NateW Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 The guy in the photo Digger posted, his feet, hips, and shoulders aren't lined up. He's angulating from the hips. Maybe that's not a bad thing? I've been aiming to get my hips lined up between my feet and shoulders, as seen from the front... Below is a photo posted by drzone to the 'post your photos' thread, that shows what I'm talking about. That's what I figured 'butt over the board' really meant... I guess I have been thinking of 'butt inside' and 'shoulders outside' as being basically the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by NateW This guy's feet, hips, and shoulders aren't lined up. He's angulating from the hips. Maybe that's not a bad thing? I've been aiming to get my hips lined up between my feet and shoulders, as seen from the front. Here's a photo posted by drzone to the 'post your photos' thread, that shows what I'm talking about. That's what I figured 'butt over the board' really meant... I guess I have been thinking of 'butt inside' and 'shoulders outside' as being basically the same thing. Another picture of a great heelside carve. It appears to me that his hips <i>are</i> above his feet. I think the big thing that needs to be clarified is our frame of reference. When I say "above his feet" or "over the board" I mean <i>relative to the board</i>, not relative to the earth. He is "angulating" at the hips to maintain a more upright upper body. The opposite of this would be an EC style carve, where the upperbody is in-line with the lower body and there is little or no angulation. On hero or good snow, this is a matter of style. On ice, it is simply a fact of physics that an angulated body position will be easier to balance, because you are keeping your body closer to the board, and your head is upright. That is why you'll never see anyone EC'ing in an icy race course. (<i>this is not to say that either style is "better" than the other.</i>) -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Who ever that guy is I want to ride with him. He looks like he is having a great time. What board is that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Jeangerard Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Nooooo.... Not a one piece! Just a Spider top from the 90s. You know, short. Glad you popped in to this thread. It's hard to visualize from words only, and even then, getting the right idea can be somewhat ellusive. Getting focused on where my hands are did help quite a bit. (Now, back to our regularly scheduled dynamics excersizes.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachp13 Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by brodster_57 [ Lol, this is why I never put a pic of me on here. I don't want everyone pulling out their micrometers and such and picking my apart! J/K. Anyways yesterday was my third day back on a race/carving board in almost 1.5 seasons (I still don't know what I was thinking in stopping for that long), and I rode at Mission Ridge for the first time ever. [/b] Saw you at Mission Ride this last weekend. For taking time off you looked pretty good out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vahur Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Bobby Buggs What board is that?? If you mean picture, posted by Nate W, then this red board is Swoard, The Extreme Carver.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Peter from Tahoe. On a Swoard 161. Always a clown, never serious (should not tell that to his boss), always looking to go lower, helps to be short anyway. Check out more pics and video of the Tahoe crew on tahoecarvers.com Check the links for video under their pictures half way down the page... http://www.tahoecarvers.com/riders/forum/read_TC.php?f=1&i=3095&t=3095 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Originally posted by Bobby Buggs Who ever that guy is I want to ride with him. He looks like he is having a great time. What board is that?? That red one with that happy smiling guy is a SWOARD (www.swoard.com). Greets, Hans. Sh...................., drzone was ahead of me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Just to clarify (because I really wasn't clear, at all), when I said "This guy's feet, hips, and shoulders aren't lined up. He's angulating from the hips...." I was referring to the picture posted by Digger, not the the picture posted by me. In the picture I posted (of Peter from Tahoe), the rider's feet, hips, and shoulders ARE lined up. Compare that to the photo Digger posted. Peter's carve is s what I figured a heelside carve should look like. He is not angulating from the hips at all. His angulation is pretty close to zero - with maybe something going on in his legs to reduce the board's edge angle just a bit, but let's ignore that for now. It seems to me that the anonymous guy in the first photo could get the same inclination, angulation, and height of CG, if he moved his hips to the outside - he'd have basically the same posture as Peter, but with less inclination than Peter has in Peter's photo. Would that be better technique? I dunno, I'm asking. Another way to look at it.... should the rider's spine lean inward, so that when seen from the front the rider's spine is parallel to the angle of inclination? Or should the rider's spine look vertical when seen from the front - because the rider gets lower by leaning forward? I'm having a hard time describing what's on my mind, I might have to