shawndoggy Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 So I've really started to get the hang of my carving setup this year, but I'm still an intermediate at best. When I'm with my kids, I like to use a soft setup (Atomic Don 170, Burton Cartel bindings, Salomon F22 boots) because I am more confident and the setup is more versatile for variable conditions. That said, on faster toe side carves it sometimes feels like I'm going to fold my ankles. Not so much on the heelside with the support of the binding. Is that common? Are my ankles just wimpy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Quite common. Try to find some older 3 strap bindings, or a locking highback set up and construct your own . You will find the addition of a shin strap will solve this untill your ankles get a bit stronger, and it will also just help you relax the tarsel tendons a bit more. HTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 That said, on faster toe side carves it sometimes feels like I'm going to fold my ankles. Not so much on the heelside with the support of the binding. Is that common? Are my ankles just wimpy?Yes, it sounds like your ankles are weak. While not the same as hardboots and plate bindings... a pair of Salomon F22 and Cartel bindings should give you plenty of support unless you are cranking really hard, fast carves.Instead of covering your "Achilles heel" with plastic armored boots and metal bindings... first try instead to get rid of your weak point entirely. A simple exercise is the "Ankle Alphabet". Simply raise your leg and "write" each letter of the alphabet in the air with your toes by flexing and rotating your ankle. This can be done anywhere at any time so no excuses. Once you can do that without tiring... do both upper and lower case. That should make your ankles plenty strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yes, it sounds like your ankles are weak. While not the same as hardboots and plate bindings... a pair of Salomon F22 and Cartel bindings should give you plenty of support unless you are cranking really hard, fast carves. Well, yeah, it's definitely the hard fast carves that expose the issue. Like when I'm really laying into one and it feels like something's gonna give and the first thing will be my ankles. Thing is I am a pretty avid cyclist, logging 500 or so hours on the bike a year... so I thought I had strong enough ankles. Alas, I guess I'm getting old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 in the other thread I suggested avoiding three strap bindings and I am gonna do it here. they are like using edgy wedgies with adult skiers, just creates bad habits and robs riders of beneficial movement straps not tight enough? if it's not that just work on technique, could just be you're not giving the proper input or you have weak ankles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Gilmour Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 http://www.unionbindingcompany.com/bindings/force_dlx/asadachi_ii The straps really help support you on toe sides. Then - if you want to go nuts get the catek freerides and transfer those straps. You'll gain canting adjustability too- for really setting deep carves. That should eliminate any ankle issues. I have the weakest ankles of anyone- and can only overcome the issue with technology I typically sprain mine in a hard boot wipe out at least once per year. For the first time riding- I have felt secure ankles with this binding strap. ________ Dilaudid rehab forums Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I think since you've been on plates, it is tough to go to soft boots. That said, I find that increasing your angles (30&25 for me) on the soft boots and setting the bindings back a bit will allow you to generate most of the carving power on the tail of the board and will enable a decent carve. Probably not your ankles, just a little different technique than with the hard boots (not so forward charging). I thought I was a damn good carver with my soft boots, until i switched to plates. The difference is huge, and I'm betting that most soft booters don't know what they are missing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 John, Are you using those Force DLX bindings in conjunction with a pretty stiff boot? I'm needing to upgrade my boots and/or bindings -- they are both only moderately supportive ... and wondering if my best investment is in boots or bindings. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmartshopper Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 http://www.unionbindingcompany.com/bindings/force_dlx/asadachi_iiThe straps really help support you on toe sides. ... For the first time riding- I have felt secure ankles with this binding strap. Is there something different about the strap design that I'm missing, or are they just nice straps? And on the topic of booster straps or 3strap bindings... Since most highbacks are locked vertical (cept the old burtons), the main benefit you'd be getting would be lateral. I wonder if this would end up breaking your highbacks over time... not designed with lateral flexing like that in mind. And don't forget... although I still actually like carving softies better myself (at this stage)... just because Michael Schumacher could still probably beat me in an F1 race driving a Mustang GT - it doesn't mean the cars are equivalent. ________ E12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 .3 straps...just creates bad habits and robs riders of beneficial movement I'm going to completely dissagree with bobdea. I've been rocking out on burton custom freerides for the better part of 12 years, and the transition to hardboots was quite easy as I was already used to utelizing the same movements in my shins, hips and legs with the board response not having "lag-time" for when I "go" to an edge or increase angle with lean. The lateral suport you get with the shin strap at the top of the highback is night and day versus not having one when riding angles higher than 45 degrees. Standard snowboard bindings are just not designed for riding such as the swishing movement of the legs under the body are not the same with left -to- right while facing forward as they are with heel -to- toe facing lateral edges. If you want to carve, carve. If you want to be comfortable doing it in softies and not worry about folding your ankles, shin straps are your friend. I don't know of any "bad habits", so I say GO FOR IT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 straps not tight enough? if it's not that just work on technique, could just be you're not giving the proper input or you have weak ankles No, straps are foot-numbingly tight. What, specifically should I do technique wise or proper-input-giving wise? Basically my turns feel great up until the g-load gets too high