Soft Alpine

[BlueB]

Another idea I have i to use N type boots on the X type binding with the top strap added to the highback. N types do not quite enough fwd lean, X type can add that with adjustable highback. It would add a lot of stifness too.

:D .

[Keenan]

Let me get this straight, Cypress will not allow you to teach on hardboots? They are owned by The Boyne Corporation which also owns Crystal Mtn. and Big Sky, both of which allow their instructors to teach on any set up they want. Cypress is also hosting the giant slalom event at the 2010 olympics, how will that look to the visiting atheletes? So, are the ski instructors forbidden from teaching on twin tip skis?

[BlueB]

Yup, you've got it right. No h/boots for SB instructors.

Ski instructors are forbiden to teach on straight skis or alpine touring setup even with locked heels. Rear entry ski boots are not permited either.

However, this tread was not supposed to be about my differences with Cypress - there's a huge tread about it, look up "Hardbooting instructor in trouble" from last season. Teaching comments should be posted there.

[Dr D]

Hey D, talking about a bungee power strap, but it looks like you are using a cam buckle strap ( a la rafting type of strap ). If polyprolene strap material is used virtually no stretch and about 600 to 1,200 lbs breaking strength depending on weight.

Curious. Nylon strap material ( again coming from the rafting side, where I been making my own straps lately ) is a little more stretchy but nearly twice the breaking strength.

Are you trying to eliminate all stretch and some flex on the power strap or just what you had around?

Ever wondered how useful the standard Velcro strap at the top of your boot liner is? Very useful for strapping your boots together, but how much support does it actually provide? Velcro is notoriously inconsistent when wet or infused with snow; Velcro also slips under tension.

· Do you already own performance specific boots and want to make them firmer?

· Do you want to add a little spring and support to your softer boots?

· Do you suffer from shin bang?

You may want to consider a Booster power strap.

The Booster power strap dramatically increases your performance. By using specially woven elastic webbing the Booster creates an elastic bond between your leg and your boot. You'll get a quicker start to your turn and more rebound by using the Booster power strap. Preloading the Booster also allows you to control the response of your board.

The Booster strap is a power strap that adds stiffness to your boot. It attaches (using a post screw) to the plastic cuff of your boot, behind your calf, and two ("Standard" - FIRM) or three ("Race" - EXTRA FIRM) elastic bands provide active stiffness to the front of your boot. The Booster strap is especially compatible with ThermoFlex liners, as those liners come without the standard Velcro top straps.

Comes in Standard ($27.95) and Race ($38.95).

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[Dr D]

Doc,

Another idea I have i to use N type boots on the X type binding with the top strap added to the highback. N types do not quite enough fwd lean, X type can add that with adjustable highback. It would add a lot of stifness too.

I have tried that and with the boot you have it feels really awkward. to stiff in one plane and not stiff enough in the other or something. Maybe its just me and maybe its just the rental boot bit it didn't work for me.

[Dr D]

The Ntype boot has an internal highback and several models were quite stiff. So the third strap just tightens up the top of the boot which is the highback. The higher harboot liner also helps in this regard.

There is no high back to lock down since its already locked down inside the boot.

Its a special situation that does not translate well to other setups.

even other step in softies with internal high backs aren't as stable.

the switch interface is a four point lockdown rather than just a two point so it is much more stable than two point lateral or two point front and rear step in systems.

the xtype boot and binding does not work the same either.

most of the vans boots N type that have the ratchet strap over the arch and the third strap are stiff enough.. some have adjustable forward lean mechanisms built into the ratchet strap on the boot.

[BlueB]

Also, the 3rd strap on non-locking highbacks should add stiffness laterally, even if not so in fwd direction. Lateral stiffness is what you want with higher angles.

[Dr D]

what he said:lurk:

YOur angles will be higher using softies to. IF you subscribe to the heels and toes on the edges school of thought any way.

See above pictures. you'll notice very high angles. The cateks don't have locked down highbacks but the angles are near skwal territory so its lateral stiffness that the straps are providing.

[Bullwings]

the burton cartels can lock the high back down. you just better make sure to unlock it each time you unstrap and get on the lift, or you might end up with a broken binding.

As far as the high back is concerned, ever since i started riding Catek FR2s, i've found them so responsive that i have no complaints and feel no need to even try to further modify the binding.

They're still not hardboots, but they're the next best thing too it. And my boots aren't even that stiff, they're '05 Vans Fargos with the BOA system. For riding a softy setup, I think the bindings make more of a difference than the boots - once you find a boot that fits well and doesn't hurt that is - boot stiffness all seems relative since they're still soft no matter what...

