Drive with the knees

[jtslalom]

Some folks believe in sperating the knees. I just knock them together and drive both down into the snow. I guess it makes sense to start driving the front knee then the back but for me it's to much to think about.

[softbootsurfer]

Funny Math aside...my best Carving comes when I have equal pressure on both feet and knees... centered over the center in other words leads to the most responsive turns for me. I call it deadweight in that all my body weight when relaxed is allowed to power down the torso into the board, at least that is what it feels like...this is with softboots, locked Highbacks and added top 3rd straps with front 44 and back 42, also a combo of turns with this weighting takes my Mind to Nirvana :D :) which is where I am now having just come down from Ajax...

[floBoot]

It's interesting to know there are different ways of working the knees...I won't know for a while yet what will be best for me ...

Last weekend I changed my soft boot angles to 36f,33b (up 6 degrees on both feet). I soon got used to this which gives me confidence...

Heel side carve improved even more, and leading with front foot but toe side still got issues...done lots of basic drills that is helping toe side...although I forgot to lead with rear knee on toe side. I found I was starting to use my rear foot throughout the carves...this is new to me..something learned:)

...another thing learned is that I can visualise how flexing my ankles laterally would also help..that's further down the line.

I'm yet to see how this will transfer to alpine set up:)

Edited December 17, 2012 by floBoot

[LambertoMI]

For most of us here, the Toeside carves are the easier ones as they require us to lean in. This lean in then translates into a lean back for heelsides. I find that the more that I turn my angles up (steeper) the easier it is to not sit on the toilet.

A lot of talk about driving with the knees, leaning with the front or back leg sounds confusing. The no hands drill is the best way to learn not to bend over to reach the snow. Think about touching your shoulder to the snow.

I recently made huge improvements so I can attest to the fact that you really need to feel your way through these exercises. Watch the Russian training video posted on the videos section. This helped me visualize these turns and then I could replicate the turns.

Cheers

Lamberto

[Jack M]

Think about touching your shoulder to the snow.

This will probably lead to bending over or leaning in too much. Think about touching your hip to the snow, and keeping your shoulder away from the snow.

Watch the Russian training video posted on the videos section.

If you're talking about the Russian EC tutorial video, I could not disagree more with that video. I think it's bad advice all around - whether your style is EC or not.

[floBoot]

This will probably lead to bending over or leaning in too much. Think about touching your hip to the snow, and keeping your shoulder away from the snow.

If you're talking about the Russian EC tutorial video, I could not disagree more with that video. I think it's bad advice all around - whether your style is EC or not.

The first comment, I had thought the same about the shoulder, as with the boot cuff thing... I have to think bend knees and not to reach for cuff... I must be learning something

The second comment, as dim as I can be at times, I couldn't find the Russian video..I even looked for mirrored-writing as a clue...:D so instead, I watched a YouTube video of Ben Evengy (for about the 100th time:eek:)...he seems to go through the Norm drills..leading onto the laid turns which is my ultimate aim...;)

Edited December 18, 2012 by floBoot

[jtslalom]

floboot,

It seems as though you are riding soft boots. 36f and 33b are angles that are right in the middle between hard riding and soft park riding. When I talk about driving my knees I'm generally talking about hard riding with angles 40 or better. When I rode plates my binding angles were in the 60s to almost 70s. Almost all my edge angles were created by driving my knees and less ankle flexion. Riding 36f and 33b on soft boots you are still going to need quite a bit of ankle flexion to initiate you boards edge angle. I ride my soft boards around high 40's into the low 50's both front and back. These angles are very high for soft riding but I ride my soft decks as if they are hard decks with plates.

I do agree that those videos may not be the best to model your riding after. It looks cool but that is 100% opposite of how I learned how to carve. My advice to you is keep your soft gear but buy some used hard gear. Turn your bindings steeper on your new deck and drive your knees to create board edge angle.

Good Luck

[floBoot]

Jtslalom, you are correct, as I do forget i'm still talking about my soft boot set up, and others here are talking hard boots...

I still find it all helpful and I took on board your earlier remark of your angles on your soft board, that is why I thought to up my anglesto see how I get on...and it has paid off...:)

I do have a hard boot set up, that I used for the first time in April/may this year...quite scary for me to have gone from duck on softies to 50/45 on hard boots...still I had to start somewhere...:)

So I switch between soft and hard, with the aim to be more on my hard boots...i'm doing what I can on my softies to help me acclimatise...as my body would face duck with my feet at 50/45 when on the alpine board, causing me back knee problems and no end of heel side falls:freak3:!...I hope with my recent drills, that i'm more forward when I get my hard boots back on...:D

[tufty]

If you want to get serious about hardbooting, (and, indeed, extreme carving), I would strongly advise hanging up the softboot setup for the season (or, at the very least, saving it for pow days). It's hard to work on style if you keep switching the equipment, stance and angles out from underneath yourself. Yes, it's initially hard, but you'll probably progress further if you force yourself onto one sort of equipment only.

