Jack: Question on Rotation turn and push pull method

[James Ong]

This twist actually decreases edge pressure on a heelside turn. Depending on your angles the effect will be more drastic, higher angles less negative effect. Lower angles more negative effect.

I'm not arguing that push-pull ( and lots of rotation) is the better way to go, but there is no denying that it works. When i do turns with less rotation it dosen't work worth a damn so i have to believe that something good is going on.

Before someone brings it up , maybe it only works in hero snow eh? :o

In that case i am the luckiest guy in the world because 99% of the conditions i ride in MUST be hero snow.

Again i'm not saying that the commonly accepted way of turning is not the better way . Be open minded though, it wasn't that long ago that people thought Bode Miller was nuts to try to ski the way he did.

Here is an exerpt from shapeski.com analyzing bode's technique.

CONCLUSION

Because his slalom skiing sometimes looks awkward and unbalanced, I expected in my analysis to find many aspects of Bode's technique inefficient and risky, and not for general consumption. Indeed there are some moves involving excessive rotations and counter-rotations to question. Also, in weighting his tails to to keep his skis tracking cleanly coming out of turns he will sometimes wait too long to get forward for the next turn. I suspect that this is not so much an ingrained technical flaw as it is a lack of slalom training due to multi-discipline time constraints.

Still, much of the unconventional in Bode's technique, like:

Tilting in at the top of open-gate turns,

Putting down the inside hand when necessary to help find balance at big lean angles,Coming back on his skis at turns' end to get out of the turns cleanly, and limiting extension,

Running many vertical combinations with feet less than two feet apart.

are part of what makes him fast.

Each of these moves runs counter to some widely accepted coaching dogma and it's tempting to suggest that we should be teaching every kid or Masters racer to ski slalom like Bode. But few have Bode's strength and agility, and it's probably best to first learn a somewhat more balanced and reliable technique before experimenting with some Bode-like moves.

Keep your mind open. Coaches seldom, if ever, discover something new that's fast, and we've set back U.S. racing before by squashing funny looking technique and/or equipment that we should have analyzed and used intelligently, in order to stay ahead of the competition. Remember. You don't win the World Cup with a lot that's wrong. We should be finding and using the best from Bode.

Any of the above comments sound familiar?

[kipstar]

I've seen James ride, and I have little idea how he rides like that with what are basically extremely soft hard boots and a very long board. Rose is for the most part hero snow James, but it isn't the snow that is making you turn like that, it is your technique. Ditto for Rob who also turns it up with massive rotation.

I know I rotate more than the recommended method but less than EC without the lay down on the snow bit; my guess is that is it something to do with commitment; when I started rotating more, I stopped chattering out, could turn far further uphill before starting my next turn and could turn sharper. In basically all snow conditions.

I think it comes down to more rotation gets the turn started faster because your are looking where you want to go; your body is rotated that way and everything else follows; so you end up going that way; similar to car crashes; people often crash head onto lampposts right in the middle because they look at the lamppost, and their body follows and the car follows; by committing with rotation it seems like you get the whole thing down happening faster. Especially when combined with push pull or cross through (which I think aren't that different, just timing).

I can actually force myself now to ride the same way without the rotation, but without going through the rotation step, I would not have been able to get the body position right - one of the other guys who also was taught by Swiss said he was taught how to do all the rotation bit, then afterwards told, ok, now we learn how to do the same thing without the rotation.

Even so, I like riding with the rotation; easier on the body, smoother and less effort for me (since I am used to it) and as soon as I go back to no rotation, I find life a whole lot harder. If the alternative is to ride like that CMC style, effective it may be but I'll stick with my rotation style.

Especially on flatter slopes, the rotation also means you can ride much slower it seems to me; the rotation allows you to get the board going round a corner a lot quicker than without. Way back when my coach showed me this to convince me to do the rotation; reading Jack's articles I am not understanding the physics why, but it definitely seems to work.

[Jack M]

I think you're both wrong. :D

If you weigh 80kg and you are going 10m/s around a 5 meter turn..... there is going to be exactly 1782.1 Newtons of force applied to your board (about 400lbf!!). No more, no less. Your body position has nothing to do with that. You CAN dictate WHERE that force gets applied - more to the front foot, more to the back foot, or even.

Whether you use EC style rotation, or you align your hips with your bindings, or you turn more square to the nose, only serves to put you in a body position in which YOU feel the most balanced, and best able to deal with the forces involved.