Edit: For reference, i'm riding my cateks at 48f-44r (or something close to it)

[ruwi]

Boardski,

Unfortunately this is my one and only pair. I really love this one, simple design with less parts to deal with. I'm also hunting for another pair as a back up.

Regards,

ruwi

[b0ardski]

Hey Fin, how about a nitro style rigid pin stepin option on the TD3:biggthump

[Jack M]

...the 3rd strap gave you instant feedback like a hardboot....

...adding a top strap basically gave me HB performance with SB...

Not quite. But I do strongly believe there is a place for 3 strap bindings, for people who have come to the realization that they're not ruling the pipe and tweaking grabs in the park anymore, or anyone who wants to just cruise the mountain with better response.

3 strap bindings are the gateway to hardboots. I remember when I had 3-strappers on my Safari and then PJ. I thought I would never need hardboots, and I actually vowed to never use them, because I was a snowboarder dammit, and snowboarders don't use ski boots.

But then I did try hardboots, and the difference was night and day. I was blown away. It was like breaking the sound barrier. So I really wouldn't say that riding 3 straps is just like riding in hardboots, because it most definitely is not.

But the key point is, 3-strap bindings allowed me to make the transition to hardboots effortlessly and naturally. Today it seems people coming from 2 strap bindings have to learn riding in hardboots as if it were a totally different sport. That's sad.

[twelsch42]

As far as the high back is concerned, ever since i started riding Catek FR2s, i've found them so responsive that i have no complaints and feel no need to even try to further modify the binding.

Yes! Yes! Yes! If you're ready for a new experience in soft-boots, get the Catek FR2's. I could gush about how great they are - they will change your life, blah, blah, blah. Let's just say this - it is the best money I've ever spent. Not in a snowboarding / winter-sports kind of way. As a consumer, throughout my 30 years of life, I've never been more rewarded with purchase. All other soft boot bindings suddenly seem like toys.

[the above I would consider fact, below is my opinion on the FR2's]

Besides the stiffness and control afforded by these bindings, the ability to lift and cant is immeasurable. Some people run flat, and scoff ant anything more than a slight rear heal lift. I'd argue that our boddies are so different you need to make your bindings work for you - not try to work within your bindings.

I have found the ability to adjust my lift and cant has made my boots fit better. My feet don't hurt anymore. I can get into the positions I need to easily with better balance. Your milage may vary - our boddies are so different. I liken it to a baseball glove that molds to your hand. You can coax a perfect fit out of these bindings if you're willing to put in the time testing things out. Any other bindings will fit exactly the same at the end of the season as the beginning.

I'll try to only write a few posts like the throughout the season, but I get really excited about these bindings. :D

twelsch

[Bullwings]

nothing and I mean nothing can

provide the same support as a highback binding that locks down with the

3rd strap...

hardboots maybe?? oh wait, nevermind. that's TOO MUCH support, not the same thing.

nothing and I mean nothing can provide the same kind of slop, play, and flex that raichelle SB123s in walk mode, with burton rat traps, and the top buckle undone does...

oh, wait, nevermind, there's softboots.

[Dr D]

For those of you who can't wait to jump into this conversation, please realize that if you are a hardboot zealot this conversation is not for you.

No offense but we are talking about soft boot alpine applications.

Jack put it nicely its a niche that will help bring more people to our sport.

They won't come if every conversation centering around soft boot applications includes some idiot telling them they are stupid for trying it:smashfrea

Some of us like to be different and just wear softies to piss you off

And some of us have discovered that when the snow is to soft to use hardboots without hooking the nose and killing yourself, an alternative exists that is unique and a real hoot. so butt out

This concludes my rant for the day:biggthump

[Dr D]

hardboots maybe?? oh wait, nevermind. that's TOO MUCH support, not the same thing.

nothing and I mean nothing can provide the same kind of slop, play, and flex that raichelle SB123s in walk mode, with burton rat traps, and the top buckle undone does...

oh, wait, nevermind, there's softboots.

Read the title this is a soft boot conversation. The above statement you quoted is referring to soft boots only. Please allow dialogue to grow on how to do this. When they are ready they will want to try hardboots too:biggthump

[refried]

I added a strap to my Malamutes last year and it made a big difference in support. I thought about bolting it to the hiback to have a 3 strap binding but I use several sets of bindings besides the Cateks.

I've been using a camstrap for a few years to add more support but added the new straps last year and have been very happy with the results. I have a new set of Malamutes that I'd like to compare these to but I dislocated my elbow in mid April and spent the last few weeks of the season riding slow and carefully (unlike how I was riding when I did it).

[Dr D]

I have been just wrapping the booster straps around the boot and the high back. It works good but the back foot is a pain to take on and off. I just loosen it and slide it up off the highback in the lift line. I like what you've done I might try that with my Ntypes. how did you attach them to the boot?

