Carving w/ a Prosthesis

[Guest PowdrChasr]

I was just wondering if anyone had any tips or ideas of how to carve using a prosthetic leg. I just began learning and (as of my second day on the hill) have gotten to the point of being able to get down the hill w/o falling and barely beginning to turn. I have been using my good leg (left) forward since I don't have my right knee and it makes weight transfer easier. So...any good ideas? Any advice anyone here may have would be much appreciated. Thanks!

[Phil]

My wife is a Prosthetist (not to be confused with a prost.....;) ) and I am a snowboard instructor/trainer/coach. We have had many discussions about this. It is a place where our occupations converge. There have been amputees who have successfully made the transition to being a snowboarder. Are you an AK or BK? It would really help to know that.

I will also try to find some pictures of successful BK and AK amputees that have taken up snowboarding. I know that she has shown me a few in the past.

The good news is that at the beginner level, a lot can be done with just the front foot.

So... before really getting into it... what is your snowboard setup? Are you an AK or BK and what device(s) are you using?

If it gets too technical for me on the prosthetic side, maybe she will get a BOL account and chime in.

[tex1230]

I knew a guy way back when who rode with a prosthesis at big bear in california. good leg forward seems to be the only way to go. If you're trying to carve, I'd guess a really stiff boot would improve your leverage.

good luck.

you may want to contact LeeW - I know he has worked with some adaptive programs - not sure if prosthetics but worth a shot.

[Jrobb]

Not related to carving with a prosthetic but I know of an east coast windsurfer who is a BK amputee who still sails at a rather high level of ability by non-amputee standards. You can see a few pics here and some background of his efforts. http://www.activeamp.org/winners/index.htm

While snowboarding involves many minute imputs at times short board sailing is as demanding if not more chaotic at times, especially when you mix in wave riding.

J

[lamby]

Hi Powdrchasr,

There are a couple of adaptive sports programs here is Sun Valley. One is Sun Valley Adaptive Sports , and the other is the Wood River Ability Program (headed up by Marc Mast, adaptive sports director of Sun Valley Ski and Snowboard School 208 622-2248). You might try getting in touch with one (or both) of these groups for some tips.

Here is a link to a ABC Nightline segment that featured a visit by some vets to our area for some skiing and snowboarding.

Good shredding to you!

[Guest PowdrChasr]

Phil-

I'm an AK amputee on the right side and I'm riding a Burton E-Deck w/ a hardboot setup. As I think I mentioned in my post, I've been a competitve skier for years so I have been using my Fischer ski boots and Burton Race Plates for bindings. I think I'm starting to get the idea of how to board but, of course, am always looking for good pointers.

[Phil]

It's late tonight, I taught SB classes all day and I have been grading papers for hours (for a snowboarding class, no less). I will respond more tomorrow when I have some rest.

Next important question: Where are you located?

Look for a PM as well, so we can take the discussion to emails.

edit: unless you don't want emails, you may want to enable the email function of your profile.

[NateW]

A few thoughts from a non-amputee:

I've skied and I've snowboarded hard and soft boots, and hard boot snowboarding seems to me like the best match. Putting your leg forward also seems like the best plan.

A lot of people (most, I think) ride with their stance set back somewhat, which forces you to put more weight on your front leg. Since your left leg is strongest, this sort of setup may work to your advantage. Or, since your left leg is already likely to be the one getting tired first, a centered stance might work better. (I centered my stance to help my front quads last a bit longer.) The only way to know would be to try both ways and see. The furthest forward you'd want to go would be to have the midpoint of the bindings centered; the furthest back would be to have the midpoint about two inches aft of center. If you bring the necessary tool(s), it only takes a few minutes to move your bindings between runs.

Does your prosthetic knee have any spring to it? I can't help but wonder if it would help to have some (and some damping to keep it from being bouncy) to help take some load off of your front quads. That might also help your upper right leg control the board a little more, as compared to a free-swinging knee.

Also, kudos to you for getting out and doing it. :)

[Cindy Kleh]

I have taught people with prosthetics to snowboard (AK and BK) and all of them have their weaker leg (the prosthetic) in front. The back leg needs to be able to skate and do more than the front.

