ski boots vs hard to find hard boots

[rider]

HI all...

I'm new to the sport, just bought a used SIMS FC166 set up with bindings, but I'm having a heck of a hard time finding 'hard boots'. Nice pun eh?

Now that the weather's getting warmer, Ski boots are going on sale. Should I just buy some Alpine low end boots? Again, I'm new to alpining, but I have 5 yrs experience carving my freeride Burton Supermodel 163 down blacks and blues.

I'm ready to step it up to Alpine boarding but again, should I just save some dough and time and buy some ski boots. The ski boots I'm looking at have some sorta 'Walking/Skiing mode', which makes me think they should offer some sort of forward and back flex. Is that important ?

What is the difference between Hard Snowboard boots compared to Alpine Skiing boots?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

B... Rider.

[trailertrash]

where do you ride? alpine trader on rt 100 by mt snow has boots and the starting gate on rt 30 by stratton has a wider selection. good luck.

[rider]

Thanks for those suggestions... I ride all over Vt and make trips out west... utah, snowbird, tahoe.

What's the difference between a Ski boot and a Hard boot?

Would I not like riding in ski boots?

I'll see if I can call or get up to those locations yo've suggested in Vt.

B-Rider.

[trailertrash]

i am no expert by any stretch. search on this forum for ski boots.

one thing i did notice when i tried to set up my cateks with my old ski boots was that since they are longer for the same size foot than a snowboard boot. you will have steeper binding angles which may be hard to learn on. i have never tried ski boots on my set up.

[Strider]

I rode ski boots for 4 years. All of the guys at my hill told me I'd ride better and drop my times in the course by .5-1 second just with alpine boots. I didn't believe them, but when I did switch it made a huge difference. The Alpine snowboard boots have a totally different flex pattern that allowed me to "feel" the board better and have better control over it.

I don't think its terrible to learn on ski boots, but if you have to buy something and you don't already own ski boots I'd definitely look for snowboard boots.

[gdboytyler]

I used Kniessl Rail ski boots for a couple seasons and they worked well with wider all mountain boards. The Donek Incline I have has a waist of 24.5 cm (I think). The Rail is a "soft" ski boot. The shell is a combination of plastic and fabric.

When I switched to an Oxygen Proton, with a waist of 19.5 cm, I had too much boot overhang at the angles I wanted to use 54/48. I have now switched to Raichle 224's which have a shorter sole.

The Rail is probably one of the flexiest ski boots available. The ankle flex is comparable to the Raichle. But lateral flex on the Rail is a bit stiffer than the Raichle.

Unless you can find some soft/hybrid ski boots for cheap (around $50), I would recommend spending the extra money and getting snowboard specific boots like Raichle. Buy used from the internet or order new ones from Bomber. I think Bomber allows one change in boot size if the first pair doesn't fit right.

Stay away from the old Nordica SBH snowboard boots. The SBH has a lot of forward lean and that will wear you out. Also if you decrease the forward lean on the Nordicas, the ankle flex becomes too soft.

[jtslalom]

rider,

Ski Stop right off the L.I.E. has some hard boots left. They don't distribute hard equipment any more but they DEFINATELY have some stock left over. If you get the chance go there, go upstairs and specifically ask the the sales person for race equipment. DO NOT pay the price that they ask on any equipment. All the stuff they have is brand new but old. My friend bought an older 99/00 race deck for 50% less than they were asking. I bought a pair of Burton hard boots from them last year for a good price.

To answer your question about hard boots and ski boots, buy hard snowboard boots. I rode in ski boots for 4 years. You are not able to get as low with ski boots. They restrict your angulation so that you tend to ride standing more upright than you would with hard boots.

[rider]

Thanks for all the Great information :) Seems like the big difference between ski and snowboard hard boots are the ... Overhang issue, Lateral flex, and the material used for the boots. Am I correct to assume that the boot angles are different and of a different stiffness?

I'm searching for 26 cm boots at a good price. Any suggestions or links???

I called Burton, and they stopped making alpine gear last year. It was such a blow to me, a newby at alpine boarding. Especially since my free-ride Burton Supermodel 163, and Mission bindings have treated me so well.

Your info is terrific, keep it coming.

