Riding steep off piste and bumps.

[Fleaman]

The other day, I was riding in the bumps and was having a hard time turning my board from heel edge to toe edge. I also remember last year in the powdery steeps and trees I would also have a hard time turning the same way especially if my board was across the fall line(which I have to to do scrub some speed.) Getting to it, I have tried to unweight my board more but I just end up flailing around to get it to turn.

I ride goofy on a coiler am 172 with cateks at 60 and 57 not sure of the cants, but the front I would suspect is canted 3 degrees with toe lift and the back probably around 6.

Does anyone else have this problem?

[Neil Gendzwill]

How come you're riding such steep angles on that AM? I think you'd have a little more leverage getting that sucker across the fall line with lower angles, or maybe that's just me. I ride 45/40 on the same board in size 27.5 Raichles.

[cfj04]

Are you trying to carve on steeps and bumps? My style tends to transition more to jump turns as the pitch begins to get steeper, especially if I'm on a stiffer board.

If I'm needing to scrub speed and getting the board more than 45 degrees off line, it seems virtually impossible to transition without some added hip rotation. If you aren't familiar with this method, practice on carpet always rotating the reat leg wth your pivot point centered on your front. I'm certain someone has written about this as a steep run alternative (or the my gosh that tree is close bail out move ;) )

FYI - run 62/54 goofy

[GeoffV]

I find myself shifting my weight to the front the steeper the pitch is. In the bumbs all your weight should be on the front foot and your back is just to direct the board and scrub speed. Back country (for me Tuckermans) I need to load the nose in order to iniciate the the jump turn on the steeps (60 degree plus pitch), at that pitch the actual turn is ususually in the air.

[Neil Gendzwill]

As an aside from the main discussion, I wasn't aware there was anything that steep at Tuckerman's. According to this guide, the steepest section is 55. At those pitches, I think all you can do is jump-turn from one completely sideways edge-set to another. Or at least, that's all I'd try to do, I've never been on anything over 50 degrees that was very long. There's one section of Freefall at Sunshine that's over 50 but it's maybe two or three turns long.

Anyways, at more sane angles like the 30-35 degrees of most single diamond bump runs, I find keeping my weight forward and using the bumps to make a little air time between turns to be most effective. Trying to fully carve each turn is a fantasy goal of mine but I'm not there yet.

[Fleaman]

I havent tried different angles, but maybe I should. I guess lower angles are better for this type of riding. I am not trying to carve but rather ride smoothly. I do try to lean forward and attack the steeps but just the one side is hard to turn.

I will try lowering my angles and see if this helps.

I kept them the same as what I would ride my PR 188 so I dont scrap up my new cateks with more divots. Just being a bit overprotective. I am sure after a year or two, I will be banging them with a hammer to get them to move. :D

Any hints on scrubbing speed in the moguls without turning your board into a sideslip?

[Sean]

The other day, I was riding in the bumps and was having a hard time turning my board from heel edge to toe edge. I also remember last year in the powdery steeps and trees I would also have a hard time turning the same way especially if my board was across the fall line(which I have to to do scrub some speed.) Getting to it, I have tried to unweight my board more but I just end up flailing around to get it to turn.

I ride goofy on a coiler am 172 with cateks at 60 and 57 not sure of the cants, but the front I would suspect is canted 3 degrees with toe lift and the back probably around 6.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Fleaman,

The binding angles on your AM should be determined by the length of your boots and the width of your board. Ideally you want to have your toes lined up just over the toe edge and your heels over the heel edge without any overhang. As far as lifts and cants go, believe it or not, I ride with none whatsoever on my Axis. I am not suggesting you do the same, but you might want to flatten out your front foot and maybe try 3 degrees of just lift on the rear to get a more natural neutral stance, especially on your all mountain ride. You will probably also have to reduce your stance width when you do this.

Now onto the steeps: The heel to toeside transition can be tough because we all tend to drop our hips back and ride defensively on our heelside when we are on the steeps- I know I do it. To transition smoothly into the next turn we have to relax from the hips down and allow our center of mass to move across the board as you initiate the toeside turn. If you are not staying soft with your ankles, knees and hips and moving down the hill into the turn you will most likely try to jump or twist to compensate and get the board around.

Try tweaking the bindings a bit, then find a moderate pitch to give it a whirl. Once you can smoothly link heel and toeside turns in a tight (one snowcat width or so) not too steep corridor with easy bumps, then you can start adding back in the pitch and terrain.

