carving softies... weak ankles?

[Dave ESPI]

First, there's a reason no one makes 3 strap bindings anymore and it's not that every single snowboard company has it wrong.....

ANNDDDDDD>>> that would be ?

Second, riding softboots above 30 degrees makes as much sense as riding hardboots below 30 degrees......you just turn what is an asset at one set of angles into a liability at a different set of angles.

2 strap, yes. 3 strap, no.

Sorry, but I'm a firm believer in how and what I ride. 38f/28r on my 163 is perfect in the 3 straps. When I ride a similar board with just 2 straps, It is 28f/18r

Its all about comfort and your personal ride style.

FWIW, I have a Rossignol "THE MINI" 121 & I'm running 22f/-22r so then ?

Mind you this thread is purely based upon opinion..........

[carvedog]

Well.... that's why I got this board though... because it was represented as a good fast softie carving machine. It's really stiff tho (me = 164, so it's all relative), so to get the board decambered takes some effort on my part.

Sounds like the solution is a softer board? And riding slower?:(

No, the solution is to not generate so much g-force load at the bottom of your turn. Try pushing out harder to the side. As in a bank shot off the edge ( middle or anywhere for that matter). Bend the board in the middle of the turn not the bottom. I could be wrong on this. YMMV.

When I am carving hard ( soft of hard boots) the most force I generate is at the arc part. When I am at the underscore it's over I am going to the next turn with no gforce loading.

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[shawndoggy]

When I am carving hard ( soft of hard boots) the most force I generate is at the arc part. When I am at the underscore it's over I am going to the next turn with no gforce loading.

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Right, of course. It's in the middle of the arc that I'm having the problem. But after reading here, maybe it's time to go back to my old ways and try slightly more aggressive angles. Figured that I was old school with my "positive" angles and that I should be standing sideways in softies. I'm gonna try running 21/20 or so (which is what I've run in the past on an old soft setup) and see if that does the trick. It ought to help with the heelside boot-out in any event...:rolleyes:

[Dr D]

No, straps are foot-numbingly tight.

What, specifically should I do technique wise or proper-input-giving wise? Basically my turns feel great up until the g-load gets too high and my ankles want to cave.

You are trying to hold a wider board up on edge without fully committing to the carve. IF its fighting you it isn't up on edge far enough.

lay it over. With hard boots its much easier to manage the transition because you can lean on the cuff to some extent. If you lean on softie cuffs they fold so work on ankle strength and tip the board further up on edge. if the board doesn't like that you need a better board for softie carving.

oh yeah and I ride 45 / 45 plus or minus with mine. there is actually an area in the middle thats harder but once you get to 55+ it gets easier again. different but easier more like a skwal.

I ride with my toes and heels on the edges whatever angle a given board requires. You generate the most power to the edge that way without bootout.

[newcarver]

I have been carving a lot in softboots recently since my hardboots busted. It is a good bit of fun with the right board but my feet hurt pretty bad after a full day of riding. I ride with around 28-34 F and 15-20 R, which works well for me. Like said before, try to get boots on edge. I don't think it is possible to do it in great comfort without hardboots though. My new boots were delivered today. I'll be back on plates this weekend unless it is a powder day:biggthump

[roscoe]

Im still getting over a high ankle sprain from this fall, and here's what the PT guys told me to do

- calf raises

- get a stretchy band and put it around the ball of your foot and hold the other end in the your ... you have four motions

- extend foot forward

- extend left or right

- pull your foot back towards your body

- stand on some kind of squishy material (a gym mat, one of those blue half-ball things people use for abs, etc), and do your calf raises, squats, etc - all work the stabilizing muscles

[Slim]

One other option you might consider is to check and see if you can reposition your ankle strap so that it is mounted higher up your ankle, providing additional leverage for toeside edging.

Most of Burton's high-end bindings offer this adjustment. You'll find you gain additional leverage by mounting the strap and ladder on the highest holes closest to your heel (Burton's default is center-hole mounted).

<img src="http://i30.tinypic.com/2qbyey8.jpg" border="0" alt="Move the ankle strap-mounts for additional toeside leverage and support.">

The trade-off is a bit less ROM out of the ankle joint.

[bobdea]

ohh yeah, forgot about that, it does help.

[newcarver]

On those burton bindings, does it help to rotate the highback?

[bobdea]

yes, for heelsides

[John Gilmour]

Burtons heel cup protrudes so far on many of their bindings that instead of booting out- you "binding out" at high heelside angles.

You can use the center binding discs to move your self inbound a bit on the front heel... but still your heel will not be over the heel edge..

You can ebay the burton bindings and get a good Drake or Union or Catek Freeride binding which has a nice narrow heel band which will allow you to get your heel directly over the heel edge.