Any time anyone says, "do this, it puts more pressure on the edge"... well, it just makes no sense to me.

[RicHard]

Any time anyone says, "do this, it puts more pressure on the edge"... well, it just makes no sense to me.

I disagree: at a certain speed, on a certain slope, you can influence in difference ways the pressure you put on the edge.

By timing the flexing and extending of your legs, by moving your arms down to the edge in the momenti you need the most of the pressure, etc...

I would like just to notice this about your last statement, even if I "mean" it in the sense "you cannot put more pressure on the edge simply by aligning your body or by turn your head".

:-D

Regards,

_RicHard

[Jack M]

By timing the flexing and extending of your legs, by moving your arms down to the edge in the momenti you need the most of the pressure, etc...

Yes, but this only has a brief effect, and won't help you for the duration of the carve.

[RicHard]

Yes, but this only has a brief effect, and won't help you for the duration of the carve.

Well... not exactly "brief": if (as it should) the flexion and extension last for the whole duration of the carve, their influence is on the whole carve (even if you put more pressure just for a part of it while you lighten the rest).

The same is for the hands movement.

But it's not a second issue to notice that in this way you can pressure the edge in the frame it needs more pressure.

;-)

[Jack M]

I agree that down-weighting the board at the beginning of the carve will briefly magnify pressure, and that this movement can help you get into a powerful, angulated, balanced carving position. However I'm not buying it for a second that extending your legs throughout the rest of the carve does anything significant to increase pressure on the edge.

Even if you were to extend your knees from 90 degrees (bent) to 0 degrees (straight), you're only lifting your body mass by the length of your thigh, which in my case is about 18". I don't see how doing this over the time it takes to complete a GS-sized carve (4 seconds?) can be doing anything significant.

For short, slalom-sized "pumped" carves, sure, it can be significant.

[philfell]

Jack you can increase or decrease the amount of pressure in a turn, and it does have a huge effect during the carve. If it takes you 4 seconds to do a G.S. size carve you are going at a snails pace. The Okemo race had 26 turns, mid-pack riders were posting times at about 44 seconds. This was on a flat hill with soft, slow snow. I would bet that most people out freeriding go at a similar speed or faster.

What also makes a big differance that some riders inherently know, but have trouble explaining, is the angle at which you pressure is applyed to the snow. This is different than board angle.

James I like the post you found about Body. In snowboard raceing we have a very similar athlete, we call him Jasey. Jasey rides like no other athlete on tour. No coach that I know of tries to coach his athletes to ride like Jasey. It isn't because Jasey is slow, he is a threat in any World Cup he enters. He just rides in a way that is unique to him and it would be almost impossible to get the average person to copy. He also has had over a decade of practice useing his style and line and he is still inconsistant in races. Also do you think that Body is attempting to do many of the things he does in a race course? Many of the moves you see him do are recovery moves. He has learned to recover from mistakes amazingly well, and he has a mind set that he wants to win every race, it isn't worth scrubing speed if it means you will be second to him.

If you can't properly drive your board with you lower body only you have flaws in your technique.

[r_starr]

I agree that down-weighting the board at the beginning of the carve will briefly magnify pressure, and that this movement can help you get into a powerful, angulated, balanced carving position. However I'm not buying it for a second that extending your legs throughout the rest of the carve does anything significant to increase pressure on the edge.

Even if you were to extend your knees from 90 degrees (bent) to 0 degrees (straight), you're only lifting your body mass by the length of your thigh, which in my case is about 18". I don't see how doing this over the time it takes to complete a GS-sized carve (4 seconds?) can be doing anything significant.

For short, slalom-sized "pumped" carves, sure, it can be significant.

Jack, But with the Push-Pull technique for any one turn wouldn’t the number be twice the 18” you used? So for any one turn you’d have, 18” for the PUSH then another 18” for the PULL. So that’s 36” of leg travel over, as you estimated, 4 seconds. Assuming in the middle second of the turn there is no or minimal leg movement, then that’s 36” of travel in 3 seconds or 12” of travel a second. You were probably being intentionally generous by using 18”, but say it’s 15” of travel for 30” total, still that’s the ability to effectively pressure/depressure at a maximum of 10” travel/sec. Physics is yet another area where I am ignorant but it appears that an EC rider could use considerably less than that maximum and still have substantial influence on the board. Rob

[Jack M]

Jack you can increase or decrease the amount of pressure in a turn, and it does have a huge effect during the carve.