Hope this helps,

Sean

[Neil Gendzwill]

As far as scrubbing speed - good aggressive edge sets, and using the tops and sides of the bumps usually works for me. I had an epiphany on skis a few years ago when an instructor said that if you're getting out of control, turn down the fall line not across it. Counter-intuitive but it works.

[Guest jschal01]

Speed control in moguls/steeps: basically a crossunder turn, pull your legs in at turn initiation, push back out as turn progresses. It should feel sort of like controlled falling, and should yield far lower felt g-forces to your legs. Most people compress into the turn and then stand/hop up to start the next turn, i.e. crossover, this will kill your legs and yield less edge control. If it's too steep given conditions for crossunders, go to a tip roll, this still keeps you in contact with the snow and therefore yields more control than a jump turn.

Also, try to avoid a high edge angle and/or bottom heavy turn, instead use the whole turn to control speed.

[GeoffV]

As an aside from the main discussion, I wasn't aware there was anything that steep at Tuckerman's. According to this guide, the steepest section is 55. At those pitches, I think all you can do is jump-turn from one completely sideways edge-set to another.

Neil I've never seen the different chutes measured out, that's pretty cool. I'd always been told by local ski patrolers that the pitch if the main head wall was around 60, but my understanding is that it depends on the amount of snow on the pitch and how much has blown in from the top of Mt. Washington. Either way it is scary has hell trying to set an edge on the head wall or Hillmans.

[Guest Randy S.]

I can't really comment on bumps since I don't ride them, but I love steeps. In general, I'm less comfortable turning from heel to toe than the other way. As a result I usually try to plan my bailout turns for toe-to-heel where things get really sketchy - that's my safety turn.

The comment about it being a cross-under turn I think is fairly accurate. Also, its a big head turn. No, I don't mean turn your head, I mean a huge part of doing it successfully is in your head. The mental fortitude to launch all your weight out over your tip and straight down the fall line takes guts and practice. Mostly I just do a serious squat and try to explode just after setting my edge. Then rotate/crossunder as my body falls. Also looking for small terrain features that you can use to spring off of or load the board will make it easier to effect the jump turn. Keep your eyes ahead at all times. Never look at your board and always try to plan at least the next two turns. If you have to navigate between/around some rocks, look at the gap, not the rock. Don't let a looming cliff face intimidate you. Its the same turn whether the cliff is there or not (although the consequences of screwing up to escalate when cliffs are involved).

Oh, and whoever said Tuckerman Ravine isn't steep hasn't been there.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Oh, and whoever said Tuckerman Ravine isn't steep hasn't been there.

I haven't been there, but I also didn't say it wasn't steep. When Geoff said it was over 60 degrees I was just curious, because AFAIK pitches that steep aren't really rideable. At some point it just becomes a cliff. Anyways, 55 is plenty steep.

[snow|3oarder]

As far as scrubbing speed - good aggressive edge sets, and using the tops and sides of the bumps usually works for me. I had an epiphany on skis a few years ago when an instructor said that if you're getting out of control, turn down the fall line not across it. Counter-intuitive but it works.

same thing happend to me. helpful advice.

[snowboardfast]

are you using raichile boots? If you are ride your rear foot in powder mode-flip the adjuster over to the left and leave the lever in walk mode. this will soften up the boot and allow you to flex foward more for softer and uneven snow conditions. It keep you from getting locked in turns in the bumps. I tried riding both boots in powder mode but was afraid I was going to break my front boot becuse the ratchets were popping all the time from me pushing against it. If you are a lightweight rider you might try both boots in powder mode when riding off of groomed trails. I am using Lemans boots on a prior 174 4x4 with stance angles of 45 degrees on both feet. Bomber td1 step ins 3 degrees front 6 degrees rear. Yellow bumpers. I don't know if I can tell that much difference in the bumper hardnesses. I love it. I can ride all mountain with this and don't see the need to ride soft boots. If you are using the head stratos or Deluxe indy to ride in bumps you are using too stiff of a boot unless you are very heavy- 200 lbs or more. I weigh 185 and like the lemans boot for all mountain bumps and powder days. If I am going to ride groomed runs with a race board I use a pair of Head stratos boots with the orange tounges and 54 degree angles. I have spent more time this year on the 4x4 because the snow has been so good so far this year. Also I get bored riding groomed runs and like going all over the mountain riding variable terrain.