50/45 is a very low set of angles for a hard setup - are you running a wide board with small feet, or do you have boot overhang? If its the latter, rectify it now. That's also a pretty big difference between the angles on your feet - the further you go "forwards" with angles, the less difference you will probably find you need. Remember, it's not -15 +15 duck stance. Bringing your angles closer together should help with pain in the back knee, too, as you'll be torqueing it less. I'm personally running 64/64 on my setup, which is generally ~20cm waist board and 27.5 boots (I'm running 90/90 on the skwal, but that's a whole different kettle of fish).

[floBoot]

... the softboot setup for the season (or, at the very least, saving it for pow days).

50/45 is a very low set of angles for a hard setup - are you running a wide board with small feet, or do you have boot overhang? If its the latter, rectify it now. That's also a pretty big difference between the angles on your feet - the further you go "forwards" with angles, the less difference you will probably find you need. Remember, it's not -15 +15 duck stance. Bringing your angles closer together should help with pain in the back knee, too, as you'll be torqueing it less. I'm personally running 64/64 on my setup, which is generally ~20cm waist .

Aye, my first couple runs this season was powder...fell off poma, crashing into a clump of powder...uplift or the run down had not been pisted...even if it had, being Scotland, and not a lot of base, made the run bumpy and mogully in many parts..

I went straight onto hard boots my first two months, last April/may...I don't mind;) hard work but if I feel i'm going to get an injury, I'll revert...I just didn't understand the alpine board, boots, angles etc...I could hardly stay on the uplift...what i'm saying is I done my best at the time but i'm not put off....:)

I've read and understood a lot more, I now feel confident to try different angles on the alpine set up..this confidence has come about because of changing things on the softies...;)

I didn't realise the 50,45 on my alpine board wasn't steep enough...and I did notice (recently on softies) that when I brought my back foot angle closer to front, then my back leg felt more comfortable...so i'm glad you pointed that out..as that has been my experience...i will keep experimenting as people suggest..:)

My alpine board is 19cm at waist,boots say 25-27.5...they are too big for me but anyway it gives you a better idea of what I have...no boot overhang...

Thanks for your pointers and examples, it helps me put another piece in the jigsaw puzzle of hard booting...without peoples help I would still be totally clueless...

[darko714]

I personally work a variation of driving the knees that I picked up from a euro hardboot racer a few years back at whistler.

Heelside: drive hard with lead leg/knee (master) first then back leg (slave)

Toeside: drive hard with back leg/knee (master) first then front leg (slave)

The acual time gap of which drives first is probably microseconds , but for whatever it matters it works for me, the separation of which leg drives first really helped me on my toeside not to mention proper body mechanics to get my inclination/angulation/shock absorption sorted.

I have a theory on why this might work, lead knee driving first on heelside helps get board up on edge and driving down , (going back leg first just gets you into a locked at the knees "tripod" position), following in with trailing knee just adds to edge pressure, trailing knee driving in hard first on the toeside accomplishes much the same effect with lead knee again slaving in to help out.

Technique helps keep zee knees separated.

Before the flaming lights up this is WHAT WORKS FOR ME in my mental visualization for driving the knees in, use whatever visualization/imagery works for you

Dave*

=======================

Dave, this is a variation on what I was taught by a coach who is a former World Cup racer. I really think it will work for an intermediate rider like me who needs to get the board at a steeper angle to keep from washing out in the middle gates when I'm building momentum. It makes perfect sense and I can't wait to try it (once we get enough snow here in upstate NY!).

You shouldn't get flamed since your advice is sound, orthodox racing technique.

[floBoot]

=======================

Dave, this is a variation on what I was taught by a coach who is a former World Cup racer. I really think it will work for an intermediate rider like me who needs to get the board at a steeper angle to keep from washing out in the middle gates when I'm building momentum. It makes perfect sense and I can't wait to try it (once we get enough snow here in upstate NY!).

You shouldn't get flamed since your advice is sound, orthodox racing technique.

I have found the master slave works for me on heel side but as I said didn't know what I was fling until I read it here....and i'm learning...

...I skid out on toe side where I still lead with front leg....so i'm definitely going to try leading with rear leg to see if it will stop my toe side skidding...

If it works for you guys...

[Puddy Tat]

Just to take the opposing viewpoint.

Your feet don't need to be parallel. They should be sitting roughly at the same angle between them as exists between them when you are standing at rest. Very few people stand with parallel angles so why would you put yourself on a board like that. Typically I've got about 5 degrees of difference between my front and back foot.