and my ankles want to cave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 soft boot bindings are not designed to work with softboots? why in the world would you ride 45 degrees on softboots? Get a wider board or hard boots. soft boots are designed for low angles there are no ways of avoiding that fact, one of the major advantages that they have is all that extra movement, to use a three strap binding robs you of that. you don't know of any bad habits? they effectively take your ankles out of the equation, same as a locked ski boot does. my indys with the BTS actually have a bigger range of motion than the burton "system" 3 strap binding never mind the range of motion I get in a softboot with TWO straps the thing that really tops it off is the Nidecker 900, catek FR and a few others are more responsive than the old three strap bindings anyway so the 3 strappers provide no advantage. Three strap bindings are like a hard booter riding in rear entry ski boots. Something is wrong with you and your setup if you're riding 45 degrees in softboots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 soft boot bindings are not designed to work with softboots?why in the world would you ride 45 degrees on softboots? Get a wider board or hard boots. soft boots are designed for low angles there are no ways of avoiding that fact, one of the major advantages that they have is all that extra movement, to use a three strap binding robs you of that. Something is wrong with you and your setup if you're riding 45 degrees in softboots. No way. Now I absolutely and completely dissagree with ya I have plenty of movement, and I can ride softer boots than anyone without 3 straps (oldschool thinsulate Airwalks). Many people want "stiffer" siftboots because they are lacking the response in softies that they get in hardboots and when carving, there is no such thing as "too little movement" for softboots. When I engage edge of that board and transition, I want that movement to be one fluid uniform change that travels smoothly without delay through my entire body. There is plenty of "flex" to the bindings and boots have movement as well as fine adjustment with ankle response. My rear binding is 38 and the front is 45 on my 163 twintip, and it rides phenominaly well. When I wan tto be more relaxed, I turn them down to 38 front / 28 rear and can plow around with the best of them. If I get anywider of a board, I may as well be straping a 4x8 sheet of plywood to my feet because the response time will be about the same as a 747 jumbo jet doing a victory roll-over and recovering without spilling a drink...... Just ain't happening. * edit: For clarification, I was talking about angles greater than 45 (in hardboots and plate bindings) after transitioning from softies. sorry for confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hey Bob, Do you have any experience with the Union bindings John Gilmour mentioned? Can't tell if they are really any different or if it's just the straps that people like. Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rik Fromdahl Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 i learned to carve on 3 straps. after turning my angles more toward the nose, (40/35) the shin strap really added lateral support and made it easier to incline my board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Well, I'm no expert on current softboots since I haven't put a pair on in over ten years, but I did ride them for about eight and: here is what I have to offer to the fray. I remember trying out the three strap bindings when I was softbooting in the early days, and thinking that the third strap would offer some more power but I ended up hating it. Ever since then, it has seemed to me that a three-strap softboot binding robs you of the advantages offered by both hardboots, and two-strap softboot bindings. I was laying down nice carved turns in two-strap softies back then (though certainly nothing near what I could accomplish on hardboots). I know there are a few people out there that like three strap bindings, but it seems to me that they are a pretty awful compromise, robbing you of the advantages on both ends of the spectrum while offering little benefit either way. They may provide a mild degree of lateral support but in my experience, not a whole lot. -2-strap softboots offer greater range of motion for tweakin it in the air and on park features, they offer the ability to make quick ankle twitch turns in pow/trees for quick and precise directional changes. Most notably they allow you to freely control board angulation via ankle flexion/extension when your rear foot is positioned at a low angle. -hardboots offer enough lateral support to allow higher stance angles, and a more solid foot-to-edge connection that permits more precise control while carving at higher speed and agression levels. They reduce your ability to control board angulation somewhat via ankle flexion, while at the same time, allowing for a more agressive and forward stance. -Three strap softboot bindings rob you of the additional ROM that 2-strap softboot bindings provide, without providing anywhere near the same amount of support that hardboots offer. In my experience, three-strap softboot bindings provide almost no *lateral* ankle support, while restricting fore-aft ankle flexion/extension - this is because the third strap is attached to the highback and even the burliest highbacks of the early nineties did not wrap far enough or connect solidly enough to prevent the strap (or highback) from shifting both laterally and medially. Otherwise, binding highbacks don't have any kind of RAB/BTS/SPRING system to permit fore-aft flexion-extension of the foot beyond what the bindings plastic flex will permit. You can carve on two-strap softboot bindings, but the technique and setup is somewhat different given the equipment and orientation changes. I definitely wouldn't recommend using angles approaching 45deg on both feet (front maybe, but definitely not rear) as ankles have not evolved to support the lateral/medial strain that this will place on them, with or without a third strap. higher-angles + softboots = robbing yourself of critical board angulation control and edging power. I definitely agree with bobdea that riding 45deg on softboots is not a good idea, I would be afraid of damaging my ankles that way unless I were going very slowly over always smooth terrain (hah!). I was riding with a softboot carver awhile ago at killington who had his bindings set up for higher ankles and he was having problems (and pain). Lowered the angles and presto, he could ride happily again with more power, control and less pain. With softboots it seems to me that you want to be able to use your ankle flexion and extension as much as possible to to control board angulation and pressure the edge, as well as absorb terrain, so higher-angles are not an advantage. I can definitely see using a higher angle on the front foot to help with weight shifting fore/aft, but I would keep the rear foot at a fairly low angle. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thing is I am a pretty avid cyclist, logging 500 or so hours on the bike a year... so I thought I had strong enough ankles.Cool... I just biked across Italy in the fall. Cycling will strengthen you calves... but you again are locked into a single track of motion... thing with snowboarding is that your ankles take a lot of twisting and diagonal pressure that you don't get in cycling.I still think it's an ankle strength issue as I'm not convinced your going that fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have weak ankles too. Really bad actually, they click and pop all the time and one certain twisting move can almost drop me to knees. Basically my turns feel great up until the g-load gets too high and my ankles want to cave. This is the crux of your problem. When you load the board so much it hurts??? why do that. If you are going right down the fall line and then throwing the board sideways you will get a lot of pressure. Slow down, finish your turns, add some roundness to the turn and try earlier transitions. If you are doing the turn correctly you won't have those g-load forces build up. I can turn really hard on toes without feeling the g load and pain. You shouldn't need to have your boots numbingly tight if they fit right. I would look to fitting the boots, slowing down and work on turn shape. Oh yeah and keep charging it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hey Bob,Do you have any experience with the Union bindings John Gilmour mentioned? Can't tell if they are really any different or if it's just the straps that people like. Michael I do not, they look nice though. that's the great thing with softboot bindings though, they are becoming a mature product where allot of companies offer incredible stuff. So much better than what was available a decade ago. Boots too, my burton Rangers from 98 are not half of what the three year old drivers are. Kind of like PCs, in 1987 if you wanted a decent GUI you had one real option but now we have a bunch of great platforms to work with serving just about anyone's needs. Board width, yeah older boards that were wide rode like doors. K2 Fatbob, Burton floater and so on but these days they're better and feel just as responsive with the width as long as you don't go too wide. The average snowboard is designed with about a men's size 8.5 in mind and someone who does not rock the board that high on edge. the reason the highback is set at zero and usually rotatable to about 20 degrees is because that's close to the range the binding was built to work at. There's a reason none on the pros ride 45/35 angles on softboots or three strap bindings. I think that it's better compromise to put on a huge lift and ride lower angles than ride high angles on a narrow softboot setup. still though, that's a huge compromise that you'd be better off riding a board that allows you to ride angles that the current bindings and boots are meant to be used at. Ohh man, I need to go find some P1 straps or try the union straps for my cateks, on my last pair of cateks I had the p1 straps and they were amazing, I liked them better than the nidecker straps that are actually pretty great. Also, if I were to be riding POW allot I'd be looking for something softer than my cateks, perhaps the burton cartel or if I could afford them the c60. I guess the heart of this issue is that I understand why people use a third strap but it's because they are creating a problem that they don't need to have with educated choices in the rest of their setup. queequeg, nice post. You're say pretty much what I'm too lazy to type out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furi Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 Hey Bob,Do you have any experience with the Union bindings John Gilmour mentioned? Can't tell if they are really any different or if it's just the straps that people like. Michael Michael - The Union bindings are more freestyle oriented. The straps are super comfy though but all the base plates are plastic hybrid materials. I haven't ridden them myself yet - but a freestyle buddy of mine got some Union Force bindings and they flex quite a bit. They certainly look nice though and have alot of nicer features - toe ramp, padded material under base plate, etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have weak ankles too. Really bad actually, they click and pop all the time and one certain twisting move can almost drop me to knees.This is the crux of your problem. When you load the board so much it hurts??? why do that. If you are going right down the fall line and then throwing the board sideways you will get a lot of pressure. Slow down, finish your turns, add some roundness to the turn and try earlier transitions. If you are doing the turn correctly you won't have those g-load forces build up. I can turn really hard on toes without feeling the g load and pain. You shouldn't need to have your boots numbingly tight if they fit right. I would look to fitting the boots, slowing down and work on turn shape. Oh yeah and keep charging it. Well.... that's why I got this board though... because it was represented as a good fast softie carving machine. It's really stiff tho (me = 164, so it's all relative), so to get the board decambered takes some effort on my part. Sounds like the solution is a softer board? And riding slower?:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBump Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 First, there's a reason no one makes 3 strap bindings anymore and it's not that every single snowboard company has it wrong..... Second, riding softboots above 30 degrees makes as much sense as riding hardboots below 30 degrees......you just turn what is an asset at one set of angles into a liability at a different set of angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted February 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 lest I confuse anybody about my atrophied ankles, I'm running low angles on my softies (approx 5 rear 10 front). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 lest I confuse anybody about my atrophied ankles, I'm running low angles on my softies (approx 5 rear 10 front).Huh... I would say that's too low... I would have my front foot at 21 or 18 at least... back foot from 15 to 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 I can't ride at 10 and 5 but one of the best riders I know rides 15 in the front and negative 5 in the back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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