[NateW]

I try to think of my front foot as traveling straight down the fall line, with my weight mostly over my front foot, and with my back back foot swinging around behind me from side to side.

[Fleaman]

I am riding Lemans boots and do ride in the walk mode when in ungroomed conditions.

My stance is 20.25 inches and setback is minimal.

I went to my shop and lowered my angles to 54 and 51 or so. I kept my original cants because It took me a while to dial them in so I dont get any shin bang and it feels good just free carving.

I will try this out on saturday.

Thanks for all the tips and info.

[snowboardfast]

don't ride in walk mode. ride with your boots in powder mode as I said before. In walk mode you will be giving up control in heelside turns. turn the teardrop shaped adjuster to the left. this will put the boot in powder mode. the boots will be softer but stiff enough to carve well.

[RCrobar]

Hey Fleaman

Here is a guess to add to the ideas the others have offered.

Assumptions

Because you were riding with steeper angles I am going to assume you were riding straight down the zipper line, with a static upper body. I am also going to assuming that you are trying hard to keep your upper body quiet and facing down the fall line, while the legs are doing all the work.

Guess

My guess is that the trouble you are having going from the heelside to toe side edge is an upper body issue.

I’d be willing to bet that you are going great for a few bumps, then you get kicked out of the zipper line, your upper body gets pushed so that it is facing more or less ACROSS the fall line (not down it) and you are trying to get the lower body to rotate in the opposite direction ... a counter rotation.

The key advantage of the static upper body technique is the quick edge changes of the lower body, the main disadvantage is that counter rotations can happen quite easily.

Of course this is all pure speculation! Get one of the boarding buddies to shoot a quick video so you don’t have to guess what the issue is.

Hope this helps.

Rob

[cb200]

Hey this is my first post here and I have been on a snowboarding hiatus for a few years but thought that I would share my experiences with bumps and steeps. Bumps are usually made by a skis turning radius your board is not a ski so don't expect to ride them exactly like a skier. I like to make gs style turns through the bumps this means that my legs work a whole lot of up and down as I extend into the trough in between bumps and suck up as I go over one. This is an agressive riding style in the bumps the other thing that I throw in the mix is making my turns on the top of the bump (or airing from bump to bump) and looking ahead to where I want to turn.

This style may not work for all bumps or conditions.

Trees think of it as riding the spaces between them always look for the space between them. Even or especially when things get hairy look at where you want to go. Steeps use more of a jump turn style (or cross over) in your turns its actually easier because you can be unweighted longer as gravity takes you down the slope.

[markp]

Bumps are do-able in a gracefull way if you have soft round bumps, a tight radius board, 10 meters or less, and know your line. Skiers make short turns in the bumps...we have to make the same turn, except a little wider. Some suggest turning over the tops. No way. Too steep on the back side. Rather, look for the "smooth ruts" and run as wide around that line as possible. Each wide turn should meet a flat traverse, albiet a short one. Suck the rut up at the bottom of the turn and extend your legs when the bottom "falls out" to begin the next one. Maintain your carve by maintaining your conact with the snow. No air. It is soo much fun and so smooth.

Steeps....And I'm not talking cliffs here. Skiers also used the jump turns on steeps in the old days. It has evolved. So should we. Start each turn by traversing up the hill every time. This is a smooth way to keep your speed in check and lengthens the radius of the turns. Initiate the turn with your weight forward and a strong lean down the hill. There's a difference between vertcle and perpendicular. We naturally want to be vertcle, but that traps us to the inside. We need to be more perpendicular to the slope. Takes guts...and feel. We need to strive for the carved turn. That's what we do!

Forget the jump turn unless it's an emergercy. The jump turn is "up" unweighting. To carve On the steep, it's impossible to make a strong move up when the slope is going down...and going down fast! Rather, use "down" unweighting. Off your slightly uphill traverse, suck your legs up underneath you as you make that strong down hill lean. This allows you to get your board onto the up hill edge very quickly, a very important key. ie. Your perpendicular to the hill, you have your legs coiled underneath you and you are on your uphill edge. Perfect. The rest is simple. Make a round carved turn by extending your legs in rythem with the length of the turn. The first third of the turn is the most important third. Think "round". Carve around into an uphill traverse to do it all again.

Keep the upper body quiet and the lower body loud.

