OT: Longboards and speed wobbles

[Dan]

I have a number of questions about speed wobbles...a topic of great personal interest since about 10 days ago. Could any of you skate savants clue me in?

1) Tightening trucks reduce speed wobbles, but which truck has a larger impact, front or back? Or are they equally important?

2) Is it possible to "ride through" speed wobbles? I.e., is there a certain speed where a given board/rider combo will be wobble-prone, but above that speed it will smooth out again? Or will it just get more and more unstable until the rider bails?

3) What should you do when you start to wobble? Specifically, which if any of these is effective?

-3a) Weighting the front foot and/or moving the front foot over the front truck. What about moving the front foot in front of the truck?

-3b) Relaxing your ankles and just focusing on riding smooth in general.

-3c) Change the frequency at which the board resonates by putting a hand or a knee on the deck. (Or, if your hands and knee are already on the deck, taking one or more off the deck.)

-3d) what else? Is there something else that works?

Yeah, that's everything, I think.

And the scrapes are healing nicely, should be good as new in another week or so. :-)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Hey Dan, did you take good photos of the damages before you got cleaned up?

:lol: Sorry to hear about the road rash, hope it wasn't from the MLY?

Don't go screwing yourself up just before the season starts now!!!

You are young , you will heal fast!!

Are you in a MHM 4X4 Group yet?

Mine is full but time to get going if you want to get one.

[lonerider]

Whoa there... maybe you should have gotten that kevlar stuff. When I do steeps I'm padded head to toe. You must be charging down those hills... . So how fast are you going now? 40-45 mph? And you are riding Randal 180 trucks? I will give you my personal experiences.

I did ride down the race hill that was use in the SF Gravity Fest games (those guys must be nuts as I hit 30 mph easily and then some doing less than half the hill) and learned that you can ride though wobbles... out of sheer survival I had to stop carving and just straight line the rest of the hill in a crouch - so I definitley went faster... but managed to control the wobbles nevertheless. I'm not an expert, so I'll just give you what I have observed.

1. Tighten the front truck that's where the wobbles come from. Also consider using higher quality harder duro bushings (90-95a) like Bones Hardcore or Khiro.

2. Yes, you can ride through them, while speed is a catalyst for the wobbles, it isn't the main cause of the wobbles. Usually it comes when you aren't thinking or when you get afraid of the hill, tense up and fail to control the board.

3a) Weighing the front foot does wonders. I've never tried moving my foot in front of the truck, but up until recently all my boards had the front truck nearly flush with the nose so that wasn't really possible. I suspect it is unnecessary.

b) Relaxing you ankle and riding smooth is also important (do not tense up!)

c) I tried that, it didn't seem to work very well because it's not the board that resonating... it's the trucks. Getting low helps though because if you do bail, you can just slide out onto your gloves and kneepads.

d) Actually yea... try inducing a low speed wobble and then practice controlling it. Find a mellow slope that you know very well... roll until you are going like 10 mph and then shift all you weight to the backfoot - as you increase in speed the board will eventually to wobble, as the front truck is just wandering aimlessly without any weight on it, if shift you quickly (that's key) weight forward and you should be able to quell the oscillations. If not you shouldn't be going more than 15 mph so you can just hop off. I discovered this when I was practicing riding switch (where I have a strong tendency to heavily rely on my switch-backfoot which is normally my front foot).

BTW: Have you learned to safety slide yet?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Speed wobbles happen when you hit a mechanical resonance in the system (system being the board, trucks, wheels, everything). You can either slow down or speed up to get rid of them. I haven't had a lot of luck speeding up... If you are consistently going fast enough to get wobs, you need to tighten your trucks or better yet get ones with more stable geometry for speed.

[Gecko]

no comment on falling down...as was stated above the front truck is the one that causes wobbles like head shake on a motorcycle. I skate loose trucks...floppy loose at times however I also skate 94a-96a bushings (a requirement for my 170lbs to prevent wheel bite more than anything else). I can't beleive you got RII 180's to wobble...that's impressive...I used to get wobbles with my Indy 215's and would usually turn to shed them...shifting forward also help the problem is shifting the front foot at all only makes the problem worse...unweighting the rear (if you are going in a straight line) or shifting your hips (if you are turning) acheive the same result without the increased risk

[Dan]

Hey Dan, did you take good photos of the damages before you got cleaned up?