*sigh* - perhaps. I just don't think it's all that necessary, all the time. In fact, I can imagine how it could be detrimental sometimes. Don't race coaches tell their racers to be "light" on their edges when it's boilerplate?

If it takes you 4 seconds to do a G.S. size carve you are going at a snails pace.

It was just a guess. 2 seconds then?

What also makes a big differance that some riders inherently know, but have trouble explaining, is the angle at which you pressure is applyed to the snow. This is different than board angle.

Yes, angulation. That has been amply discussed here.

If you can't properly drive your board with you lower body only you have flaws in your technique.

Agreed.

[James Ong]

If you can't properly drive your board with you lower body only you have flaws in your technique.

Agreed, there might be more than one way to skin a cat though.

Driving the board with your lower body usually means pressuring the boot forward with your shins ( i think ). Would it not be possible to get the same, if not as powerful an effect with rotation and pushing?

Maybe the difference in opinion stems from differing goals. What might work pretty good for laid out carves is likely idiotic from a racers perspective.

[Bobby Buggs]

RicHard,

Since its Soo affordable to come to the USA, how about you and Patrice and the rest of that crew come here and get us dialed into your style. I think it would be Great. I know the Pure boarding crew comes here to ride, what about you guys??

[RCrobar]

Interesting Discussion!

An American wood saw cuts on the push stroke. As a result the saw blade is often thick, able to withstand being put under compression.

A Japanese wood saw cuts on the pull stroke. As a result the saw blade is often thin, able to withstand being put under tension.

The American and Japanese designs and technique for cutting a board are in opposition, but the end result is the same.

When reading about and trying the Rotation and Static techniques, then further reading about the design differences in, for example, the Swoard and Madd boards it becomes very clear that the two designs and techniques for cutting snow are in opposition.

The the end result is the same, carving down the mountain with a huge grin on your face!

A quote from Dr Seuss’s ‘Green Eggs and Ham’ is perhaps in order:

I do not like (insert preferred wood saw or snowboard philosophy here)

Try them ... try them ... and you may!

Trying to prove that one philosophy is better or worse is futile.

Trying to understand both philosophies leads to an open mind.

Rob

[D-Sub]

Crobar-Tzu speaks!

[Baka Dasai]

so, if two boards are shaped exactly the same, the stiffer one will have a higher "top speed" for carving?

I have two boards that are quite similar in size/shape at my disposal.

should I try to learn on the wet noodle on greens then move to the stiffer board on blue runs?

The answer to your first question is YES.

The answer to your second question is that if both boards are soft-boot boards, even the stiffer one will probably be soft enough and have a small enough sidecut radius for you to be able to carve it on green slopes at pretty moderate speeds. So it's probably not worth bothering with the noodle.

But the basic premise of your question is right. Each board has a speed range in which it carves well, and the stiffer the board, the further up the speedomoeter that range is.

--------------

And on the rotation question...rotation seems to be done by the EC'ers to load the nose of the board, which works well to get the turn started FAST. But it's also gotta be putting a rotational force on the board, which means the board is far more likely to rotate right out of the trench that it is carving. That doesn't seem to happen to the EC'ers (at least in their videos - is it the hero snow ? :)), so maybe they're doing some other little movement in there to compensate for that.

[BobD]

When people are talking about rotation here, do they think of it conventionally, that is, creating rotational forces in the same plane as the fall line ?. It seems to me, watching the EC videos, that once the rider's body is horizontal, the rotational forces would then be working in a vertical plane.

In which case, the twisting tension in the torso would increase edge pressure downwards below the front foot. Perhaps this is needed, as in the horizontal position the rider would not be able to keep as much weight forward as a rider with standard angulation could.

BobD

[philfell]

RicHard,

Since its Soo affordable to come to the USA, how about you and Patrice and the rest of that crew come here and get us dialed into your style. I think it would be Great. I know the Pure boarding crew comes here to ride, what about you guys??

It is cheap to get to Europe, I assume it's the same the other way around as well. My last round trip ticket from UT to the east coast was 460, my round trip ticket from UT to SUI is 510. Not much different for me to go to Europe than to the east coast.

[RicHard]

RicHard,

Since its Soo affordable to come to the USA, how about you and Patrice and the rest of that crew come here and get us dialed into your style. I think it would be Great. I know the Pure boarding crew comes here to ride, what about you guys??

Ehm... I think there's some misunderstanding: I'm not in the crew of Patrice (even if I'm trying his style too, in order to gain experience with all the different techniques you can carve and slalom with! :-D ).