"....carving where no man has carved before."

[Guest Randy S.]

Steeps....And I'm not talking cliffs here. Skiers also used the jump turns on steeps in the old days. It has evolved. So should we. Start each turn by traversing up the hill every time. This is a smooth way to keep your speed in check and lengthens the radius of the turns. Initiate the turn with your weight forward and a strong lean down the hill. There's a difference between vertcle and perpendicular. We naturally want to be vertcle, but that traps us to the inside. We need to be more perpendicular to the slope. Takes guts...and feel. We need to strive for the carved turn. That's what we do!

Forget the jump turn unless it's an emergercy. The jump turn is "up" unweighting. To carve On the steep, it's impossible to make a strong move up when the slope is going down...and going down fast! Rather, use "down" unweighting. Off your slightly uphill traverse, suck your legs up underneath you as you make that strong down hill lean. This allows you to get your board onto the up hill edge very quickly, a very important key. ie. Your perpendicular to the hill, you have your legs coiled underneath you and you are on your uphill edge. Perfect. The rest is simple. Make a round carved turn by extending your legs in rythem with the length of the turn. The first third of the turn is the most important third. Think "round". Carve around into an uphill traverse to do it all again.

Keep the upper body quiet and the lower body loud.

"....carving where no man has carved before."

I agree with you on this. Except that most of the places I find true steeps are also very narrow. I know of very few super-steep, yet wide runs. The truly steep stuff is usually in a chute and therefore bordered on one or both sides by rock walls that hurt if you carve into them.

[Gleb]

Tuckerman's is awesome! I went there last year with 2 of my friends. I brought my miniskis and had a blast. Next time i'm defintly bringing my regular skis. Its defintly ridiculously steep. I can't imagine riding it on a carving board. I will go again in april. Last time i went, we had almost 100 miles of visibility and it was around 70 degrees outside. Too bad my friend's camera broke right when we got to the top of the head wall. We climbed a bit more to the top of mnt washington and then skiied down. We had a blast. If anyone goes carving there, please let me know. I defintly wanna watch.

[markp]

I agree with you on this. Except that most of the places I find true steeps are also very narrow. I know of very few super-steep, yet wide runs. The truly steep stuff is usually in a chute and therefore bordered on one or both sides by rock walls that hurt if you carve into them.

Randy; Right. That would qualify as an "emergency" rather quickly! Out here in the west and northwest were blessed with many steep runs that are quite wide. I rarely see carvers on them. Some are actually machine packed by attaching the big cable to a deadhead at the top of the run and loweing the snowcat over the edge and down. These are the absolute best. Smooth and steep. Unless it's a big dump of course, and your first!

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well if they bother to groom it the run is carvable. The really steep stuff is ungroomed and in that case speed controlled is accomplished either through the pow or the bumps. The jump turns are for when it's so steep and narrow that putting it on edge is either going to take you somewhere you don't wanna go, or cause you to more or less straightline it.

[markp]

are you using raichile boots? If you are ride your rear foot in powder mode-flip the adjuster over to the left and leave the lever in walk mode. this will soften up the boot and allow you to flex foward more for softer and uneven snow conditions. It keep you from getting locked in turns in the bumps. I tried riding both boots in powder mode but was afraid I was going to break my front boot becuse the ratchets were popping all the time from me pushing against it. If you are a lightweight rider you might try both boots in powder mode when riding off of groomed trails. I am using Lemans boots on a prior 174 4x4 with stance angles of 45 degrees on both feet. Bomber td1 step ins 3 degrees front 6 degrees rear. Yellow bumpers. I don't know if I can tell that much difference in the bumper hardnesses. I love it. I can ride all mountain with this and don't see the need to ride soft boots. If you are using the head stratos or Deluxe indy to ride in bumps you are using too stiff of a boot unless you are very heavy- 200 lbs or more. I weigh 185 and like the lemans boot for all mountain bumps and powder days. If I am going to ride groomed runs with a race board I use a pair of Head stratos boots with the orange tounges and 54 degree angles. I have spent more time this year on the 4x4 because the snow has been so good so far this year. Also I get bored riding groomed runs and like going all over the mountain riding variable terrain.

Hey Snowboardfast; You be the man! Thanks for the tip on the powder mode. I've had these boots for two years and I didn't know that was even there. I kept trying to go in the pow in walk mode.....not fun. Now I can't wait til it snows again!