[Allee]

There's a heap of Oxygen hard boots on Ebay at the moment. I don't know what they're like, they look OK, and you might be able to score a pair for a decent price. If you go to raceboarders.com and click on the Ebay link you should see them.

[D-Sub]

yeah, I was gonna say...Oxygen blowout on ebay. Its the Proton model, and is a 4 buckle.

thats all I know about it

[Skully]

Bomber has boots in your size, so they shouldn't be too hard to find. There are a few online outlets for hardshell snowboard boots.

If you mean not many retail shops have them, then you're right.

If you make trips to Utah, check out www.hardbooter.com. They're based in Utah, and if you make a trip out here, you could get together with Dave or Mike and try boots on. They don't have a store front, but I'm sure they would be willing to meet somewhere to try boots on. It's getting toward the end of the season, so they may give you a deal also.

[Guest christoph]

On the PureBoarding-Site is a link to their webshop.

Raichle Hardboots are no problem.

www.pureboarding.com

[eddie]

I suggest used snowboard hardboots to start with so that you don't spent $400 on boots you don't like.

Go into the bomber classified board and post that you need x sized boots and are willing to pay y amount of dollars.

[bobdea]

ski boots suck!

they are hell on a toeside turn in the wrong conditions which are exact conditions you need all the help you can get

if you live at butter milk maybe a ski boot will do but otherwise save your self some time and get some SB specific boots

[knoch]

I feel that ski boots work just fine. Sure i've only been using them for 2 seasons, and i've never used a pair of snowboard specific hard boots, but i keep up with those guys no problem.

[philw]

I used ski boots for years, after rejecting the early snowboard-specific hard-boots as being too soft. Hell, they even marketed the Burton ones as "Megaflex". That's the opposite of what I wanted.

I moved to snowboard boots a bit grudgingly but I found that I couldn't get the boot/ binding interface to lock solid with ski boots. I found that the play in the binding interface was more hassle than putting up with the flex of [later] hard boots.

These days I have some Rachlie top-of-the-line snowboard things. They look to me like they're old ski boot lasts with snowboard soles anyway.

Now I have Intec step-ins I wouldn't consider ski-boots, at least whilst I can still get snowboard hard-boots. I'm not sure what the minimum-size of the market has to be before they stop making hard boots. When that happens I'll probably have to go back to ski boots. Even the stiffest soft boots don't do what I want.

[Kent]

Fellas, felllas....I gotta hit the bull**** buzzer here.

You simply can not generalize by saying "hardboots" and "ski boots". I'll stand by my link above that there are "usually" advantages, but certainly not the end-all.

There have been plenty of "snowboard" boots that have sucked over the years......

A good fitting (albiet usually modified) ski boot will perform just as well, if not better, than a pair of snowboard boots. It depends on your application and proximity to a good fitter with an imagination. A 12 pack of beer usually helps as well.

That said, the most popular ski boot for snowboarding was Raichle's Flexon series. (comp was the fav) This boots is still being used by several fellas on the WC...and I believe AP is still using his. I have 5-6 pair sitting in the closet. It was wildly popular because of it's "open throat" construction. Moderate fore/aft mobility and loads of lateral stability. Most guys would rout out the cant mec for a little flex.

So...some might be saying. "Well Fuzzy used Tecnicas" Yep...he sure did. They happend to have the a similiar "open throat" design as the Flexon....and he, as well, routed out the cuff.

So, before we go generalizing about boots, let's make sure we understand the difference in shell constructions....

The newer "carve" series boots would make excellence choice for ski boots.

But, I'd still lean towards a pair of Fin's AFseries (whatever they are called now). How's that for hypocricy? Did I spell that right?

k

[Chris Houghton]

Kent, that's an s, hypocrisy.

The main disadvantage that is undeniable for ski boots is that they are so much longer in the sole than the equivalent snowboard specific hard boot. I guess if you ride 70 degree angles it does not matter. But on a 16 waist board I guess it would.

For someone that is just starting out, unless they have a pro bootfitter to carve up the ski boots, snowboard hardboots would be a better choice. Having said that, I've put more than one skiier (in his boots) on an old Alp and watched them learn to carve in an hour or two...................

