Bordy Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Had a set of bindings dent a metal board here during the WTC then a few days after the dent was noticed the board folded at the dent (back foot). We were of course using binding recommend by the board manufacture, and "suspension kit" however no Plex Plate under the binding. The dent was made with one type of binding and the board failed with another. We took it out the bag on Thursday it failed on Monday. Just a heads up for all the folks showing off their polished metal sticks with out any plex plates. PS I never rode the board it was only ridden as a demo by folks attending the WTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Is that a issue with All manufacturers metal boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Im no Aerospace Engineer or anything... but after soaking in all these metal top boards this is my take on it.. Everything has its weakest point.. In some industries you go through a HALT testing Qualification period "Highly Accelerated Life Testing" where you basically shake the Krap out of something or in this case Ride the Krap out of something and find out where it breaks.. Then you fix it... Then you do it all over again.. and again and again.. Like an Envirionmental Stress Screening. My point being is that the metal keeps searching for its next stress point to fold at or crease at... it went from the binding and I'll bet the next point its going to crease at is at the edge where the plex plate is and the metal.. If the plex plate doesn't have a sufficient chamfer along the edge of it ..it will really increase its chances.. Then what happens..you make the plate longer.. then it seeks out to the edge of that plate.. Soon you will have one big plate over the entire board.. hmmm Called a Topsheet.... Interesting I wonder if any one is going to do that.. Sigi?? Coiler?? Dunno.. Now I can sit back and read your Snappy Cum back...Thats How I know your!:rolleyes: Right Said Shred:ices_ange Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willow 15 Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Has anyone had a metal board snap with poly plates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted February 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Im no Aerospace Engineer or anything... but after soaking in all these metal top boards this is my take on it..Everything has its weakest point.. In some industries you go through a HALT testing Qualification period "Highly Accelerated Life Testing" where you basically shake the Krap out of something or in this case Ride the Krap out of something and find out where it breaks.. Then you fix it... Then you do it all over again.. and again and again.. Like an Envirionmental Stress Screening. My point being is that the metal keeps searching for its next stress point to fold at or crease at... it went from the binding and I'll bet the next point its going to crease at is at the edge where the plex plate is and the metal.. If the plex plate doesn't have a sufficient chamfer along the edge of it ..it will really increase its chances.. Then what happens..you make the plate longer.. then it seeks out to the edge of that plate.. Soon you will have one big plate over the entire board.. hmmm Called a Topsheet.... Interesting I wonder if any one is going to do that.. Sigi?? Coiler?? Dunno.. Now I can sit back and read your Snappy Cum back...Thats How I know your!:rolleyes: Right Said Shred:ices_ange Don't know Shred I have only seen one metal board fail with Plex plates on them, it was of course under the feet of a WC rider, Also as I understand it Kessler is only warranting boards sold with the hangle or vist plates currently. I have also seen boards with or with out the top sheet fail. One argueement for the top sheet is that when the metal cracks or dents you never see it happen. You shoule see what some of the kesslers from a few years ago look like now. At the race level they get a bit worked. I know as long as you protect the metal from point load pressure( which after years of testing on the WC and a shady copy by catek ) the plex plates seem to do just fine the board stays intact. I would ride plex plates on your coiler also. I also would not let me ride it with out the plate since in our testing I can dent a board in one run. Even though the top sheet provides some protection it is not 5 mm thick like the plex plate. Ralph you assuming that the top sheet and the plex plate will do the same thing I don't beleve thats the case. Ok Its stupid deep fresh on the hill and I am going to go Fish it up IN THE POW, with the wife GO PATS~~~~~~~~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Im assuming that the top helps..and helps through disspersion of linear or perhaps radial harmonic frequencies thought out the entire length of the board and not stop at the end of the plate. At this point Im not even sure the plex plate is the answer.. I bet there is better plate material with better properties to dissipate the pressure more evenly throughout the interface. Something that is Stiff..yea has some good vibromatic dampening qualities... Like your head!! ahahhaahddhaaahaha... YOU read this!!! ehhh ahhaahahaa... Now I know for sure... I said Stiff and Vibromatic!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 lol - Shred is an aerospace engineer. Perhaps a slightly longer, tapered plex plate is in order then? Tapered thickness, that is. Hmm, will I need plex plates on my new metal Coiler? (has topsheet) GO PATS!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Im now in panic mode.. I quickly picked up the Red Coiler phone and asked Bruce about this... Won't you know it..he's Out testing this Morning... So Im sending the Bat signal across the lake now...so he reports back in..!! Quick Bruce to the Coiler Cave! 161 has two years on it now... I peeled up the top sheet to see if there were any dents.. I didn't see any.. I remember all the talk about how you don't want any more or additional surface area bolted down on the board as it disturbs the natural flex of the board...now we are saying bolt down 3/4 inch plywood to keep it from breaking...Then when zie vood gets big enough.. we will toss the metal..and ride the plywood.... Dam Bordy...now we will be back to wood skis like Hans in the chalet skiing to his cousin again in Zie Alps.. (always love that story on the lift chair you told).. BTW...Who is Pat? do I know her..or him... Shred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Im now in panic mode.. I quickly picked up the Red Coiler phone and asked Bruce about this...BTW...Who is Pat? do I know her..or him... Shred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Bullet Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Bordy, Which metal board was it? The custom Prior? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Dam Bordy...now we will be back to wood skis like Hans in the chalet skiing to his cousin again in Zie Alps.. (always love that story on the lift chair you told)..Shred I don't like skiing and I surely don't want any lexan plates on my Racy Metal Schtubby either. I think the Schtubby is strong enough because BV made it...We will wait and see what El Presidente BV Coiler has to say about it to SHRED... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Think that Lexan plate is like another plastic/rubber thing, it is safer to ride with it;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I know it was discussed here before, but it even seems that a suspension kit from bomber isn't enough to hold the boards together nowadays. It's liking that I have to go to the garage to make some of these things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hans, i was refering to something totally different Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Hans, i was refering to something totally different May be I can put that over my boots to prevent the snow going in my Track 700 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Maybe if you stack enough chit on in you will be standing on the frickent Moon! To da Moon Alice to the Moon..Humada Humada!! eh Ralphie...:lol::lol::lol: Im not gonna worry about it... Im not good enough Im not fast enough and Im not strong enough..and dam it people like me.. there my daily Affermation! with Stuart Smalley!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 Shred - you forgot the second part. After HALT is finished, you should be HASS (highly accelerated stress screening) every board to make sure it will pass. Plexi helps because the contact point moves further away, thereby diminishing the force applied at the edge, assuming the force applied is finite. I've got Makrolon plates if you need some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Bordy,Which metal board was it? Like to know as well. Also what bindings did you guys use first and second? Thx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I do not know if it was the PGS or a stock Prior Metal, but the bindings that dented the board were TD2s with a suspension kit. Even through the suspension kit, one of the three squared off points of the cant disk left an obvious dent in the metal top sheet. Buell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Glynn Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Used to be sponsored through a local shop to ride volant skies. I loved them they were so damp and smooth. Well the problem was that they only lasted a week or so before I would brake them. It was behind the rear binding and it usually seemed like an extreme cambering( not decambering) situation was to blame. I think metal on the inside of the board or ski is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 I think metal on the inside of the board or ski is the way to go. Obviously time will tell on that one. There should be enough data by the end of this season to determine if the metal Coilers with the fiberglass top sheet are holding up better to the bindings than the metal topsheet boards. For me, if the lexan plates sufficiently protect the metal top boards from the bindings (which they seem to), I currently prefer to go without the added fiberglass and weight. I do find that, beyond the binding issues, the metal top boards are more susceptible to little dents and dings than the fiberglass topsheet metal boards. Perhaps there will be some binding or plate system improvements for the freecarver that will protect the metal boards better than the current binding designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDY_2_Carve Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Two solid days on my Coiler AM-T and no issues so far. Granted I ride maybe 50% as hard as Billy. Just using TD2's w/o suspension. BV gave me no guidance on this so I assumed nothing was required? Now you guys have me paranoid. I'd like to hear back from BV as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skully Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Bordy,Which metal board was it? The custom Prior? I do not know if it was the PGS or a stock Prior Metal, but the bindings that dented the board were TD2s with a suspension kit. Even through the suspension kit, one of the three squared off points of the cant disk left an obvious dent in the metal top sheet.Buell It was the stock board, not the PGS stick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 But Im sure he is busy on the Schtubby X3 now..so he can't be bothered.. Dunno? I don't use a suspension kit either... no problem and going on year 3 for the original schtubby made the old vacumm way.. What wieght added with top sheet...as Mora would say "Are you kiddin me"! Its already lighter!! the topsheet wieghs nothing... and you get the added benifit of designing it your self!! I asked Bruce about this a while ago.. and said it should not be a worry.. so Im riding.. Im sure if it was ...he would say something... Im sure he doesn't want to deal with warrenty issues... Shred.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Don't ask me I don't have a clue:D Time will be the only factor to truly tell on this but there are plenty factors involved . The topsheet has to provide obvious protection but I have yet to scientifically figure how much better it is. When building this way you can also put the materials on top of the metal and this seems to help. If a board dents it should not necessarily mean the end of the board. When the dent ripples out and lifts, then its done. The rippling off depends on the bond strength between the materials and that is a tough one to put a figure on. I assemble with what I feel the best possible odds of the thing staying together. Wood density is another major factor as if you are using a core with softer sections and they line up with a pressure point, thats a recipe for unhappiness! I upped the core density but am not spot reinforcing, I have done this for some test stuff very successfully but it is a lot more tinkering to add the strength in the binding area. With my boards this is what I have been recommending. Cateks need the plates. Bombers have shown no concerns but the plate wouldn't hurt. F2s seem to be pretty easy on the boards and I use them without plates Not trying to piss anyone off but it is simply a factor of the stiffer the binding the more likely you will need the protection. In the early days I did have concerns with the rippling away from the binding area and those issues have been addressed but only time and daily pounding will tell the truth. Now you know why I took so long to get the stuff finalized! So if anyone experiences any issue please let me and others know asap so we can all take necessary action. It all so new, there will be a learning time for all involved. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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