I tend to set-up my back foot so it is just within the edges of whatever board I'll be riding and then have the front foot a few degrees higher than that. I then adjust cant and lift to align the boot cuff around my leg when I'm in a neutral position.

My AM deck has a 24.5cm waist 10/12 SCR are 50F/45R. The Schtubby is 21cm waist 13.4 SCR is ridden about 60F/55R and the Prior WCRM 19.6cm waist 15 SCR is set at 65F/60R. Boots are mondo 28 UPZ ATBs and RTRs

Dave

[110/220V]

You can train to "drive" all you want, with the strength of a steer at your "master knee" or however you describe. But if wescott would have employed the driving strategy, he would have lost to SLO Radoslov in 1st Olympic boardercross. Sure, they were on soft--Wescott was on softies, and Radoslov was in hardboots...baba ba.. What you need to understand, is wescott (and a few others) trained a different technique on the hardboot in gates).

Why focus on this event in particular? The SBX is the best training aid to lend efficacy toward Alpine tech. To 'cturn with a soft and you earn the turn on the hard' is too simple and disingenuous for a coach to ask.

Actually, SBX is Alpine event. Don't complain how this is an entire different discipline. Yes, because the driving should never emphasise the arc, as the arc receives the p r e s s u r e (even with noodle legs that an old USOC coach could demonstrate). The point above all is pressure, no more and no less --in order to affect the turn.

When you count on gorilla might as your tech, you will fail when it counts. 30 riders in the world will attest that you can turn with greater efficiency with simple pressure that is required. This is not the might, but the cutting with noodle legs. Too much pressure, you skip out, too little pressure and you slide. This is the old technique that you learn with the hockey stop drill. But most riders have no time to train their ability to master this technique in the drill. It doesn't look nice/graceful and takes months even years with daily focus.

So why even bother, if you can drive the "master knees A (toeside) & master knees B for heelside?" Take it to ice or hardpack Sierra cement with a softie, you will understand and will likely end the experiment with putting on your hardboot set up, and doing the c turn thing to show you aren't as bad as you were that last run.

In the event someone outthere would at least give a couple seasons to this idea, perhaps she or he could break her regular plateau? What is your intention (fun of course) but is it your highest potential? Or your safe game. I don't expect Gold olympic focus, since 25 of the 30 older riders who use this in the world are in the EU coaching kids at spare time. But even if you dedicate to your highest, you will certainly avail yourself the fun as corollary. You might even excel from your previous level, and rider stronger and smarter for your trouble.

Sometimes, looking like a beginner or looking at things with a begginer mind allows you that singular unique perspective that you would not have otherwise. You can always go back to your "master heelside/toeside" technique... if you are too proud to look like a beginner with the daily hockey stopping for your entire on snow time, that is.

Or disregard and do your business as usual, because you have no time for this nonsense. Besides, "it's quicker and fun" to be right, yea?

[BlueB]

I didn't realise the 50,45 on my alpine board wasn't steep enough...and I did notice (recently on softies) that when I brought my back foot angle closer to front, then my back leg felt more comfortable...so i'm glad you pointed that out..as that has been my experience...i will keep experimenting as people suggest..:)

My alpine board is 19cm at waist,boots say 25-27.5...they are too big for me but anyway it gives you a better idea of what I have...no boot overhang...

Oh boy, you are confused...

There is no such a thing as "too high" or "too low" angles... We could argue that blow 45* on front binding is not really alpine technique any more, but let's leave that on the side for now.

Set your rear angle in such a way that the boot is just by the edges, toe and heel, or even slight overhang (you will not EC yet, so it doesn't matter). Then set your front with the spaly angle that feels ok. This would give you the max laverage over the edge and manouvreability.

Boots can not be 25-17.5, you are reading the numbers on the tongue, which is wrong. Read the other number(s) on the inside of the lower shell. It should read something like 26-26.5, in some cases 265.

Last but not least DO NOT RIDE in the boots that feel "too big". That means they are WAY too big and can lead to really bad injury, and your technique suffers too.

As for the knee drive, yes it's there to use when needed. However, it is not the only thing that edges/turns the board. When you hit the rough spots, or something unexpected happens, you'd loose the edge, if the only driving force is pressure of your shins to the boot cuffs. Use just enough.

Both master/slave and simultanious technigues work and can be mixed as needed. Current trend seems to be towards more centered technique (allowed by the better boards) and minimum drive from the top of the boot.