[Guest Threeboarders]

Last week I bought a new pair of ski boots to replace my 15+ year old Nordica cement blocks. I had put off replacing them as I only seem to ski while working at the snowboard races (easier to carry gates, fencing etc.) My local shop had Dalbello's on sale, so I picked up a pair of CRX Freerides because they are nearly exact copies of my Head Stratos that fit me so well. The CRX's had some nice features like a walk, ski, carve mode with adjustable forward lean and heel lift and the fact they were only $230 while the Stratos set me back $350. (In Canada snowboard boots have a 18% duty while ski boots have none)

Being a fun hog I sometimes pack both skiis and boards...well today I forgot my hard boots, so I thought I why not try the ski boots on the board. Both are 28.5 with identical sole length so I never touched the bindings. I rode them in carve mode and after a few tenative runs began to feel them out. They are definitely different (less forward lean, stiffer liner tongue etc.) but are certainly useable.

I will continue to use my Heads for riding but if someone was really stuck on using ski boots due to the cost of hard boots or the convenience of switching to skiis, these I would recomend.

-Doug

[Bordy]

It seems like enough people have already come out and let it known!

Ski boots are for Skiing!!!

“So...some might be saying. "Well Fuzzy used Tecnicas" Yep...he sure did. They happend to have the a similiar "open throat" design as the Flexon....and he, as well, routed out the cuff.”

The First Technicas Fuzzy Rocked on tour were Mine, They were a 4 buckle over lap design. And yes I raced on the tour for two years in a ski boot (same technica). Also the boards we rode at the time were as stiff as 2 to 3 stock board stacked. We needed more boot to power them and was a interesting time for snowboard boots( Only stiff enough for stock boards.) The boot Mark And Jasey ( and a few others) rocked was a Raichle ski boot. It how ever was a Team only boot that looked a lot like the Technica, Again 4 buckle not a tongue “open throat“. And Jerry Masterpool had removed a lot of boot to make it flex right. Anton Still rides a Ski Boot and is the only cat to still do so. It is also very modified, When I saw him last he told me he just has to many days on them to get out of them, Old habits dye hard! Plus the Open throat design collapses Laterally and Medially.

Myself, Kildy, and Grandma tried very hard to make a Technica Boot work. It Involved Changing the upper to a Lady's TNS upper while using a explosion 8 or 10 lower with most of the support cuff dremilled out and down.

Fuzzy, Likes the support of the Ski boot as do I. It how ever flexes on the wrong direction, You can dig some sick, lock in turns on a stiff boot but it is very hard to release the tail or initiate the turn. (VERY CRUCIAL) Also it is very hard to start and stop skid in a Ski boot because of the lateral and medial stiffness, Most of the benefits are in the hard sole plate and that is the part we all tried to make work!

Fuzzy did go on to ride Technicas after that but they where made by us tearing through the Ware house and Building Boots from pieces.

Lots of Cats get it on in ski boots just fine, they are making a huge performance sacrifice. Some of them just don’t know any better.

“I feel that ski boots work just fine. Sure i've only been using them for 2 seasons, and i've never used a pair of snowboard specific hard boots, but i keep up with those guys no problem.”

Point made!

If you have ski boots and would like to try Alpine you can do so Boon Lennon style!

1. Never use the top buckle

2. If the boot has a flex adjuster make it as soft as possible.

3. Buckle the lower tight and the upper lose.

4. Save up and buy snowboard boots!

A ski boot will work in a pinch but the boot is priority 1 in your set up. Why start out with a “problem” and make it more difficult to ride.

P.S. It took over 2 years and a lot of pushing from Big Name coaches for me to get out of my Technicas. Some even still pick on me for using them as long as I did. I am So happy I listened! Plus I saw a instant difference in times on a race coarse and that's the proof I needed!

[Guest JohnSch]

Suggestions from anyone as to cuff dremeling or other mods to 3-buckle AT boots such as Scarpa Lasers or Dynafit TLTs to enhance the sideways flex when using these for backcountry? Where specifically was material taken out, how much, etc.?

[Bordy]

Mine (and Jeremy Jones/Shannon Melhuse's) triple-tongued Rossi Raids were every bit worse than ski boots......

Looks like I was a few years ahead of ya.