strap in on carpet and take some photos to explain what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Here's what worked for me. I ride similar angles...50Front...45Rear. Imagine you just walked through a door holding a tray of food. You want to close the door but you don't want to spill the food. How do you accomplish this....simply by holding the tray and upper body level and closing the door with a gentle push of the hip. Do the same thing with your heelside turn. Thrust your hip to the side without leaning the upper body. To get more heelside angle I concentrate on keeping my butt over the board while also concentrating on arching my back more than I think I should. Good luck...it's a process pulling it all together. Lots of simple but subtle thinks happening during a carve! PS...don't forget to crank up on those ankles at the same time. Try doing everything more than you think you should. I used to think I was sinking into my turns until I saw a film of myself....not even close. I sink more now and my riding has improved dramatically. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by ultracarve Hi Jack, I was really hoping you would give a descriptive explanation as to how riders could seperate the knees and stay aligned on the board at the same time. I know that it is a valid way to ride GS just not sure if I understand why so many people ride with their shoulders parallel to the board and their butt or upper body extended out of alignment? I don't think I've ever seen <i>anyone</i> here advocating riding with your shoulders <i>parallel</i> to your board. "Parallel" would mean one shoulder pointing towards the nose, and the other towards the tail - as if you were trying to hide behind a telephone pole. There are basically two popular schools of thought here - face your chest towards the nose of your board, or face your chest towards your binding angles. Either is fine, and the choice is a "whatever works for <i>you</i>" type thing, imo. Actually everyone should know how to do both and apply them appropriately. Seperating the knees is something that I wrote about back in the days when people were riding with narrow stances, with the big Burton "knock-knee" wedge cant device under their back foot, a flat front foot, and with their rear knee tucked in <i>behind</i> their front knee. Not a good way to achieve a stable and balanced stance. The point was that you shouldn't be trying to jam your knees together, just let them act independently and naturally. If that means there's only an inch of space between them that's fine. I'm not sure where your rant came from because it sounds like you ride with a similar style that I and many people here advocate. Trying to touch your bottom rib to your hip bone, or "pencil pinching" as it has been called, is a well known technique here. As for pictures that look like the rider is hanging their butt out, some people are, but I think sometimes it can be harder to tell when the carve is highly inclinated (high edge angle). As long as your butt/hips are mostly "on top of" the board, you're doing fine. By "on top of the board" I mean that if you were to view the board at such an angle that all you see is the topsheet, the rider's butt is mostly over the topsheet. Like cmc, here. Does this clear things up any? -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 Originally posted by NateW In the picture I posted (of Peter from Tahoe), the rider's feet, hips, and shoulders ARE lined up. Compare that to the photo Digger posted. Peter's carve is s what I figured a heelside carve should look like. He is not angulating from the hips at all. His angulation is pretty close to zero Absolutely not! He's totally angulated! How do you think he's able to keep his head up and his shoulders nearly level to the snow? Look at the line of his legs compared to the line of his spine - he is angulated at the hips. It seems to me that the anonymous guy in the first photo could get the same inclination, angulation, and height of CG, if he moved his hips to the outside - he'd have basically the same posture as Peter, but with less inclination than Peter has in Peter's photo. Would that be better technique? I dunno, I'm asking. The guy in Digger's photo is probably not going quite as fast as Peter. I think if he were, he would look a lot like Peter. I think he looks great the way he is. His butt/hips are mostly over his board, and he is nicely angulated. Another way to look at it.... should the rider's spine lean inward, so that when seen from the front the rider's spine is parallel to the angle of inclination? Or should the rider's spine look vertical when seen from the front - because the rider gets lower by leaning forward? On good snow, I think this is a matter of style and taste. Spine parallel to the angle of inclination would be an EC style carve. However on icier conditions using angulation (to achieve a vertical spine in your example) will put you in a more balanced position. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted February 18, 2004 Report Share Posted February 18, 2004 I think in that case, the person had parallel and perpendicular confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Jeangerard Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by ultracarve If I was out of line I apologize and will refrain from such vivid descriptions in the future. "tell them something positive and then subtly suggest a slight improvement". Speaking strictly for myself, I can't imagine how I would ever be offended by your type of argument. I too consider this a more hardcore forum and expect some passion from it's posters. If I were in a lesson and my student was using the term 'angulation' where he/she meant 'inclination' I would correct it immediately and forcefully. As far as tone goes, well... we are not in a lesson, we are all peers, and nothing about your post was abusive. I, for one, appreciate engaging discussion and strong personal style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud I think in that case, the person had parallel and perpendicular confused. That is correct, I meant to say perpendicular and didn't realize it as most people seemed to interpret what I intended to say and not what I actually said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 I dunno... I looked at that photo and saw Pater leaning forward (toward the nose), not upward (away from the snow). But in any case, this has been an interesting thread. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted February 29, 2004 Report Share Posted February 29, 2004 I've been working on my heelside recently, with a lot of help from "Old Snowboards" Bryan at Mt Hood. It seems like it's coming along, but very slowly. Sometimes I think I'm the counterexample to the "no such thing as bad student, only bad teacher" quote from Karate Kid! Here is a video of me taken about 3 weeks ago. That was taken when I was working on toeside more so than heelside, now I'm trying to get the heelsdie caught up. So, my problem is, no matter what I try, I can't seem to get my hips perpendicular to the board on a heelside when I am riding. I can do it fine when I'm standing. I can do it fine on a toeside.... gravity helps keep my butt where I want it, "over" the board ("over" in the sanse of the plane of the board not the snow). But on heelside, it seems to wind up right where it shouldn't be, sticking out. Since this video was taken, I seem to have *partly* corrected the problem. For one I am reaching in front of me w/ the trailing (right) hand as recommended earlier on this thread. Second, I am trying not to move my hips when I goe from toeside to heelside. In the video I noticed that I let my hips go aligned with by feet just as I release the toeside turn, and then they want to stay that way on heelside. Third, I am trying to push the knees, front first then rear, to the inside of the heelside turn as I do it, as recommended in one of the tech articles. Also, In the video my stance is 19.75" wide, 60* / 1* toe lift / 0* cant front, 57* / 3 degree heel lift / 0* cant rear. Since then I've been messing with the stance, which has helped - this morning I was at 19" wide, 66* / 2* toe lift / 0 *cant, 63* / 3* heel lift with a noticable inward cant. Each of these things has helped a little but I still feel a long way away from my goal of keeping by butt over the board. Also I have noticed that the more my butt stays over the board, the less I can flex at the knees and the more upright I seem to be standing. Fine on mellow pitches but it's a problem on not so mellow picthes. Also, not "releasing" my hip back to the over-the bindings- position when I change edges from toesdie to heelside seems to stiffen my whole body which doesn't "feel" right.... but it does seem to keep the butt from hanging out as much. I'd love to hear some suggestions! BTW, my right (trailing - I'm regular) hip is a bit out of whack. But, I don't think I can "blame" it because I can get the hips to the perpendicular position standing up and on toeside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason_watkins Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 Mike: I'll try to get dave to firewire the video from the other weekend and post it here. He's a real gomer with that camera so I think he managed to tape over most of it, but there should be at least one clip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 1, 2004 Report Share Posted March 1, 2004 As far as I can tell from that video, it looks like you're sitting down into your heelside too much. Your butt's a little too far off to the side. It is true that in most sports, "bend your knees!" is good advice. However for us, bending your knees only needs to be a function of how much shock absorbtion you need. Carves don't happen because we bend our knees, we bend our knees because we're carving. That is, lean in first, bend knees second. It looks like you're bending your knees first, and leaning in second. Think of a slalom water skier on a glassy lake. He doesn't bend his knees very much if at all, because he doesn't have to, the lake is smooth. Or think of the extremecarving guys, they never ride anything but hero snow, so they don't bend their knees as much, they just leeeeeeannn over! :p Try this to overcome your habit. When you are better at keeping your butt over the topsheet of your board, you can bring the knees back into the equation some more to work the board and be more dynamic when you want. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted March 2, 2004 Report Share Posted March 2, 2004 I just watched the video again and I see exactly what you mean! Especially when I compare the toeside to the heelside. I'll take that advice tyo a nice gentle slope and spend a few hours hammering it into my muscle memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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