[OhD]

I was taught once upon a time (by Ryan Pinette, an AASI L-III instructor) that a good way to find a starting point for the splay between your binding angles is to jump straight up (on the floor or on snow, in whatever footwear you like), land with a lot of knee flex - even into a squat, and take note of the angles of your feet after landing. Try not to think about controlling your angles, and do it a few times until it feels natural. Try landing in a carving stance and in a "square" (softie) stance and see if the splay is the same. See if you can do a deep squat from either stance without rotating your feet away from the landing splay angles - deep flexure of the knees might require a little bit of rotation of one or both feet (about a vertical axis) from your angles when erect or in an "active crouch". If you have that problem, canting might help, or you may just have some skeletal misalignments that might not be conducive to hardbooting (at least on a narrow board).

Doing the jump test on snow is nice because the friction on the ground doesn't inhibit your feet from rotating to a natural position, and you can measure your tracks, tweak your bindings and go test right away.

Doing the deep squat to set your angles will help ensure that you aren't wrecking your knees by subjecting them to a bit of twisting every time you compress over a bump or in a turn. You still have to be careful about twisting them with excessive rotation of your hips and torso, but those you can consciously avoid. Getting the splay right so your knees both can flex easily gives you the full available range of motion to work with.

Don't fight your own body. One of you will surely lose.

[floBoot]

Blueb, you're darn right i'm confused...:p

On the hard boot set-up, the angles are set as you describe above..but its not comfortable on back knee.....I find my back foot naturally goes for a steeper angle on the stomp pad on the uplift, which is also affected by my body facing more forward. However, the front leg is just comfortable...there's a couple more things that i've noticed that I want to change and try out...then I'll be so much more confident with the angles to use...:D

OhD, I had completely forgotten a few things from when I got my first board..and you brought back that knowledge..I remember jumping into the air in my living room and landing onto my board, then seeing if I could squat etc..

yes, biomechanics is very important...i'm quite a flexible person and don't usually suffer joint issues, so I will mostly certainly be monitoring for joints that have joined the resistance-party

This season will be the start of a very steep learning curve ...which I'm looking forward to...:D

...thanks for comments/suggestions:biggthump

Edited December 20, 2012 by floBoot

[OhD]

Blueb, you're darn right i'm confused...:p

...i'm quite a flexible person and don't usually suffer joint issues, so I will mostly certainly be monitoring for joints that have joined the resistance-party

/QUOTE]

Enjoy it while it lasts... A certain amount of abuse seems to loosen me up in the short term, which seems to be getting more essential as the long term gets more-so. Take good care of that carcass!

[LambertoMI]

Jack,

Your experience and insight here is very seasoned and I usually agree with you on most points. However, while learning to EC (which seems like our friends goal) the training video had some great points to be made about how to EC and turn with your shoulders, look up hill, and keep you body more straight. It had a great example of the push pull technique and really helped me to visualize a EC.

But all things considered, I would advise to first; listen to all advise and take from others experiences and point of view.. Digest, diagnose and then see what works for you.

L-

[LambertoMI]

Floboot,

I too ride with 2-3 steeper degrees on my rear leg with hard boots. I find this is more comfortable with my style. But most do not, most rriders seem to run parallel or slightly less angle on the rear foot. For me, it's what feels right

Your call really, but try them all out

[floBoot]

LambertoMI said,

" But all things considered, I would advise to first; listen to all advise and take from others experiences and point of view.. Digest, diagnose and then see what works for you.“

That is exactly what I plan to do...:)

I'm also aware that the advice that isn't EC style, will pay off in other ways:D

[floBoot]

I have really improved on my hardboots all of a sudden! The past two weekends I have been on them....I usually do half a day, chicken-out, think conditions won't suit etc..i just seem to have adapted:D

On my first black run in hard boots -today, conditions were: mogully, choppy, spring conditions...I put so many tips together, even some that I'd forgotten, like reaching with back hand to front boot cuff and vice versa..I was actually carving through the chop while other snowboarders were doing their usual..who can go the fastest and skidding on most edge changes to get their way down. I know exactly how I don't want to look by watching them:eek:

Up until recently, I have always been a nervous wreck in hard boots, dreading putting them on but knowing I must.

I am also getting used to the feel a railed carve (by accident on my part) but i'm not panicking and crashing out of them.

I've also managed to leave a few 'one liners' in the wake of my board. My toe-edge weakness has improved a lot. I have confidence to go off-piste, spent half of my runs going off-piste.

Perhaps you can tell I've had a brilliant time on my hard boots:biggthump

So much more to improve on and look forward to.

Thanks to all who posted tips:)

PS I meant to say, that I turn by doing EC/Swiss rotational style (i try my best), and carving up hill on the black run was my saviour, cutting the speed and allowing me time to get low before turn and twist my head and upper body to help the turn. I also used the ' push' part of the push-pull technique to control speed, therefore not skidding. it just works so well for me.

Edited March 3, 2013 by floBoot