Kent,

I guess you are referring to me with this statement. And I am “ya”

This is silly folks.

Also I am Inferring you think I am stirring the Pot?

That's not it at all. The “Open Tongue” Boot you speak of was and is a horrible by product of snowboarding infancy.

Raichle based there first boot the SB of a touring boot prior to that, also Raichles ski boots where pushing the design envelope of ski boot with the Flexon and Tongue design. It was very snowboard friendly at the time because of several characteristics. It was the obvious choice for there first try at the snowboard world. The boards of the time where soft and up to 29cm wide stance angles were very low. The boot worked well for the time but also became the last(template) for the whole SB line.

But boards changed and the tongue stayed, The period of ski boot use for snowboarding was due to the constant failure of the tongue design for Raichle riders and the beginning of the rector series for Burton ( And the end of the tongued Mega Flex also based of a mountaineering boot!). Many riders went to ski boots as option because of the lack of gear.( Or Burton boycott) Also the flexon had established its self as the 1 boot to do both (ski and Board)because of the similarity to the snow board boots of the time.

All the other snowboard manufactures started making four buckle boots and life has gotten better since Raichle started the AF project.

Also J.J. only rode that Raid off course( for Photos)and Melhuse was the only guy to use it. Your friend Billy Enos, Jeff Greenwood, J.J. and Marc Bujold. Who where the Rossi Team of the Raid period rode either the 850 Rossi ski boot or the Course ski boot( both softened.) Melhuse was the best slider of the time in a racecourse and it was due to the soft flex of the boot.(but he also blew out and D.Q.ed often in the boot) But those days courses were carvey and the Ski boot worked better. And the rest of the team carved circles around him at the time. I was given a pair of raids that broke instantly, and were passed on to some one else. I rode the Course that Year instead.

Sorry you think I made the post Silly.

Just sharing my opinion and a small side story.

My point was The same Ride a Snowboard boot.

[patmoore]

The first few years I spent on an alpine board I used an inexpensive pair of Rossginol Ski boots and they worked fine. At the time I didn't know there were board-specific hard boots . When I upgraded ski boots and bought Technica Icon Race boots I could no longer ride my alpine board. The difference in the stiffness was remarkable. I subsequently bought Raichle hard boots and love the flexibility.

One note: I was at Pico a few weeks ago and hooked up with a young guy named Eric from Burlington, VT. He was riding a Burton board with regular ski boots (top buckles undone) and laid down carves I can only dream about. I guess it's more than just the equipment.

Pat Moore

[Guest vlad westervaeld]

when i started racing, i was in snowboard hardboots.

when i began training with the cross-m team alongside mark fawcett and mike jacoby, jerry (my coach) told me to 'lose the lame snowboard boots' and 'wear your ski racing boots'.

I showed up at training the next day in my flexon comps, which mak fawcett and mike jacoby were also wearing.

after a little struggling in the gates and extra advice from joker and tara, i soon was riding better than ever before.

when i was last competing, my boots sponsors were technica, then raichle, and i was wearing more normal raichle 4 buckle, non-flexon ski racing boots (F1), and i gained edgehold which scared the hell outta the euros.

if you're serious about racing, esp. on hard stuff, try ski racing boots.

i'm currently, after a several-year hiatus, seeking out a pair of 'snowbaord hardboots', as my quads have atrophied horribly due to illness, and my kees are gone.

as i get my muscle mass back, hoever, i'll be in one of my NOS raichle F1 Skki race boots, again.

i'm shocke dby some of the responses on this thread, by guys claiming that you can't effect certain turns in ski boots. where were you experts when i was competing?

[kipstar]

I am by no means an expert racer, but I do remember 10+ years ago that watching on TV the main Cross M people would be in ski boots for the most part... now watching the Swiss ripping the parallel GS courses over the weekend, the technique has changed a bit and they all seem to be in Raichles....

Having been a ski boot hold out until recently, I'd say for riding around you give up nothing with a soft/modified ski boot compared to an OK snowboard boot until you get into variable snow. Since 99% of snowboarders don't race, this means you are probably ok. BUt on a race course, with icy ruts and supreme variance and requirements for control, I'd say you give up a lot.

But for learning, I'd say a snowboard boot is defiinitely better.