X-post: Boot Out--Is this valid tech?

[quest4powder]

Hello,

I don't know if you ever go slumming on the AASI web forum, but there is a tech discussion going on there that has me way confused. Here's a link to the thread. If you get bumped to the log-in page, you can easily log in as a guest.

The two posts that confuse me are the ones on creating more pressure (by pushing) but tilting lower. Is this stuff valid? I never heard of pushing down, not out. Or of riding a 'lower but well pressured' edge.

Sounds like it defies physics to me--but what do I know? Thought the carving experts here could at least set me straight. Thanks.

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[Jack M]

It's not really valid.

I didn't read the thread, but you can only create so much pressure on your edge. Your mass is constant. You can move it around from tip to tail, but you can't magically create and sustain "more" pressure on the edge.

What you can do is angulate more to tip the board up to a higher edge angle. This will create a tighter turn, which will create higher g-forces, which puts more pressure on the edge. That's probably what they mean when they say that, though I suspect they may not realize it.

A guy sitting on the toilet, or bent over at the waist and reaching for the snow is creating just as much edge pressure as if he was riding perfectly (as long as he isn't touching the snow). It's just that he's far more likely to lose his balance.

[Neil Gendzwill]

A guy sitting on the toilet, or bent over at the waist and reaching for the snow is creating just as much edge pressure as if he was riding perfectly (as long as he isn't touching the snow).

Isn't he changing the vector though? If you considered a toeside turn where you're properly angulated, isn't the direction of the edge force more down compared to leaning towards the snow? Thus you have better edge hold as you're not pushing sideways so much but rather driving the edge into the snow?

[Tommy D]

Interesting. I've had more success holding a carve when I "Push" against the board in a carve ... Can this "Push" be described more technically? Maybe I'm not really pushing, but whatever I'm doing seems to work for me.

[Neil Gendzwill]

You can move it around from tip to tail, but you can't magically create and sustain "more" pressure on the edge.

Maybe you can't sustain it indefinitely but you can sure as hell put more pressure on the edge. Just drive with your legs, you'll generate more pressure.

[Phil]

I didn't read the thread, but you can only create so much pressure on your edge.

C'mon Jack, read the article.:)

O.K., that is not really what I joined the conversation to say.

I have to be really careful here so as not to offend some friends.

Mike is the only one that is saying that right now. He will be coming out with an article on it soon. Once the article comes out, we can discuss it further because, hopefully, it will be better explained. Right now, he has not explained himself.

I spent four days with Mike last year and he talked on and off about this issue. I don't really buy it as of now. But, I will wait until his article comes out in the Pro Rider before I make my final analysis.

My first thoughts are that Mike is talking about skidding more than carving.

Mike is a great guy and is trying to think outside the box for the sake of snowboard progression. I appreciate him for that. In his position, he can make a difference.

One way that what he is saying may have some merit is on ice:

If you are skidding turns on ice, it is better to stay over the board to keep pressure on your edges. At this point, using twisting and pivoting movements, you can turn the board faster. The one thing that you would not want to do at this point is use extension movements that would put the board further outside of the turn from your center of mass thus increasing edge angle.

That is the only way it makes sense to me, but again, let's wait until the article comes out.

[Jon Dahl]

reminds me of my good old race car days. It is possible to "create" more pressure, but it can be sustained for a shorter period of time. 4 link suspension systems and braking systems on separate links do just that. By changing link angles on a brake system, more force is applied, but for a shorter period of time. This can be taken to it's logical extreme and overpower the next item in the chain, aka the tire. As far as tying this to carving, hmm, you can overpower the edge by sudden pressure changes, or sustain lesser pressure for longer periods of time, aka, the freecarve turn back up the hill. I suppose the optimum is in between there somewhere, to be decided by you, the rider.

[Phil]

Furthermore (as if I haven't said enough) you will notice that he is responding to my post about my wide boards.

I am sooo tired of people with tiny little feet trying to tell me to ride a narrower board with my size 15's.

Mike is one of many people that used to be a devoted hardbooter that now tells me "I don't hardboot anymore because I can do anything on my softies that I could on hard... and more." To which I have two responses:

#1. Yeah, and I can do anything on my hard boots that I could in my softies...and more.

#2. Oh, really, then see if you can keep up!

[astrokel]

Pumping a skate/snow/surfboard seems like it would be a push outwards with a smaller downwards application of pressure (depending on how efficient your pump is that is I guess). Doing a "Bomber" style carve with most of the weight on top of the edge (as opposed to inside of the edge) would seem to be an application of pressure downwards with a small outward application of pressure (all that thigh burn happening is fighting the centrifigal force). The "EC" turn would seem to fall into the former world with some subtle movement differences in the upper body and a longer frequency cycle. All of these are hypotheses, btw, open to debate.

On a similar note of technique analysis the longboard riding I've been doing (just picked up a Loaded Vanguard) has given me an oppurtunity to think of really subtle movement analysis on the board especially when it comes to pumping because a really slight change in movement can affect the affectiveness of how one moves forward alot! Anyone else notice this?

Don't know if ANY of the stuff written above has ANYTHING to do with the original topic. Apologies if so...

[Jack M]

I haven't spent the mental energy on skidded turns because frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

If the turn is carved, there is one and only one vector that will balance everything out at a given radius.

You can carve different radii at the same speed using angulation, but again, for any constant carved radius, there is only one vector. The only thing body position helps is balance.

Now, pumping or suck-ups are a different matter, but they are transient maneuvers, kind of like counter-steering a motorcycle.

[Phil]

I will reiterate that it will be important to wait for the article. I can't imagine that he is talking about carving. If that were true, we would already have seen this kind of riding on the SL courses.

Mike is more into freeriding and freestyle. If I am not mistaken, he coached the six year old national slopestyle champ last year - imagine a six year old doing a 60' gap jump!

[astrokel]

I love it, every season this conversation or a variation of it inevitably comes up and it usually goes through a force vector phase (engineers and phisicists) into a "well that's how it feels" stage (designers and artists), a couple of arguements and then everyone making nice. Ain't carvin great! Engineers, physicists, designers, athletes, parents, kids, and D-sub (doh I said I'd stop it sorry ) all getting along in one big happy family.

[CarvCanada]

since snow is relatively soft, i bet that at a certain edge angle, you could be carving at a range of radii (yeah i'm a mix of one of those engineer types and "feel" types, did a project relating board design to carving technique for school, yay!)

if you're feathering it at a 45 degree edge angle, your board's tip and tail sections of the sidecut radius are taking a good portion of the pressure, whereas your waist isn't diggin' in too hard

if you start really pushing it dynamically and hold huge carves at 45 degrees, your tip and tail are taking less of the total pressure, and your waist is being forced hard into the snow. your tip and tail are still just a bit dug into the snow, they're mainly just guiding the board, whereas your waist is maybe 3-4 cm deeper into the snow (as long as it's not bulletproof ice) bitting hard, decreasing turning radius.

[philfell]

It's not really valid.

A guy sitting on the toilet, or bent over at the waist and reaching for the snow is creating just as much edge pressure as if he was riding perfectly (as long as he isn't touching the snow). It's just that he's far more likely to lose his balance.

This is assumeing that they are both do a turn with equal speeds and radiui.

You can increase and decrease edge pressue durning a turn, although not much. Stand on a scale start in a squat then extend your legs look what happens. Stand on a scale, strat standing tall then bend your knees untill you are in a squated position.

I haven't read the article nor this entire thread, so I'm probably not adding anything new or valuable, but I don't have much time and I wanted to add these two things.

Carry-on.