Donek Axis vs Prior 4wd

[garyj]

Curious to know if anyone has done a comparison ride on the Axis and the 4wd. Pros and cons of each board etc. I've owned a 4wd for the last several seasons and love it, but want to know more about the Axis. Tell me what you know.

[gdboytyler]

Here's what Sean Martin from Donek had to say about this:

Prior 4WD vs Donek Axis?

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I think the major difference between the Axis and 4X4 is how we weighted the powder vs carving performance. When I designed the Axis, I build a board that could go anywhere, but I looked at the frequency I felt many riders would see hard pack vs powder. I felt that the hardpack won out in most cases. As a result the Axis was designed to be a carving board that can do trees. I think the 4X4 is more of a powder/tree board for carvers. Chris might say it a bit differently, but the flex on the 4X4 is a bit softer than the Axis. This will lend itself more to powder than boiler plate.

I hope that helps a bit.

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Gary, if you had a shorter 4x4, I'd want to try it out the next time we rode together.

[~tb]

Here's what Sean Martin from Donek had to say about this:

Prior 4WD vs Donek Axis?

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I think the major difference between the Axis and 4X4 is how we weighted the powder vs carving performance. When I designed the Axis, I build a board that could go anywhere, but I looked at the frequency I felt many riders would see hard pack vs powder. I felt that the hardpack won out in most cases. As a result the Axis was designed to be a carving board that can do trees. I think the 4X4 is more of a powder/tree board for carvers. Chris might say it a bit differently, but the flex on the 4X4 is a bit softer than the Axis. This will lend itself more to powder than boiler plate.

I hope that helps a bit.

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Gary, if you had a shorter 4x4, I'd want to try it out the next time we rode together.

having ridden both out west and on the east coast (USA) I think the above statement from sean sums it up PERFECTLY. I would add one other peice of feedback. with both boards (at different times) I was out west when we had several large snows, and they then groomed. This resulted in beautiful, yet soft groomers. Too soft for a race board. When I was on the prior, I felt that the nose was a bit soft and folded up a couple times. On the axis, the nose was stiff enough to keep driving the board hard.

As stated abov, 4X4 = powder+tree board for hardbooters. Axis = carving board, that can do trees and powder. Get the board that best fits your intended use.

For me, it would be the axis. The prior felt slightly better in the powder, but the axis felt a LOT better on the groomer.

qualification: the Prior I used was built circa 2000 and I was riding it in the 2001 season. The donek was a 2002 riding it in the 2002 season. Either manufacturer may have changed their designs since.

[Neil Gendzwill]

qualification: the Prior I used was built circa 2000 and I was riding it in the 2001 season. The donek was a 2002 riding it in the 2002 season. Either manufacturer may have changed their designs since.

I don't know about the Donek but I understand the new Priors are considerably stiffer. I had a 165 from about the same era as yours and it really wasn't much stiffer than a Burton Wire.

[~tb]

I don't know about the Donek but I understand the new Priors are considerably stiffer. I had a 165 from about the same era as yours and it really wasn't much stiffer than a Burton Wire.

Thanks for the post Neil. I guess I need to get out west again and ride both of these boards again! Gotta love excuses to travel ;-)

~tb

[Jack M]

I may be in the minority here, but I think both the Axis and the 4WD have woefully short sidecut radii. I always "knew" this just by looking at the numbers, but I finally got a chance to demo one last season (I won't say which brand) in the low 170 range, and my opinion was confirmed. I couldn't get off the thing fast enough.

If I were buying a custom Axis or 4WD, I'd get a 170 with a 12.5m radius.

[nils]

agreed with jack.. my 177 axis has a way too small radius for my tastes.... I'd have it around 13m in my dreams, with a few more cm width...

N.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Never tried anything with a bigger sidecut radius to compare, but it works fine for me for what I use it for, which is all-mountain riding. I'm only on the groomers about a 1/3 of the time, less if possible.

[polaris]

I have a new prior 4x with quadrax and think it is a great board for the east. It carves on crud and hardpack to moderate speed and moderate steeps. I have carve specific boards and got the Prior because it is more all mountain and less carve specifc. When I tried the Axis i found it was too much of a carver to fill the "all mountain" niche. As with any board, the prior has its limits (speed on hardpacked steeps), but it is one of the most fun boards I own.

I think Jack has a point on the sidecut, especially for wide open terrain. But for tight trails, woods, crud, etc. I prefer the added mobility of the short radius.