[refried]

I have been just wrapping the booster straps around the boot and the high back. It works good but the back foot is a pain to take on and off. I just loosen it and slide it up off the highback in the lift line. I like what you've done I might try that with my Ntypes. how did you attach them to the boot?

I just bolted them on with a 1/4 20 bolt and finishing washer on the inside and an acorn nut and flat washer on the outside to keep from ripping my pants. not the best ratchets but they work and don't release when I accidentally hit them like the others I tried.

[Dave ESPI]

My "returning instructors" meeting is Nov 2nd. I'll find out if there will be any flack about my teaching in hardboots, but I doubt there will be. If there is, I'll just slap a set of my late 1990s Buton Custom Freeride bindings on an alpine board and set my angles higher.

LET THEM EAT CAKE !

[Bullwings]

Main point i was making is that softboots are not hardboots, and hardboots are not softboots.

I have both setups, and they're both setup to carve - tried the jibber thing - i suck and have no skills.

Last season when i got my FR2s, i was so sure i was going to put a booster strap on for the third strap, but before i got to modding it, i went out and rode it with just the two straps. the third strap never happend after that. i was so happy with how the fr2s felt as is.

Haven't been back on HBs since breaking my tib-fib and the addition of new hardware. I'll probably try the HBs out again for a little bit this season.

Anyway, I admit my ignorance since i've never tried the third strap - so I wouldn't know. I'll definitely give it a shot this season - I'm gonna be on SBs for a while, at least until the hardware comes out. I don't think I can commit to HBs as much as I'd like to with that stuff in there. I might as well do what i can to make my softy setup hardboot like.

Oh, and I definitely agree with you (Dr. D) about soft conditions. I'm never riding my HBs in more than 4inches of powder. Also, in slush last season, I was so happy to be on softies - i could feel when i was powering the nose too much and back off. In HBs, i'd probably have flown over the front before I got the chance.

Like Jack said though, night/day difference. I'll have to see what the third strap can do though, since i haven't given it a shot.

[Dr D]

We had so much snow last season that the groom never really solidified. In my mind it takes 3 nights of grooming to really firm up the groom. IT snowed nearly every other day all winter up to closing. HB carving conditions weren't that great a lot of the season. We never really had any boilerplate days either. Come to think of it we never had spring conditions either just soft squishy groom and tons of POW

I had a blast running alpine boards with softies and never went over the nose once. soft groom is a killer especially if its in pockets and surprises you. With a surf rodz or an all mountain carver it was dreamy and I ran full on GS alpine boards the same way with good results.

[Jack M]

Like Jack said though, night/day difference. I'll have to see what the third strap can do though, since i haven't given it a shot.

Definitely try it. One of the reasons I thought I would never want/need hardboots is because when I went from 2 straps to 3 straps, THAT difference was night and day too.

[Dr D]

Until rental shops have hardboots and good alpine boards the only exposure most people have to our sport is watching the 2 or 3 of us that exist on most mountains. They look at our gear and say wow I want to try that but then they find out what a set up costs and how hard it is to get it to fit right etc etc. They decide its to hard or to expensive and they walk away.

Clearly Hardboots are the pinnacle of snowboard genetic development however there is a huge range of gear in between halfpipe and hardboot.

Many people already have this gear and some of it will give them enough stoke carving to get them to move up to Hardboots. It is the feel of the carve that we are working towards not some elitist BS that one cannot exist without hardboots.

The idea is to get them into our sport via baby steps. A directional board three straps or sme other combination that approximates the control and feel of carving. Most of us old timers progressed with the sport as the gear progressed. I started out in sorrels and duct tape:freak3: How did I end up here today? I bought three straps and tried them. I put skiboot liners in my sorrels etc. when plate bindings came out I bought them and used my rear entry ski boots. etc etc ad naseum.

Our sport is dieing because our elite gear has priced itself out of the market. If we don't find a way to build a bridge between ourselves and cheap jibber gear we will become extinct when the last guy my age dies.

So FLame away and contribute to the problem or become part of the solution and contribute dialogue that might be helpful to the cause or at least shut the hell up:smashfrea

[carvedog]

The reason we haven't commented is out of respect for the OP's unique situation.

Softguy's comment "basically gives HB performance with SB" is the stuff flames are made of.

You got a mouse or ?? in your pocket, or are speaking for a vast group of hard booters that you have been elected to represent on the board cuz it's too volatile for them????

Soft Alpine= flacid sex

Is the stuff flames are made of.

I am as dedicated a hard booter as there ever was. Softies don't work for me at all for the most part. That said, on the right feet I have seen some pretty amazing carving being done in softies.