MUD Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Hi All, So, Why do racers run "flexible" bindings and we don't (relatively speaking)? Also, what bindings are the racers typically running? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Ruts. They have to deal with them. We don't. I did a season of weekly club racing a few years ago - skiers and boarders. The ruts were nasty. So much so that I would take crazy stupid lines just to avoid them. I can understand the need for more flex and impact dampening in a race system, however I don't understand using weak bindings and stocking spare parts in order to get it. If I were to race, I'd want a sturdy binding with engineered flex, a la the TD2 with extra suspension kit, and a Derby/Hangl type plate on the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 So it isolates them from the board basically??? Cool. I could see how that would be nice. So the use of a more stiff binding by a freecarver is mostly because of durability, the stiffness just comes along for the ride? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Not so much isolation, but the ability to adjust your balance to get the fastest line through the course. Adjusting your balance/line is critical in all types of racing. In ski racing, race bindings are very rigid, usually set to a very high DIN (release) setting, but because of the independent foot movement, you can adjust balance as needed. In snowboard racing, you don't have the independent feet, so the "give" has to come from somewhere. It can't come from the board, and it can't come from the boots, so it has to come from the binding on a snowboard. Combine an icy course, ruts, and an overly rigid binding on a snowboard, and you are one unhappy puppy.Jack: To answer your question, I think it is a matter of feel for racers. The thing is, for ski racing, I really don't feel a difference in various race bindings on a course. My only requirement is NO pre-releases at warp 10. That's why I will use any binding except Markers (guaranteed to release at exactly the wrong time!!!) For snowboard racing, it is different. I've tried the Bombers w/suspension kit, and for whatever reason, they just don't feel right in the course. Seems like I'm always fighting them for balance instead of them working for me. I have a easier time finding my balance/line on F2s, and to a lesser extent on Catek standard short plates. I tried the Intec stepins for 1/2 season and hated them in the course--way too rigid in the lower foot. Thanks Ken, totally makes sense. That's part of the reason I got rid of my world cups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I can't comment on the race aspect: there aren't enough hardbooters where I live to make a race. However I think it's worth considering the whole system - boot plus binding, not just the binding. I think you get your flex from somewhere: you just have to figure out which bit of the system it's going to be coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I can't comment on the race aspect: there aren't enough hardbooters where I live to make a race. However I think it's worth considering the whole system - boot plus binding, not just the binding. I think you get your flex from somewhere: you just have to figure out which bit of the system it's going to be coming from. That is true. The problem is we don't have alot of boots to pick from, and to tell you the truth, compared to ski boots, ours suck! Not enough market to justify investment from the big companies. And the board is,,,,, well, the board. So if you can control one of the three the bindings are the easiest. I do agree though, they need to operate as a system. Jack and I agree (in an old post), it would be really nice to have a boot that has more tunable parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I think the way sb boots are going is great. In the world of ski boots, in order to get into the tunable types, you're startin to get into the high dollar variety, but over here in sb land, even the most basic boots are quite tunable. My raichle 124s have cant adjustments in the ankles. I can swap tongues or toe and heal pads and I even have options on lean adjusters and such (I have RAB on mine). It is a pain that we have so few suppliers of boots over here, but I'd say we have a much better quality to (relative) price ratio on our side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 I think the way sb boots are going is great. In the world of ski boots, in order to get into the tunable types, you're startin to get into the high dollar variety, but over here in sb land, even the most basic boots are quite tunable. My raichle 124s have cant adjustments in the ankles. I can swap tongues or toe and heal pads and I even have options on lean adjusters and such (I have RAB on mine). It is a pain that we have so few suppliers of boots over here, but I'd say we have a much better quality to (relative) price ratio on our side. I don't disagree PEBU, but look at how little they have changed as well. The only thing getting better is the plastic and the liners. We still have to ADD the BTS.......... My 10+ year old burtons are still VERY similar to your Raichles. There are alot of people that treasure 5+ year old Northwaves because they WERE so good....... Sorry about the tangent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 the two best boots available for snowboarding are out of production. the low end deeluxe boots still have the same safety issues that they did 15 years ago because they have the same shell design. the Head boots are the same as the blax boots from the late 90s......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 which 2 boots are those bob? personally, I rather like my heads... you could even say I love head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 I'm right there with the " I <3 HEAD " My Stratos are super comfortable for my personal ride style, and I have a smaller board that hooks up nicely for the Northeast conditions. I just got my TD2's in the mail <DOES HAPPY DANCE> with the purple elastomers. Hopefully it will be a comfortable set up. I would perfer they came with adjustable cant settings, but ohwell. I think I'll be OK with 0 and 3 rear degrees, but I'll know better in a few days :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bschurman Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hey, I thought that IBEX bought the Burton boot molds and was going to reissue them. Does anyone have any information about this? I know the race plates were reissued by them. "It would be a lot cooler if they did" produce the boots again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 burton and northwave both are dated now but offer quite a bit of potential with a little work. Like the heads and unlike the deeluxe boots both of the boots I mention are built with shells that don't scare boot techs as well are not paper thin. for me as of right now the reason I am in the deeluxe boots is that other than the burton wind it offers the ride I like the best and I can get parts for it although I've not needed any really because the one thing I do have to say is that the AF 700 is the most durable boot I've come across I might go head at some point but we really need new shells, UPZ is the only one that's really stepped up but that shell is not for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Hey, I thought that IBEX bought the Burton boot molds and was going to reissue them. Does anyone have any information about this? I know the race plates were reissued by them. "It would be a lot cooler if they did" produce the boots again. yeah the guy from pureboarding was telling me the same