns that i'd make on my alpine setup. I don't think i can trench quite as deep though, and i'm pretty sure i can turn tighter radius turns on the HBs, but it'll have to wait a little bit more.

It works for me. I'm using some Vans Fargos. I think i should replace them with Salomon Malamutes or Burton DriverXs. we'll see. i think i need new gloves and pants before that though - my left ass cheek is worn out and my gloves are all torn up now.

Edit:

More time on this three strap setup has shown me that you can't replicate hardboots on softboots, and trying to is a waste of tiem and effort. Booster straps removed...

[Rob Stevens]

Damn. The Nitro Raiden R8's I just rode were sick!

Comfortable AND stiff.

Now if I could only find some Superpipes... No complaints, though. My new 32 TM2's kill, too.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Hi BlueB

I went thru similar soft booth experiment last season. I was teaching in windham (Kaatskils mountains) Difference was i didn't have too teachers were cool enough to let me teach in HB but i wanted to use softies to make my students feel less confused :)

Also it was ice coast, it makes a big difference IMHO

Here are my conclusions:

1 Soft set up (low alpine angles) work ok 80% of HB performance on hero snow.

2 on ice it was a disaster it was difficult to load an edge maybe 40% of HB.

3 I ended up changing my boots for a run between classes (i took my backpack with buts to the rack so it was relatively quick)

4 This season i only use my softies for snow kiting i simply dont see any advantages of SB over HB. Maybe SB are slightly better in east cost trees but it is marginal. is more about angles anyway

Przemek

[John Gilmour]

I just rigged up my Catek FR2s with some booster straps on my high backs. I've been running them at 48-43 with "Gilmour Bias" (i think) on a Tanker 192.

I have my front binding shifted back (not set back) a little bit so that my heel sticks out a little bit more over my heel side edge, and my rear binding shifted forward a little bit more so that my toe sticks out a little bit more over my toe side edge.

I'm using the standard high backs. They're a bit flimsy, and i think i'd benefit to have the carbon high backs. It'll work for now though. I don't weigh that much (145 lbs). I can definitely see how you heavier guys that ride more aggressively and powerfully NEED the carbon high backs.

This is my second day of the season on the setup, and it feels great. Alpinish, but not quite. Still fun either way, i'm able to make the same shape turns that i'd make on my alpine setup. I don't think i can trench quite as deep though, and i'm pretty sure i can turn tighter radius turns on the HBs, but it'll have to wait a little bit more.

It works for me. I'm using some Vans Fargos. I think i should replace them with Salomon Malamutes or Burton DriverXs. we'll see. i think i need new gloves and pants before that though - my left ass cheek is worn out and my gloves are all torn up now.

I find the bigger the board the more need for a supportive binding.. ie stiffer highbacks and straps with more coverage and stronger wider straps with a solid ratchet with leverage. Also you need to have firmer inner liners in your boots too...because the longer the lever arm is.. the more your foot could twist in a soft boot.

A Tanker 192 is pretty ambititious for 145lbs in softies (hey if you can do it why not???) .. I've ridden the tankers and hardboots for me would make sense for lengths over 175cm. I'm not sure how aggressive you could be in that set up. I tend to like to overdrive my boards... and not have them be able to lever against me.

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IPOD GAMES

[Bullwings]

I find the bigger the board the more need for a supportive binding.. ie stiffer highbacks and straps with more coverage and stronger wider straps with a solid ratchet with leverage. Also you need to have firmer inner liners in your boots too...because the longer the lever arm is.. the more your foot could twist in a soft boot.

A Tanker 192 is pretty ambititious for 145lbs in softies (hey if you can do it why not???) .. I've ridden the tankers and hardboots for me would make sense for lengths over 175cm. I'm not sure how aggressive you could be in that set up. I tend to like to overdrive my boards... and not have them be able to lever against me.

A stiffer high back would help for sure. As for straps, the ones that come with the FR2s seem pretty good (they're not carbon 900 straps), but they pretty much cover my entire boot, as far as surface area goes, when combined with the third booster straps.

I'm actually really itching to try the setup in hardboots. I'm sure the radius on my turns would tighten up. It might be a bit ambitious in the softies (i agree), but i fall within Rad-Air's recommended rider weight haha. I figure probably weigh around 160-165 with gear (i carry a pretty heavy pack with tools, food, and water).

maybe i should pick up an SG Soul for softies. wish i could get a hold of a Madd BX

[John Gilmour]

If a board is narrow- your tibia shaft is almost not offset much- and you can ride almost in a symmetrical fashion.

But if the board is wider... you have to adopt an asym riding style..which IMHO involves using your ankles... or you will be severely limited in speed and technique.

No one...I mean No one... will be able to carve as fast as I can with ankle movement on a wide board if their ankles are locked in soft boots..(its not that I am a good rider..its that not ahving ankle flexion on a wider board in a soft boot which is not fully supportive will remove about 40%-50% of a persons riding ability) . why?? Because- you need to be able to flex the ankles to lower your body. The only way to deal with the g- forces (with flimsy hard boots) is to get your center of mass lower. When you get your center of mass inches off the ground and over the edge.. You no have reduced the lever arm....and you can ride hard even w/o the support of a hard boot. Not being able to position your center of mass over the edge is crippling to your ability to rip. Sure a person can putt putt their way down the hill at 15mph leaving a single line... but that is about it for carving.

Riding with 3 strap bindings is supposed to more closely emulate a hard boot... but... IT DOESN'T!