[Guest PowdrChasr]

My knee is hydraulic which allows me to adjust it to have quite a bit of resistance but (unfortunately) no spring. I agree that having some spring in it would be ideal but it simply doesn't function as well for every-day walking. In response to which foot forward, I have also seen many videos of amputees snowboarding and have noticed that they all have their prosthetic leg forward. However, I tried this first and found it extremely difficult to transfer my weight onto my front (prosthetic) leg in order to make a turn. I was also falling constantly. The second day I switched to putting my real leg forward and was able to actually stop (which is a good thing...) and turn the board. I also made it all the way down w/o falling that way. Basically I can roll the board onto heel/toe edge and also skid the board sideways using my prosthesis but still transfer my weight forward onto my better leg much easier. Skating is also easier for me if I have my real foot still on the board (more knee stability).

This being said...

If there is any reason why having my prosthetic leg forward is a must please let me know. Also, if I do it this way do you have any advice on how to transfer my weight forward onto my prosthesis w/o my knee collapsing? Seeing as you have experience in coaching AK amputees any further input would be greatly appreciated.

Whew...sorry, long post.

[Algunderfoot]

Dear Pwdrchasr,

I ride with a friend on mine in the U.P., who is skiing with one leg, but laying trenches with the best of us. This snowboarding challenge is also a subject we have discussed. He and we do agree that he is in fact a snowboard carver. One observation I can then make is that his driving leg is centered over the ski, so setting your stance back somewhat makes sense. (some boards like Prior's 4wd are designed this way) Having a hydraulic back prosthesis for additional body weight leverage and stability should help. Shawn, from Pure Performance, had demonstrated a knee driving technique at SES '07, to initiate turns and edge contact that I think would really work well for you too. It took less effort than the hip, and /or whole upper body methods, and since you are attached to both bindings, should provide the same benefit. This technique simply has one driving their knees toward the edge of choice to load the edge, then getting low to carve the complete turn. If you can drive your back 'knee', with your thigh and hip flexers, this should work. Once the board is on edge, and you are able to shift your weight through both boots as you turn, and you should be golden in no time. Getting the 'feel' for all of this will be much different for you, but I am guessing that you will just feel the board/snow/edges in different places.

You can gain allot of different feels and weight leverage by experimenting with plate position and canting, boot settings, etc. but I can imagine this being quite directionless and difficult without some local knowlegeable advice. Teaming up with an instructor, even if they are there only to assess progress and set backs, should be helpful.

I do have a question for you regarding lift lines and chair lifts, as that is one thing that probably is keeping other amputees away from the sport. Do you get off the board completely, or manage this some other way?

I am pleased to see the number of instructors who have experience in this area, and that have responded in this forum. That is the character I have come to expect here. I would think that this is something that the SES 08 should recognize, and reach out to instructors and riders alike to add this dimension to our circle of enthusiasts.

Just remember that there is no replacement for hours on the snow. None of us here, made riding and carving happen without lots and lots of hours, tips, failures, more instruction, falls, set backs and patience, you won't either. So plan on a long learning curve, then let yourself be surprised that it ended up shorter than you expected. I would look forward to riding with you some day!

Alg

[Guest PowdrChasr]

Thanks for all of the good input! As of right now I'm still on the bunny hill so I haven't done the whole lift line thing with the snowboard yet. However, since my real leg is in front I'm planning on just keeping it that way on the lift as most everyone else would. Of course, skating is a little more challenging but so far I've been able to get around well enough this way. I can completely understand though how this would be daunting if the prosthetic side stayed clipped into the board though since you really can't control where the board swings (aka into other people...their equipment...bad news). I'll be out again this coming weekend and am planning on testing out the lift then...so more details to come!

[jtslalom]

In 1993 Burton had a video called No Evil. It was a video that showed carving with Jean Nerva, Peter Bauer and a couple of guys from Blackomb/Whistler. The segment with the guys from Blackomb/Whistler show a guy with his back leg amputated and wearing a prostetic one. Him snd two other guys were carving on groomers. He was driving some good lines in the snow, especially for 1993 on an asym deck.