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[powell1.8]

I thought the three strap bindings went extinct in the early nineties, and for good reason. I thought they were going to be great. I rode them one day and ripped the third strap off. To limiting. If I want that kind of restriction/support, I would use hardboots, which I now do.

We actually removed our highback and cut our boots down for a while there, way back in the day. That was great for ROM. Kids do the strangest things, but talk about ankle stregth.

I've been working on dialing in my soft boot setup myself and have found that I must have lost some of my ankle stregth from riding hardboots. Back in the day I was always doing some sort of ankle exercise, which helped tremendously.

In my opinion ankle exercises are the foundation on which to build. Good equipment is very helpfull, but ankle stregth is key.

I like the idea of playing with strap location and binding angles. I personally like around 10-15 rear and 25-30 front. I can still ride swackie that way, but maintain decent form on heelsides.

I recently purchased lift plates to run lower angles, but have not had a chance to try them out yet. I have a problem with "binding out" on heel sides myself. I'm hoping the lift plates help. That and new bindings.

Thanks for all the suggestions on bindings, I have not found much info on good softboot bindings. Then again, I wasn't looking too hard.

Thats my two cents, and that probably what it's worth.

[bobdea]

Burtons heel cup protrudes so far on many of their bindings that instead of booting out- you "binding out" at high heelside angles.

You can use the center binding discs to move your self inbound a bit on the front heel... but still your heel will not be over the heel edge..

You can ebay the burton bindings and get a good Drake or Union or Catek Freeride binding which has a nice narrow heel band which will allow you to get your heel directly over the heel edge.

the cateks with the carbon back on are thicker than burtons but with the plastic backs are thinner, I'll post pics in a day or two. the cateks with the nidecker high back basically make it like you're riding a size bigger boot. What happens is that the plastic back in contact with the heel hoop but if you use the carbon back there is a gap of a half inch unless you drill a new set of holes. I might do just that at some point if I feel motivated.

Nidecker 900s have allot of back on them too.

[John Gilmour]

Pretty simple. great to do as a car passenger one the way to a resort or afterwards on way home.

Throw one leg over the other.

grab your ankle

Do 3 sets of 30 (1 min rest btw sets) counter clockwise rotation of ankle while pushing upwards with your hand

make sure if your ankle "Clicks, crunches etc." to reduce the size of the circle ... you can increse the size of the circle until your ankle clicks... ..Slowly overtime, your muscles will help to support the ligaments better and the ligaments wil shorten and your ankle will stop clicking..then you can increase the diameter of the circles you trace with your ankle- until you reach maximum range of motion with maximum resistance.

Increase the resistance slowly- you should only be really tired for the last 5 of each set. You don't want to introduce trauma to a weakened ankle from a previous injury.

Do the first 3 sets clockwise... then do counter clockwise (you may have to work up to your 30 reps... like start with 15 reps first).

Now work the opposing muscle groups by doing the same exercise while PULLING on your ankle so you have to pull up (Dorsey flex) to make the circle..same reps.

Whenever I blow out my ankles from a bad wipe out this cuts my return to slope time in half.....

Do them every other day without fail- mornings are better than evenings.

I ride softboots a few times a month to make sure my ankles don't get weakened from being in hardboots too much (Which act like a cast) I also get out of them as soon as I am done riding and get into DC loafers.

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Weedtracker

[John Gilmour]

John,

Are you using those Force DLX bindings in conjunction with a pretty stiff boot? I'm needing to upgrade my boots and/or bindings -- they are both only moderately supportive ... and wondering if my best investment is in boots or bindings.

Michael

Yes I ride Unions Force DLX with old malmutes.

I greatly prefer the straps on this year's binding.. but Vin From OUT OF BOUNDS gave me a killer deal on last years when RADIO in Aspen ran out. The highback on this years is also better.

MY ultimate binding would be some polyethylene platform with heat gun molded curled edges to cup the boot bolted to the catek platform with the DLX straps and highback.

I think a highback that has no give- acts to stiffen your calf in a chatter type situation,,,and then you get more chatter. A highback that can absorb some inital shock and pain by deforming a bit helps you relax and absorb the snow imperfections without bracing your ankles. The key is to have a highback that has some give at the edges but firmness elsewhere with a smooth blending of flex to no flex. Just like suspension needs travel to work. All IMHO... it's just how I am trying to describe why it works.

Some people years ago used to put plastic boot tongues over their softboots... I think Gerry Morse from Flite did this...almost 25 years ago.... I have no idea if that would help..