My post about pressuring an edge was with no reference to any style but just about physics (just to clarify things).

So I don't have "my" style: I try all of the styles I can surf with, choosing the right one depending on what I want to obtain, the terrain, the slope, the snow, the board, the feeling, etc...

;-)

Furthermore... I've never been to US and I really would like to. But... I don't think that your statement is really true: I can't find it so affordable (money!)...

:-(

I agree with you: it would be really great! Can you imagine, all the hard-setup riders of the forum in only one ski-area?!?!?

:-O

What a wonderful dream!

:-D

[RicHard]

that once the rider's body is horizontal, the rotational forces would then be working in a vertical plane.

BobD

I think you centered the right issue about rotation (or, at least, the thing I'm convinced is true).

Many people say that a strong rotation is not good and, while you are straight, it's true because the rotational moment make your board rotate and slide.

But when the board is very inclinated on the snow, the same rotation make the tip of the board cut stronger the snow (this could be good to cut the very icy snow with the tip of the board making the rest of the edge follow the cut done by the tip).

That's why you cannot exhagerate with rotation while your board is (almost) parallel to the snow but you can when your board has high angles on the snow.

Just my opinion.

[Bobby Buggs]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I see the Europe thing and think you guys all hang out.

Hey D-sub did you see my post to you

[Zone]

But when the board is very inclinated on the snow, the same rotation make the tip of the board cut stronger the snow (this could be good to cut the very icy snow with the tip of the board making the rest of the edge follow the cut done by the tip).

That's why you cannot exhagerate with rotation while your board is (almost) parallel to the snow but you can when your board has high angles on the snow.

Just my opinion.

wow, I think I just saw the light, at least some light. never thought about it that way. although i don't race, i did notice no skidding on ice at high angle, sort of like skating. should be able to test it out in a few days when this rain in ontario freezes over!!

[D-Sub]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I see the Europe thing and think you guys all hang out.

Hey D-sub did you see my post to you

yeah dude...I did...and I emailed you through BOL. check your spam filter maybe? or its an old email? Idont know your direct one...

[Bobby Buggs]

buggs@map.com

[Istvan]

Guys, I'm new member of this forum, but old member of the EC forum. However, I'm not an EC maniac and I do not ride a Swoard. But let me please add two comments here with regards to rotation and push-pull:

- To Jack: I believe that the push itself does increase edge preassure. Physical explanation for this is that when you start extending your legs your bodymass starts accelerating in the opposite direction and that creates a force. Through your leg, boot, binding and board this force gets transferred to the edge, hence the increased edge preassure. And this has nothing to do with gravity, centrifugal force or the inclination of your body to the snow. It is simply physics.

Experimental way to test this: stand on scales and do some push and pull. You'll see your weight changing (or more precisely you'll see the change of your bodyweight multiplied by the g modified by the negative and positive acceleration).

- To Richard and drzone: As for the impact of the rotation, your approach sounds logical for the first, but I think it's not the case. The rotation's impact on the board starts (and immediately ends) when the upper body of the rider stops rotating. I think in this position the board is not inclinated that much that this force could really increase edge preassure, therefore it cannot help you in pushing the tip more into the ice.

Anyway, I might be wrong.... I always find it difficult to analyze a dynamic movement in static pictures....

Cheers,

István

[RicHard]

- To Richard and drzone: As for the impact of the rotation, your approach sounds logical for the first, but I think it's not the case. The rotation's impact on the board starts (and immediately ends) when the upper body of the rider stops rotating. I think in this position the board is not inclinated that much that this force could really increase edge preassure, therefore it cannot help you in pushing the tip more into the ice.

Welcome here (I'm on the EC forum too)... ;-)

Concerning the physics side of your statements, I agree with the thought that for the rotational momentum the most of the pressure happen when you stop (please, we have to distinguish from gradual movements and "impulse" movements) but it depends on your style when it cut the snow or not: if you put the board on a high edge angle from the beginning of the carve, the rotation make the tip dig into the snow.

Anyway, I agree with people that say that you could carve properly staying aligned all the time with no rotation.

The rotation (as for every movement you can do while carving) serve to concentrate some forces in certain moments of the carve, forces that you can't use in the other moments of the same carve. This makes the difference between carving all the carves in the same position with legs, arms and torso locked in the same position (i.e. aligned with the feet).

Just my opinion.

:-D