[Mike T]

I may be in the minority here, but I think both the Axis and the 4WD have woefully short sidecut radii. I always "knew" this just by looking at the numbers, but I finally got a chance to demo one last season (I won't say which brand) in the low 170 range, and my opinion was confirmed. I couldn't get off the thing fast enough.

If I were buying a custom Axis or 4WD, I'd get a 170 with a 12.5m radius.

I would agree... for carving. Despite Sean's design intentions, I've always thought my Axis 172 (10.25 scr) was better off-piste than on. It has the torsional stiffness to hold well in a carve but it really shines off the groomed, especially in trees and fresh snow. The shorter scr feels right to me in those off-piste situations.

For an "all-mtn carver" I knew I wanted something with a bigger scr so I worked with Bruce @ Coiler on my "Slushbuster" design, giving him three pararmeters:

12.7 scr

19.5 waist (size 25 boots - can 50* stance angles w/ a little underhang, for soft snow)

157 cm eff. edge

and followed his recommendations on the rest. The length came out to be 182 (including an extended, high-rise nose... if you measure the length of the shadow the board casts with a light directly above, it's only ~2 cm longer than my Donek FC 175), the nose is quite stiff, and like most Coiler AM's it's a little softer in the middle. There are many conditions in which it can carve but neither my Axis nor any true alpine board I've ridden can... the alpine boards are harder to tame on soft bumpy stuff and the Axis tends to turn violently on soft stuff with it's short scr. Such conditions include fresh-over-groomed, slush-over-hardpack, and soon-after-dump groomers where the groomed isn't firm enough for aggressive carving (The nose shape and flex profile seems to make it easier to avoid augering - in these conditions I ride it without moving my weight fore and aft at all).

[Jack M]

I think Jack has a point on the sidecut, especially for wide open terrain. But for tight trails, woods, crud, etc. I prefer the added mobility of the short radius.

Thanks, but you don't actually use the sidecut when you're not carving. In fact, a <i>shallower</i> sidecut is more maneuverable off-piste. So I think a longer sidecut on an Axis/4WD would be a double benefit.

[Guest jschal01]

I may be in the minority here, but I think both the Axis and the 4WD have woefully short sidecut radii. I always "knew" this just by looking at the numbers, but I finally got a chance to demo one last season (I won't say which brand) in the low 170 range, and my opinion was confirmed. I couldn't get off the thing fast enough.

If I were buying a custom Axis or 4WD, I'd get a 170 with a 12.5m radius.

What exactly caused you to hate the tighter sidecut? For a wide-open slope, they definitely would not allow you to arc quite the same shape big turns, but they've even been used for rutted-up parallel GS courses becuase they handle those conditions well. For a pure pow and bumps board the 12.5 or even longer radius would be pretty sweet imo, combined with the right flex pattern, but for all-mountain (including most carving needs) I just don't get the need for the longer sidecut for most resort riding. If your turns are 1/4 smaller and tighter you also do get to make 1/3 more turns. :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Thanks, but you don't actually use the sidecut when you're not carving.

Huh? The sidecut is irrelevant in the bumps? In the steeps?

[Guest jschal01]

re: bumps and steeps, for the most part you don't want the sidecut to make the board "hooky." Bumps and steeps are actually sort of flip side of the same coin here. Same actually for pow, one reason why the Fish is a great tree board but not great above-treeline board is it's "squirreliness" at high speeds in pow. This is due to the short sidecut combined with mellow flex imo, not the length or the nose and taper per se.

[Mike T]

Thanks, but you don't actually use the sidecut when you're not carving. In fact, a <i>shallower</i> sidecut is more maneuverable off-piste. So I think a longer sidecut on an Axis/4WD would be a double benefit.

Jack, are you implying that one doesn't allow their edges to track at all when off piste? In other words, that one is riding either flat on their base or sideslipping? I don't think that's completely valid.

Having ridden both boards yesterday, I can tell you for sure that my Axis 172 is more maneuverable tham my Coiler AM 182 in trees and tracked-out deep snow. The difference in overall length (cord length - along the curvature) may be 10cm, but the difference in effective edge is only 3cm, and that's the part that matters when you're trying to jam a turn betwwen the trees. Sure, the flex pattern matters too, but I would say that I am in fact hooking up the sidecut for part of those turns, just not all of them. The tighter sidecut shapes are more "flared" and that means the nose edge find something to dig into quicker.

Keep in mind that not all off-piste riding is powder... you've got crud, windpack, rough windblown icy patches, etc to deal with as well and while you might not make pure-carved C-turns through these, one can and does engage the sidecut at times.