[zoltan]

On a marginally related note, I've seen disabled skiers use the ski school line to board the lift before. I'd ask the managers of the hills you're going to if that allowance could be made for you as well.

[SEJ]

RIDE ON! Powdrchaser.

[Fat Old Bastard]

I won't try to give any advice as better minds than mine have covered that but here's a bit of inspiration: Michael Milton 193km/hr !

http://www.michaelmilton.com/Home.aspx

[Phil]

Wow, this thread has gotten complicated - where to start?

First of all, someone suggested an instructor. Where do you live? A good instructor would go a long way.

As far as which leg forward, you already answered that question. Cindy makes a good point about skating and such, but as you look around, you will see a mixture of prosthetics used for front and rear leg. There is no rule, only recommendations. The bottom line is that everyone is different.

Is it that regular is regular and goofy is goofy regardless of amputee status? Could be. Then again, it could be the difference in devices and how they are set up. Maybe some are better suited for front leg duties and some are not. In any case, prosthetic leg front will be more conducive to "windshield wiper turns" because one would tend to try to drive the back of the board around with the healthy limb in back. On the other hand, with the healthy limb in front, you would be more encouraged to do steering movements.

As many amputees have shown, though, skating can be done with the prosthesis as the rear leg. Heelside skating would be more conducive to a prosthesis because of the lateral loading and abduction and adduction movements. Generally ad and ab duction are easier with AK's. As I tell all beginner students, though, toe or heelside skating is generally another personal choice made by feeling - much like goofy or regular.

The other recommendation that I have for you is to get the lowest stance angles that your setup will allow. This will allow your legs to work more seamlessly together. There is only one plane of movement in most AK prosthetics, where there are several in a human leg. This should be capitalized on by using low angles. Offsetting this recommendation is the fact that you are in ski boots which work better at high angles (that is what they were intended for). Should you decide to go with the higher angles, I would recommend considering outriggers:

If that would make you feel too much like you are going back to skiing, just use them until you get better at it and then lose them.

Some more device questions - What kind of knee is it? What kind of foot?

There is some logic that a user adjustable foot should be locked in dorsiflexion to ride. That is good logic, but there are some drawbacks. If you have a user adjustable foot (I know that there is a tech. name for them, but wifey is sleeping, so I can't ask her what it is), it is not made for heavy activity. Also, since you are riding in ski boots, there will already be some dorsiflexion inherent in your setup.

If you are able to lock the knee in a slightly flexed position, it may be helpful as well. Check with your prosthetist about that.

Now for technique. In my opinion, you should learn to ride more with your front foot to start. Most good hardboot riders can ride one footed. The really good ones can carve one footed. Let that be your goal for now. There are a lot of people that I am sure would disagree with me on that one, but I am just sharing my opinion. Let the prosthesis come along for the ride for now. Employ steering and tilting as you would on skis. I am sure that if you were a ski racer, you have done plenty of one footed skiing. This will be very similar. When you get better and want to carve, just employ tilting with no steering.

On a similar note, yet off topic, here is a double BK amputee rider.

More pics:

AK c rail.bmp

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Met A BOLer at SES that blew me away by his carving abilities. I never would have known had he not showed me his leg. Hopefully he will spot this thread.

Good on ya!!

[Guest PowdrChasr]

Phil-

My foot is a Runway by Freedom. Yes, I know that it is user adjustable and therefore not made for heavy activity but hear me out on this one. It is designed to be able to walk in high heels (I'm a chick so this is ok...no offense to any of you guys out there who enjoy heels as well) so in that case basically ALL of my weight is on the toe of my foot. In a ski boot, the boot is supporting the entire foot plus some on the leg section and therefore is not putting as much stress on the foot as simply walking in heels would. Not to mention it's the self-adjustable heel height that allows me to get into the ski boot AND get the right angle to my board. Also, I do have a torque/shock absorbing unit in my leg which allows for roughtly 45 degrees of rotation each way. Bottom line: my insurance isn't going to cover more equipment that I "don't really need" and, as a college student, I can't afford to pay for anything myself. My knee is a USMC Mini Max hydraulic that I can't really lock in a bent position, but I can set it to a very, very high resistance (the drawback here is that it's high resistance to bend AND to straighten). Oh and location? Beautiful (and mountain/snowless) Ann Arbor, Michigan...so instructors are hard to find. My ski coach is also my prosthetist and I've been using my boyfriend (who placed 6th in college nationals) as my board coach. So far...so good. Again, thanks to all of you for all of your excellent input.