Hey Bryan, I wish I had, but I didn't think about it until you suggested it. Too bad... I took a photo of my left leg just now though - check it out. [apologies if anyone is eating.] The road rash on my leg was really shallow, but it covered a patch about the size of my hand. The elbows were deeper and will probably take a little longer to heal up.

All in all though

:lol: Sorry to hear about the road rash, hope it wasn't from the MLY?

I'm afraid it was the MLY. Poor thing, it leaves a nice household where it's loved and taken care of (your place), and comes home with me, where it gets the snot beat out of it on a semi-regular basis. The base still looks nice, but there's definitely some new scrapes/dents around the nose...oh yeah, and some tire marks. (from a parked car - fortunately I wasn't on the board when it happened.)

Everyone, thanks for the advice. It wasn't really that gnarly a wreck: I was probably doing around 30, kneeling on the board, when I got the wobbles and went down. I don't actually have Randalls now, just Indys and I'm not sure what model they are. I do have risers, but again, I'm not sure about the duro.

Basically it was me being sloppy - I'm a new longboarder and I didn't realize that my trucks had worked themselves so loose. Compounded by the fact that it was the _only_ time I've ever ridden that hill (Mt. Tabor) without pads...yes, I'm a moron. Ridden there a bunch and never wrecked, so when I was walking up one day and saw the Eastside Longboard crew coming down, I figured I'd just jump in and throw on my pads at the bottom. Murphy's Law in action. All things considered, I got off easy: road rash but I didn't hurt my shoulders or wrists, so can't complain.

I haven't gotten the kevlar yet, but I think I will. I haven't learned to slide yet, but I can foot drag pretty comfortably. Sliding is tricky 'cause I'd like to use my wrist guards when I'm learning, but they're not compatible with sliding gloves. As far as NCDSA.com, agree there's a lot of good info/knowledgeable folks there, but the signal:noise ratio seems to be a lot lower than here...maybe it's just 'cause I haven't spent as much time there.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the advice. I hope we have an early, long winter so I can take a break from falling on asphalt for a while and spend some time falling on snow instead.

[Gecko]

it's not so much on my DH as my pool/ramp boards...I just use the same bushings for all (Supercush 97A) to keep the feel similar...Risers are normal for me but I often switch wheels around depending on surface, my ramp wheels are 58mm 96a, pool 54mm 102a (though lately I've been liking a Ricta 83b...anyone know the difference between a and b scale). The diffence in size is enough to give me wheel bite with bigger wheels and blow out bushings with soft rubbers...I cand skate tight enough trucks to allow soft bushings (and you can't slappy tight trucks)

I haven't been on Khiro's how do they compare to other bushings (stock and aftermarket)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Hi Dan Yep, that is a pretty good patch. I hope you have some "E" or something on it? Keep the scaring down. Hey , ride the crap out of it. I have more You have gotten good use out of it. I had some red Randals that were super cool and ideal for high speed. I have sold most of my skate stuff. Falling on asphalt / concrete has become less appealing in the last 5 years. I still have a nice "Tahoe" longboard , but it hasn't seen much action. I do like the carving action. Heal up and don't pick it

Thanks for the photo. You don't mind if I put it in the gallery :p (kiddin)

[astrokel]

Yikes Dan. Looks like good pickins :rolleyes: I just got my first board and been playing with it on mostly flat and very small hills. I don't heal as fast as I used to so I'm going to try to avoid the speed wobbles but have encountered them in very small doses. I have a question about bushings for you guys... I just got a Vanguard and been playing around with the bushings. Any recommendations for specific bushings for relatively low speeds and pumping? I tried to order some stuff from Radikal but haven't heard anything (emails or whatever) regarding the status, what have been your experiences with those guys... Thanks!

[Cindy Kleh]

I have never experienced speed wobbles on the T-board. I've gone up to 40 MPH (which seems like 80 MPH. Seems the faster it travels, the smoother the ride. I have felt wobbles on longboards like the Loaded. I think it's the 2-wheel vs 4-wheel thing.

Nice road rash. Makes me think twice about skating in shorts and t-shirt. Guess I've been lucky. At least I bought a helmet. Next purchase? Health insurance.

[Mike Tokar]

Sorry to hear about the crash, but thanks for posting about the wobbles, and thanks for the great advice in response. I agree about keeping the weight in the front to prevent wobbles, but I also like to keep a little 'edge pressure' to one side or the other. It seems like if you're turning the board one way or the other, even slightly, it helps keep things under control.