My conclusions are based on observations made while riding both boards in extremely varied terrain and snow yesterday... however they could be wrong, please do point out any mistakes I've made, I'm always happy to learn more :)

[Guest jschal01]

"Keep in mind that not all off-piste riding is powder... you've got crud, windpack, rough windblown icy patches, etc to deal with as well and while you might not make pure-carved C-turns through these, one can and does engage the sidecut at times."

Every one of the conditions you mention, with the exception of bare ice, you ride in 3d. Particularly so crud or mashed potatoes. Sidecut has the effect of forcing you into a certain, given turn shape, rather than the size arc you want. This can have the effect of making the board jerk around as the sidecut engages just when you don't want it to. The more the "arc" of the decambered board determines turn shape, and not the sidecut itself, the more flexibility you have in turn shape. This is different from sideslipping, though the ability to "smear" turns can also be great.

[Jack M]

Jack, are you implying that one doesn't allow their edges to track at all when off piste? In other words, that one is riding either flat on their base or sideslipping? I don't think that's completely valid.

I'm saying you don't <i>carve</i> nice round turns off piste. You may let your edges track in order to traverse, and you may be doing steered turns where you're using the edge for some direction and speed control, but in any case, less sidecut depth is better.

Having ridden both boards yesterday, I can tell you for sure that my Axis 172 is more maneuverable tham my Coiler AM 182 in trees and tracked-out deep snow. The difference in overall length (cord length - along the curvature) may be 10cm, but the difference in effective edge is only 3cm, and that's the part that matters when you're trying to jam a turn betwwen the trees.

This is a joke, right? Come on, (looking around) where's the hidden camera?

The tighter sidecut shapes are more "flared" and that means the nose edge find something to dig into quicker.

Exactly. This makes your board more squirrelly. This is skiers' major complaint when switching from old "straight" skis to new "shaped" skis.

[Jack M]

What exactly caused you to hate the tighter sidecut?

The board I tried was pretty much useless for the speed I like to ride at. And I don't ride at ludicrous speed either. The carves were too tight, too abrupt, and too numerous.

For a wide-open slope, they definitely would not allow you to arc quite the same shape big turns, but they've even been used for rutted-up parallel GS courses becuase they handle those conditions well.

The use of 4WDs for PGS was an experiment. I don't think they're being used anymore. Besides, the reason for using them was not the shorter radius.

For a pure pow and bumps board the 12.5 or even longer radius would be pretty sweet imo, combined with the right flex pattern, but for all-mountain (including most carving needs) I just don't get the need for the longer sidecut for most resort riding.

Well, 12.5m is not a very long sidecut radius. Not even GS territory. A longer sidecut simply lets you go faster before it starts to chatter. One of the biggest causes of chatter is the board trying to turn tighter than you are letting it. Check out the physics article if you don't believe me. I'll never forget the epiphany I had when I rode my Donek 186 (15m) for the first time - I was like holy cow, I'm going as fast as I want to go and there's no chatter! The board was just quietly carving along, saying "it ain't no thang!"

[Mike T]

This is a joke, right? Come on, (looking around) where's the hidden camera?

You're right!

I seem to remember the Axis 172 having an edge length of 154, but looking at the Donek specs, it's actually 148. I stand corrected. :o And I'm more than willing to believe that 9 cm of effective edge makes all the difference. Conclusion withdrawn!

Exactly. This makes your board more squirrelly. This is skiers' major complaint when switching from old "straight" skis to new "shaped" skis.

I certainly don't have any complaints about the Axis 172 being squirrely for off-piste riding. It feels just right. But now you have me thinking, bigger sidecut in a 148cm edge length... and I just happen to have a Coiler AM 172 on order to replace the Axis, which is a rock board now.

Hmmmmmmmm............ 12m?

Don't take the fact that I am replacing my Axis with a Coiler as a diss on Donek or the Axis in any way. It's simply that I am looking for something even more freeride-ish than the Axis. I believe the Coiler flex pattern will be more to my liking for the application... I find the softer middle very agreeable for freeriding especially in trees and deep tracked snow. If I could only own one board, it might be Jack's theoretical Axis w/ bigger sidecut!

[Guest jschal01]

Re: PGS, they specifically handled rutted-up conditions well, which is the point I was initially making, I did not state nor mean that people were looking for tighter sidecut radii in using the 4wd for that purpose. But, handling ruts and other variable snow conditions well is a big plus in my view for a board.

Nor was I stating that 12.5 is super-long for a GS or carving board, it is super-long for a freeride board though. When talking pow and bumps, I would think the freeride specs would be the relavant point of comparison.