[Corey]

Canadian Snowboarder (TV show on SCR - The Score) just had a clip about racing in the adaptive snowboarder program with the Canadian Snowboarding Federation. I captured it with Windows MCE, I'll try to convert it into some type of clip that can be shared.

Most of the riders were in softboot gear on a parallel GS course.

[felix]

Hmm the softboot preference seems strange to me. 2 weeks ago I've seen a hardbooter without rear leg really doing good turns. He did rapid transitions and even laid it down quite well on steeper parts. (both hands touching the snow on the frontside without bending at the waist, backside wasn't as good but pretty solid. On average slopes you couldn't tell he had only one leg. Out of about 20 alpine riders in that resort that day he was clearly the one who rode best and most secure.

His rear leg is only a stump (about 15cm long) after a motorcycle accident. he used a solid knee.

He skis too and scored medals at Austrian Championships for disabled but has not enough time to go for it at the Paralympics.

He told me the following:

1. The skinnier the board the easier as you're closer to the edge. He rode a Hot Blast in 185cm. (He was about 185cm tall and 75kg).

2. The biggest problem he is facing is that his prosthesis allways rips out of the boots where they are screwed into. This is also the biggest challenge for him. He has used some Blax Boots and tried to fix a big Alloy plate inside the Plastic. He then uses 4 screws to lock down the prothesis (it's actually his girfriend who puts the screws in).

3. He can't bend down to the shoes therefore he uses Intec heels. This is according to him the only comfortable solution.

4. He can't accomodate to wide boards. Even in Powder he stays in hardboots and on rather skinny Swalltails.

5. In the racecours he said to have big problems because he can't drift in well, he needs straight courses to carve a clean line. If there are offset gates its difficult for him.

Sorry I had no camera. It was a nice experience carving with him and really impressing for me. On flat sections and rapid edge changes he looked as good as non-disabled Europecup racers.

Good wishes to everyone who overcomes disabilities and goes out into the snow. You got my sincere respect.

[Guest PowdrChasr]

Do you remember what kind of angles he was riding on the board?

[felix]

I didn't look at it in detail but the angles were usual for a raceboard. I think it was somewhere in the high 50°. Suppose his Backfoot might have had different angles (like not the simple Minus 3 or 6°) but I can't remeber.

[snowghost]

I always hate to "butt in" on a topic unless asked, but I would guess that one of the bk's you saw snowboarding was Chris Higgins.

About 10 years ago I coached Chris when he was going to the University of Wisconsin and I was running the snowboard program at Tyrol Basin, and teaching part time at Vail.

We kept Chris' leg a secret for a year or so, training privately, until he placed second in his age group in the regional USASA race series in slalom and GS --- even the other riders did not know.

Chris later when on to work for "flex foot" and other companies in the industry. He became a competitive athlete in several sports after he moved to California, and did some inline skating commercials and that stuff.

I lost contact with Chris a few years ago, but he should not be hard to find if you want answers.

There was another snowboard instructor named Chris Sandowski that I worked with at Vail. He probably knew as much about teaching in this area as anyone in the country back then, and was the main person that Vail referred snowboard students to for lessons.

From my experience training Chris Higgins and others, some of the questions you ask, even a simple one, like "which foot forward" does not have only one answer. It depends on the person. The instructor/coach has to use his or her trained eyes in movement analysis to see what the individual snowboarder is doing, then give the appropriate feedback, encouragement and direction in small steps as you go through the journey together. It is not a "one answer fits all thing". More than anything else, the instructor should do good demos, keep moving on appropriate terrain, make it fun, and not talk too much.

Don't know if any of this helps, and someone could write an email book about what goes on in a single day's lesson. I will send you my phone number by private email if you ever want to bang some ideas around.

Stay loose and let the board run. --- "Ghost"