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Toyota Hilux Surf

[bobdea]

as you can see the gap between the hoop and the high back is bigger with the nidecker backs on the cateks, it's not that big of a deal but enough that I notice it riding.

I like the carbon backs better but I agree with you that backs with a touch of give is the way to go, the thing is that the plastic back that comes with the freerides is too soft for me.

[Bullwings]

This seems to be the softy thread to post in for now, so I have a question.

Today was my first time back boarding since breaking my leg (usual tib/fib), and I was on a Tanker 182 with burton cartels and some riser plates. It was awesome, and all I can say is that i've never carved like that on a soft setup.

So, my question, what can I do about the pain my high back on my front foot is causing me? I found that after 4 hours of riding, pressuring my high back was starting to hurt my front leg, but if I didn't pressure it enough, then my edges wouldn't hook in, and I couldn't carve. Then again, the pain might be because that's the leg I broke, but it might also be something that I'm doing in general - I'm thinking and hoping it has less to do with my leg and more to do with my technique. The pain is mostly at the back of my calf. Oh, btw, I'm riding angles of 33F/27R.

[k2slopesurfer]

the cartel "skybacks" in the larger sizes have been known to dig into the calves, especially with boots that are a little lower, most of my buds who ride cartels say that rotating the highbacks helps alleviate this problem.

I also ride cartels, but as i'm in smalls the highbacks are lower and i havent had issues.

Will say though, that my idioms (japanese release co2) are some of the best softy bindings i've had.

Has em on my 3800 this past weekend ON THE GROOMERS, and had a blast! Recon said even he was impressed by the setup, I think hes now in the market for a 3800, and will probably try to snag a set of co2 highbacks for his cateks.

[newcarver]

Bullwings, you are not alone in your calf pain. I noticed this same pain in my front leg when carving hard. Feels like the top of the highback is digging into the muscle. I even put the highback at the least amount of forward lean. I think this is just the way it is with all the pressure on a heelside turn. I wonder if more forward lean will require less leg pressure?

[John Gilmour]

the cartel "skybacks" in the larger sizes have been known to dig into the calves, especially with boots that are a little lower, most of my buds who ride cartels say that rotating the highbacks helps alleviate this problem.

I also ride cartels, but as i'm in smalls the highbacks are lower and i havent had issues.

Will say though, that my idioms (japanese release co2) are some of the best softy bindings i've had.

Has em on my 3800 this past weekend ON THE GROOMERS, and had a blast! Recon said even he was impressed by the setup, I think hes now in the market for a 3800, and will probably try to snag a set of co2 highbacks for his cateks.

I am selling my 3800. I mounted it but haven't ridden it. email me at my name at rocketmail.com

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[John Gilmour]

Bullwings, you are not alone in your calf pain. I noticed this same pain in my front leg when carving hard. Feels like the top of the highback is digging into the muscle. I even put the highback at the least amount of forward lean. I think this is just the way it is with all the pressure on a heelside turn. I wonder if more forward lean will require less leg pressure?

The way to alleviate the calf pain is to change the way you initiate the turn. IMHO

I used to lever off the highback most of the way into the heelside turn. This caused pressure against the highback which was high presure because my center of mass was way behind the tilting of the board. So basically.. the highback is digging in while your foot is pressuring the other side of the board to maintain pressure. Ouch... most people do it this way too...hmmm.

IMHO if you have more than say 5lbs-10lbs of pressure on your highbacks..

you aren't dialed in in either your binding mounting.... or perhaps your riding technique.

I've been riding hardboots since 1984 and I used to get mroe pain at the top of my hardboots.

What I did to reduce this is to shorten the lever arm between the edge and the pressuring point in the sole of my boots.

My friends call it "gilmour offset or gilmour bias" they just call it that because I'm the one that introduced it to them.

I pick my stance angles that are comfortable and then I shift my front heel towards the heel edge and the rear toe towards the toe edge. So my feet are no longer centered on the board.

Being a pro skateboard racer I have looked at many other racers in many non rigid binding board sports and indeed the top guys rarely seem to ride on the board centerline. Even surfers... many shift their feet from the centerline to get more leverage.

This has the addittional benefit of shifting your hips so you can see better (look over shoulder) before going for a heelside.

The key is to get your heel ACTUALLY over the heelside edge- with a tiny bit of overhang. Tip your board to 70-80 degress and move the heel over as far as you can without booting out.

Now to NOT get highback pain... to start your heelside edge carve... just step on your front heel. That's it... just step..(and it works if you set up your bindings properly and are moving on snow) . the board will begin to veer to the heelside. NOW quickly move your body over the edge and further to the inside. (your board won't go into a slide because it is already minutely carving) You can also do Nearly endless traverses without getting tired this way... (your anterior tibialus will thank me...lol)

Now the board will pop up on the heelside edge with virtually no highback pressure. (ONLY If you put your bindings in the right position). You could nearly heelside carve without highbacks (Just like when I started snowboarding....lol).