----Because with locked highback you eliminate the hinge point of the ankle.. (and if you don't lock the highback..what is the point over a 2 strapper????) A 3 strapper could work on a softer narrow alpine deck w/ high angles to hold yourself in the cuff of the highback.. but that is about it. even then,,, you are better off with a softer hard boot.

There is a reason you can not buy 3 strap bindings anymore- because they just suck (sorry Softbootsailor- I know you LOVVVE them...but I am quite sure about this.) and 3 strappers encourage a riding style that does not apply to wider soft boards.

3 strap bindings worked pretty good on some Asym shifted sidecut boards... like the Mistral Ecstasy which was narrow and soft. Some used them on PJ's notably one stocky German girl who won the US open slalom in the 1980's (I think it was Petra Mussig)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra_M?ssig

it was more so that she was just a way better rider than the other women..and overcame the limitations of softboots.

They also could work...sorta on Hot Logicals (ehhh)...the old ones that were softer.

If you ever wanted to make a 3 strapper that worked... you would have to make progressive flex built into the forward lean mech. of the highback.. similar to a BTS system - it would have to not interfere with the heelside clearance... and..... you would need a HINGE !! HINGE! HINGE! on the boot.

In well designed soft bindings the ankle strap (width) flex partially functions as a boot tongue.

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Ford Dld Engine Picture

[BlueB]

When snow school forced me into soft boots last year, I did transition by using the Drivers with 3-strap Burtons at 45/35 angles. It gave me underhang on 3800, but it railed great. I wasn't totally hapy before I added Raichlee plastic tongue instead of Burton's quazi-stiffener. Gradually, I reduced the angles towards 21/6 required for teaching. Got rid of the 3-straps as they were pain to deal with for constant in/out while teaching, and old and squeeky enough to make me worried every time I rode them hard.

I named this tread "Soft Alpine" mostly in search of setup that would alow me to ride soft boots on narrower board (under 23) with alpine style angles and technique. This is intended as a ride in between the lessons, so I wouldn't have to change the boots. It is important to understand that I have quite week ankles and some deformity on the left foot too.

Other day I just freecarved on a regular hardboot setup and 22.5 wide board. I started the day on looser boots for more ankle movement and a bit of sideways flex. At some point my front ankle started hurting (slightly injured with softies week before), so I fully cranked the hard boots. What a difference! Suddenly I remembered why I like the Dalbello ski boots as oposed to wishy-washy SB hard boots... Maybe I'll just give up and keep on switching the boots between lessons and free riding.

One last experiment might be the X type Switch boot/binding, with added top strap on the high-back (at least front one), but high-backs not bolted. That would allow forward flex, but reduce my dreadded side flex and ankle roll...

I really appreciate everyone's input.

[bobdea]

jesus, they make you ride specific angles?

next they will tell you that you need to wear a specific brand of boot.

[John Gilmour]

jesus, they make you ride specific angles?

next they will tell you that you need to wear a specific brand of boot.

American Ski company does that.. You have to ride what they sell _ at least it was that way a few years ago..

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Vermont Dispensaries

[BlueB]

Well, thy won't quite spell it out, but would like to see everyone on duck or at least 0deg rear. 21/6 was about highest angles I was able to get away with. 45/35 was pure shock for the system, while at 35/20 I still wasn't getting any lessons assigned.

BTW, 35/20 were my softy angles before I started this whole alpine thing...

[John Gilmour]

Well, thy won't quite spell it out, but would like to see everyone on duck or at least 0deg rear. 21/6 was about highest angles I was able to get away with. 45/35 was pure shock for the system, while at 35/20 I still wasn't getting any lessons assigned.

BTW, 35/20 were my softy angles before I started this whole alpine thing...

I was accepted to teach for Aspen Ski Co. and they wanted me to ride duck too..but they never called. I left messages at the snowmass desk twice and left voice mails.. I guess I was the "odd duck" out - though I did get a pass- but it would have been nice to teach since the pay scale at Aspen is livable.

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WATER BONG

[Steve Prokopiw]

selling one's soul.I love teaching but I wouldn't let a school turn me into a robot at a teaching factory.Hence the reason I have found other employment until I find a venue that is run by a company that has not sold its soul to the status quo.There is no proof that duck is better for everybody.In fact I would say that it's worse for many.

[BlueB]

Yup, it does sound a bit like that. However, that part of discussion belongs in the famous Hardbooting Instructor in Trouble

tread. Let's stick to the apline technique/setup for soft boots...

[Dr D]

sounds like you got it dialed in. remember this is the premium set up for those days when the groom is a little soft and you are afraid of folding a nose. It won't happen with this setup.

[BlueB]

I've got plenty of boards that won't fold in soft with h/boots. To be honnest, I'm more afraid of folding my leading ankle in softies...

[b0ardski]

I've got plenty of boards that won't fold in soft with h/boots. To be honnest, I'm more afraid of folding my leading ankle in softies...

+1

I guess that's why I don't bother.

[Dr D]

:lol:

I come from good thick ankled stock!

[BlueB]

Switched back to the X type system yesterday, for low angle riding. Definitelly more support. Come to think of it, those X boots have a custom, super thick ankle strap. Maybe that's what made the difference?

Anyhow, I still don't have the balls to try the very high angles without the 3rd strap...

As for my N type boots, they are World Travellers. Got a pair in M8 and M9. That's probably too small for you DrD... 8s have 1/2 day on snow, 9s probably just a few.