Basically, I think you and I prefer to ride in different ways, and also have different views on what most people would benefit from in terms of sticks. (I've posted previously that I think most people "overhorse" themselves and would in fact benefit from being on something like a 4wd rather than something longer.)

I do agree with you for the most part re: soft snow performance characteristics, but imo most of the people on really long sidecuts that I see on the East Coast can't handle them well. I'm sure you rip on yours, but you also have ridden much more than the average person out there.

The board I tried was pretty much useless for the speed I like to ride at. And I don't ride at ludicrous speed either. The carves were too tight, too abrupt, and too numerous.

The use of 4WDs for PGS was an experiment. I don't think they're being used anymore. Besides, the reason for using them was not the shorter radius.

Well, 12.5m is not a very long sidecut radius. Not even GS territory. A longer sidecut simply lets you go faster before it starts to chatter. One of the biggest causes of chatter is the board trying to turn tighter than you are letting it. Check out the physics article if you don't believe me. I'll never forget the epiphany I had when I rode my Donek 186 (15m) for the first time - I was like holy cow, I'm going as fast as I want to go and there's no chatter! The board was just quietly carving along, saying "it ain't no thang!"

[Jack M]

You're right!

I seem to remember the Axis 172 having an edge length of 154, but looking at the Donek specs, it's actually 148. I stand corrected. :o And I'm more than willing to believe that 9 cm of effective edge makes all the difference. Conclusion withdrawn!

Even so, I really don't think the actual edge length has much effect. Having 10cm less lumber to haul around and change direction should be what you're feeling.

I certainly don't have any complaints about the Axis 172 being squirrely for off-piste riding. It feels just right.

I'm sure it's fine, but I think you'd enjoy less sidecut depth better. I always wondered what Kent (ironman) was smoking when he would harp on sidecut depth, but after riding my Madd 180 (16 or 17m), I'm a believer. That board is sneaky maneuverable. So much so in fact, that it fooled me into thinking I could do some tight trees on it. It's not quite up to that task, but it's surprising how easy it is to steer that board around.

But now you have me thinking, bigger sidecut in a 148cm edge length... and I just happen to have a Coiler AM 172 on order to replace the Axis, which is a rock board now.

Hmmmmmmmm............ 12m?

(Austrian accent) Do it now!!

[Jack M]

Nor was I stating that 12.5 is super-long for a GS or carving board, it is super-long for a freeride board though.

How would you know - nobody makes one! Don't love it till you try it. Burton doesn't make a single board with a radius larger than 8.95m. That's just dumb. The folks at Steepwater are starting to figure this out. I'll bet they'll come out with some even bigger sidecuts in the future.

[gdboytyler]

How would you know - nobody makes one! Don't love it till you try it. Burton doesn't make a single board with a radius larger than 8.95m. That's just dumb. The folks at Steepwater are starting to figure this out. I'll bet they'll come out with some even bigger sidecuts in the future.

The Pogo D-Day 169 (swallow tail) has got a 12m scr and 23.5 cm waist. Pogo claims that it's a great all mountain board, not just a powder gun.

Pogo D-Day 169

I'm going to try one out, the next time I've got $1000 burning a hole in my pocket.

[Guest jschal01]

"How would you know - nobody makes one! Don't love it till you try it. Burton doesn't make a single board with a radius larger than 8.95m. That's just dumb. The folks at Steepwater are starting to figure this out. I'll bet they'll come out with some even bigger sidecuts in the future."

One of the drawbacks of the internet is that it is hard to tell the difference between constructive back and forth and simple one-upping. Burton makes great boards, but if I were looking for a really good big-mountain freeride board for a grown man who rides fast in all conditions I wouldn't have my nose in the Burton catalog. You can get stock freeride boards up to about 11 sidecut right now. The Prior in my garage is either a 10.5 or an 11, I frankly can't recall, and it's not their biggest board. Re: don't love it till you try it, well, I do love the Prior. 12.5 is, as I had said, super-long for a freeride board. It is not shockingly long, and i can tell you right now that a board with that sidecut or longer, with reduced camber, with the right flex pattern, would be pretty sweet for its specialized purpose. Hell, throw in zero camber or slight reverse camber/rocker, and it'd be even sweeter soft snow, of all sorts, at the expense of hard snow performance.

[astrokel]

12.5 is, as I had said, super-long for a freeride board. It is not shockingly long, and i can tell you right now that a board with that sidecut or longer, with reduced camber, with the right flex pattern, would be pretty sweet for its specialized purpose.

Hmmm, sounds sorta like a Swoard... ;)