66 days until first runs!

MT

[lonerider]

Everyone, thanks for the advice. It wasn't really that gnarly a wreck: I was probably doing around 30, kneeling on the board, when I got the wobbles and went down. I don't actually have Randalls now, just Indys and I'm not sure what model they are.

I haven't gotten the kevlar yet, but I think I will. I haven't learned to slide yet, but I can foot drag pretty comfortably. Sliding is tricky 'cause I'd like to use my wrist guards when I'm learning, but they're not compatible with sliding gloves.

Because of the way Indy's turn (quicker in the beginner and then stop) they are slightly more prone to wobbles, especially if you leave them lose. Although I definitely know you can take them above 40 mph.

Foot dragging is very useful, but learning how to drift your turns will expand your repetoire. You can drift a little without putting your hand on the ground. I wear TimeShip Racing Bearpaws and my wrist guard easily fit underneath the big gauntlet shaped gloves. You should look into them (www.timeshipracing.com).

NCDSA does have a bit of noise, but not that much more than here at BOL, your just not used to the characeters that roam over there :) Silverfish also has a lot of useful information, again with a bit of teenage chatter. Just use the search functionality and you will never need to post an actual query.

Any recommendations for specific bushings for relatively low speeds and pumping? I tried to order some stuff from Radikal but haven't heard anything (emails or whatever) regarding the status, what have been your experiences with those guys... Thanks!

Khiro bushings are basically the gold standard of aftermarket bushings, definitely better than the stock stuff. I like Khiro barrel bushings in blue (I'm 150 lbs) for carving. If you are under 130 lbs, the white bushings (crazy soft) are good for pumping. If you are heavier (170ish) go for the reds or even harder duros.

Bones Hardcores are more expensive, but they are awesome for pumping. If you weight less than 160 lbs, I recommend the soft bushings, but the mediums are good too.

I ordered a 10-pack from Radikal and it took roughly 4 weeks to get to me (although they charged my CC immediately). They are honest, just slow. The clear bushings are ultra-soft and gummy, awesome for pumping as are the red bushings. I would recommend those for people in the 130-160 lbs range. The blue and green bushings are better for 160-190 range.

I happen to like thick barrel bushings better as they will compress more and give you more of a progressive loadup before stopping your lean. My favorite pumping combinations are:

~150 lb rider

Radikal Clear bottom (deckside) / Radikal Red top (roadside).

Radikal Clear bottom / Radikal Blue top

Bones Hardcore Soft bottom/top

Radikal Clear bottom / Bones Hardcore Soft bottom

~170 lbs rider

Radikal Red bottom (deckside) / Radikal Blue top (roadside).

Radikal Red bottom (deckside) / Radikal Green top (roadside).

Bones Hardcore Medium bottom/top

Radikal Red bottom / Bones Hardcore Medium bottom

[astrokel]

Thanks for the info lonerider... I'll try out the Khiros

[Bordy]

This is the Kiro Kit.

There is another kit with twice the hourglass shapes.

The barrel bushing are the most durable. I tend to rip right through the insert in the hourglass.

Its a great way to mix and match ,top blue bottom white etc.then once you know what you like then you can just by replacements. Or if you need to up the bushing its in your bag!

:lol:

[Dan]

I have never experienced speed wobbles on the T-board. I've gone up to 40 MPH (which seems like 80 MPH. Seems the faster it travels, the smoother the ride. I have felt wobbles on longboards like the Loaded. I think it's the 2-wheel vs 4-wheel thing.

Nice road rash. Makes me think twice about skating in shorts and t-shirt. Guess I've been lucky. At least I bought a helmet. Next purchase? Health insurance.

The T-board looks nuts! I tried one in REI once and promptly fell on my a$$. The kind of sad thing is that I have a Dirt Surfer, and I've hardly ridden it at all. The Dirt Surfer is fun and pretty easy to pick up, but drifting corners on longboards looks so cool...it's actually a little sexier than the Dirt Surfer for me right now. Agreed that 2 wheels are probably more stable at speed than 4, though there are exceptions (have you seen any of those crash clips showing racing motorcycles developing speed wobbles? Yikes.)

As far as skating in shorts and t-shirt...well...I've made enough bad decisions that I'm not in much of a position to talk. However, I can't imagine riding without a helmet. One of the kids I ride with (literally; he's a high-school sophomore), is a really strong, talented downhiller, but had a brush with Murphy's Law about a month ago and wound up with a concussion - through his helmet. Scary stuff.