You can then add a little highback pressure if you like... but since the board is already nearly starting to tip you won't need to add much at all. Just a quick tap and the board is already heeling over... now... if you substitute DOWNPRESSURE instead of LATERAL pressure..the board will still continue to tip. Voila...no pressure on highback.

To further relieve pressure on the front highback... tilt your forward lean on your rear highback more.... than your front one. So the load will be spread over both highbacks not just burdening only the front highback.

Your rear highback will come into play later into the turn to help take pressure off the front and also to assist pressuring the edge of your board after the center of the board.

Now just follow through your carve staying low.... you might even want to add a little downward boot pressure with your rear hand on your rear binding to help auger in the edge more over choppy stuff to make sure the edge remains set... IF you're haulin'..... this of course is only for higher edge angles.

If you feel your rear leg only pressuring the very forward corner of your rear highback..... you either need to rotate your highback more .... or lessen your rear angle a few degrees.

About feet in boots.

Over front boot move your toe strap inward to prevent your foot from rising in a heelside turn. If over teh toenails... your toes will just bend in your boots.. (forget those funky toe wrap straps....)

for the rear foot- move your toe straps over where your toes enter your foot (so that when you go for a toeside your toes don't just flex absorbing your movement instead of translating it into edge pressure)....instead you pressure your edge because the toe strap removed that degree of freedom.

So in essence... your bindings are completely set up asymetricallly.... toe straps, heel straps (perhaps..but often not needed to be set differently... you can move your rear heelstrap down to allow your knee to go lower toeside...though I rarely bother...) ...even your heel cup might be extended on your front binding..and retracted on your heel binding.

All you are trying to accomplish is to make it so you don't need much body movement to swap from toe to heel edge.. You want the board to feel stable when flat so you adjust your highbacks as needed so the edge does not engage instantly... instead you start with either stepping on your heel or your toe.....

This all is worthless if your board is too wide for an angled stance and you end up more than 3/4 of an inch inbound on your front toe or rear heel... always start with an appropriate width soft boot board.

Which.... is why I am selling my 3800... I have 9.5 feet and it needs a rider with 10.5-13's

There you have it... some of the secrets of soft boot carving and setting up for success... now isn't hardboot carving simpler??? Don't you appreciate your hardboots more???

I only ride softboots if the terrain is not super steep (Yes I can carve steeps clean in soft boots.... but why bother in soft boots when it is like 20 times more fun on alpine decks) ... or I'll wear soft boots if I have errands to run in town afterwards- or if I plan to be turning screws on the hill.

This does work though...

Ahem.... but now......... if you want your board to work similar to an alpine baord...... you'll need a special ASYM tune for soft boot carving.. Then it does get far far far more interesting... but for every board it is a little different.. You have to mark the contact points and then flex the nose and tail and determine where the pressure is being applied most both heelside and toeside...(now bevel and side edge as needed to try to fix the screwy flex pattern for carving) that takes too much typing (besides I've only started to research this this season) ....even for me.... I'm hungry... BYE.

Skiers abandoned leather boots years ago.....at least they got that right.

JG

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[Rob Stevens]

I love that.

We touched on this in another thread, where people think more about edging, or pushing into the highbacks to turn by generating edge angle.

IMO edge angle is overrated.

Pressure in the right spot, without a ton of edge angle will make the board come around better than leaning the **** out of it.

Anyplace you need the board to hook up just think about pressuring the right spot and keeping that spot below your core, advancing front, middle, back through the turn.

Also heed the above to get the most out of the varying ways you can set up better soft binders to avoid pressure points.

If you really want to feel this at work, ride an alpine board in powder and try that high-edge-angle ****.

This is not to say that 80 degrees of edge angle is not the ****, because it is, it's just not always the ****.

[newcarver]

Thanks for taking the time to type in all that info:eek: Only reason I have been carving in soft boots is my hard boots were broken. I have a new pair of boots now so will be back on the carve stick. Will try some of the binding settings for my softie set up. It should help with all riding, I would think. Lots of good info.

[k2slopesurfer]

check your email

[John Gilmour]

Thanks for taking the time to type in all that info:eek: Only reason I have been carving in soft boots is my hard boots were broken. I have a new pair of boots now so will be back on the carve stick. Will try some of the binding settings for my softie set up. It should help with all riding, I would think. Lots of good info.

I also rode soft boots because I melted my liners to my hard boots...Hmmm Head boots have blax written under the plastic...lol..

good luck with everything.

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