thing but I have not heard any more about this in a year plus so I guess they forgot about it. with some minor improvements that boot would be the the boot to rule them all. what I think it needs: more range of flex front to back with a spring system similar to the bts. the boot already had a decent spring pack but it could be better A liner similar to the head boots or technica has in their ski boots. slightly widened would be nice as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Ibex has binding molds and has been making bindings for a few years, Klug has the Boot mold and if you can come up with enough money to make more he will do it. Rumor is his fires (and several other US riders) are new...But they are still cracking in all the same places... Oh yea and I ride f2s in a race course cuz of the control and board feel, Its not really because of ruts as much as the ability stay balanced and centered. As well as the movement from tip to tail you can make in a softer binding. The board feels so much better. I really like riding burtons on metal boards, but the F2s are more realiable. I break burtons in a single run, (although I have watched 250lb WC athletes never have a problem) F2s last me years, as a matter of fact I haven't broke a f2 binding in a long time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fin Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Klug has the Boot mold and if you can come up with enough money to make more he will do it. Rumor is his fires (and several other US riders) are new...But they are still cracking in all the same places... I know this comes up now and then and I thought I would give the word from the Horses Mouth, so to speak. Chris Klug stopped by the shop two weeks ago during the Race to the Cup. I took the opportunity to ask him what is the final word/situation on the Burton boot molds? Basically he does not currently own them and does not have plans to own them anytime soon. He did do some serious work on possibly getting them but the problem is they are in major disrepair and need a LOT of cash to bring back to use. Probably more then the carving market can handle right now. So it looks like they are still in the possession of Burton and I am sure some day an accountant will come up with a number that shows they can actually save money if they dump them in the trash. Kind of the same fate as the famed North Wave boot. Shame to see and as a manufacturer myself, hate to see tooling not used. And any Burton boots you see in use are original models from that era. Klug said he had his "secret stash" of shells. That is the scoop as i understood it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 Right on! Like I said Rumor Is, Of course Jewell Started it. Funny though last time I saw Chris He told me he was in the process of getting the molds and making boots, Must have fallen through. Chris is a PR machine shame he hasn't made the boot thing happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 with some minor improvements that boot would be the the boot to rule them all. what I think it needs: more range of flex front to back with a spring system similar to the bts. the boot already had a decent spring pack but it could be better A liner similar to the head boots or technica has in their ski boots. slightly widened would be nice as well. And if the heels were intec compatable I bet more people would be buying them. Of course you'd probably get fewer people buying physics. There's always a tradeoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 And if the heels were intec compatable I bet more people would be buying them. Of course you'd probably get fewer people buying physics. There's always a tradeoff. Burton boots are intec compatable... either way neither is produced anymore Physics or Boots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 So it looks like they are still in the possession of Burton and I am sure some day an accountant will come up with a number that shows they can actually save money if they dump them in the trash. Kind of the same fate as the famed North Wave boot. Shame to see and as a manufacturer myself, hate to see tooling not used. So this is just a huge shame, yes? As I understand it Chris Klug does not own the moulds and unless Burton gets back into the alpine game, they will continue to deteriorate further into disrepair until burton tosses them out; and yet burton would expect him to purchase/repair them from them before any new boots could be produced from them? Why doesn't burton just give them to Klug or Bomber, (saving themselves the maintenance/storage costs) and earning a little PR kick out of the deal - it seems like they're no reason for them to hold on to them, given that they don't see alpine as a profitable market for them ... It seems like there is some good that can be done with those moulds in this (somewhat, seemingly) struggling market - and yet while burton refuses to share its bowl with the alpine manufacturers, neither does it want to eat from it. It seems like it's probably naive to mention it, but why don't they just give the moulds to klug or any other party that might someday have the funds to refurbish and improve upon them. It's not like they'd be feeding the competition, seeing as how burton is no longer in the alpine game ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 It seems like it's probably naive to mention it, but why don't they just give the moulds to klug or any other party that might someday have the funds to refurbish and improve upon them. It's not like they'd be feeding the competition, seeing as how burton is no longer in the alpine game ... If they're just going in the trash someday, why *don't* they just give them away and say "you've gotta have our name somplace on the piece" or whatever and get the good PR? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncermak Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 It will be better for burton if alpine dies. we remain a segment ogf the market that they cant tap into. the longer we exist, the less money they make off of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 Why doesn't burton just give them to Klug or Bomber, (saving themselves the maintenance/storage costs) and earning a little PR kick out of the deal - it seems like they're no reason for them to hold on to them, given that they don't see alpine as a profitable market for them ... It seems like there is some good that can be done with those moulds in this (somewhat, seemingly) struggling market - and yet while burton refuses to share its bowl with the alpine manufacturers, neither does it want to eat from it. One word: Liability Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abakker Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 does anyone know what goes into making a boot mold? it seems to me that with the complaints we have about all the shells, and the knowledge that can be gleaned from our members as well as the internet at large, we could come up with a boot mold that fixed most of our complaints. i'd be in for a small investment in coming up with something better. as was pointed out earlier in this thread, our designs are kind of old. on another note, could we design a shell in cad/ some other design software and try to convince deeluxe to make it? i'd preorder a pair if the design was promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted November 29, 2007 Report Share Posted November 29, 2007 ANSWER: a lot of money and injection heat molding machinery. Molds for shells made out of aluminum can run 10 grand each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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