When it's hot, it's hard to put on jeans and a long shirt, but I will say that on the occasions when I've been smart enough to wear pads, they've definitely saved me some pain, and maybe a broken wrist or two.

Lonerider, thanks for the advice on the Bearpaws - I'll check them out. Hope to be riding corners like <a href="http://eastsidelongboards.com/movies/2005/Sept./Tabor%20Rollers%20.AVI">this</a> before the rain starts. :-)

[Alex Walters]

Speed wobbles can be a problem. What trucks do you have on your board, are the trucks weged? Most trucks actually aren't very stable at high speed especially if they're weged. If you start to get really bad uncontrollable speed wobbles when you're riding my only advice is aim for soft ground like grass. My suggestion is go slower. Practice going slower and gradually work up your speed. If you're the slightest bit tense or uncomfortable with your speed you'll get speed wobbles. If you practice and work your speed up you'll be more comfortable with going fast and in the event you do get wobbles you'll be better able to stop wobbling before they get too bad.

[astrokel]

Wow Dan,

Is that Mt. Tabor in the video? I'm thinking about moving to Portland and it looks real purty there...

[slopetool]

Hi Dan, yea! The video looks great. Is that a little Wed. pm session that goes on up at Mt. Tabor every week?

See you on the hills- Talk to you soon

Ed

[lonerider]

Lonerider, thanks for the advice on the Bearpaws - I'll check them out. Hope to be riding corners like <a href="http://eastsidelongboards.com/movies/2005/Sept./Tabor%20Rollers%20.AVI">this</a> before the rain starts. :-)

That's a sweet road, and that turn is really nice and wide... once you learn how to drift (you don't need to put down your hand) you can definitely take that turn with a lot of speed because you will be able to scrub as you turn (just like on a snowboard)

[AaronG]

Dan, as a frequent exhibitor of road rash from my road bike, I hate Criteriums with Cat 5 riders!!! you need to get that scab as soft as possible with warm wash cloths. WEt the wash cloths and toss em into the microwave, then take the hot cloths and wrap that scab up, continue to do this until the scab gets soft and then scrub it off. It will hurt like hell but it will lead to better and faster healing and less scarring.

Once the scab is gone, use lots of neosporin to keep the scabbing away. Keep the wound exposed to the air as much as possible, only use a gauze when you don't want to get things nasty from the pus. When the wound is bright pink is when the best healing is occuring!!

[lonerider]

Dan, as a frequent exhibitor of road rash from my road bike, I hate Criteriums with Cat 5 riders!!! you need to get that scab as soft as possible with warm wash cloths. WEt the wash cloths and toss em into the microwave, then take the hot cloths and wrap that scab up, continue to do this until the scab gets soft and then scrub it off. It will hurt like hell but it will lead to better and faster healing and less scarring.

Once the scab is gone, use lots of neosporin to keep the scabbing away. Keep the wound exposed to the air as much as possible, only use a gauze when you don't want to get things nasty from the pus. When the wound is bright pink is when the best healing is occuring!!

I don't know if that's the best idea... but I usually just spray on liquid skin... it acts like a flexible scab, but don't dry out and crack like a scab. I'm so padded up though that I don't usually get big road rash.

[Gecko]

For Pools and Ramp I always wear shorts (winter I add long johns). Helmet knee pads and wristguards are normal, I don't wear elbow pads as often as I should (the ones I have are ancient Rectors that I haven't replaced them with PD's yet) which bites me about once out of every 10-15 times skating...DH skating what I wear depends on the type of hills...Speed I wear my motorcycle gear though I have yet to need it (knock on wood) Carving I admit to being a lot more careless...Jeans, gloves, skate helmet...I've been lucky

[Dan]

Wow Dan,

Is that Mt. Tabor in the video? I'm thinking about moving to Portland and it looks real purty there...

Hey Astrokel, yes, that is indeed Mt. Tabor. Portland's great - you should definitely move to town!

Hi Dan, yea! The video looks great. Is that a little Wed. pm session that goes on up at Mt. Tabor every week?

See you on the hills- Talk to you soon

Ed

Hey Ed, yep, that's a regular Wednesday night session, loosely organized by the Eastside Longboard guys. They do all kinds of group rides: right now they're planning a trip to the downhill at Maryhill this week and a road race for October ("The Portland Pusher").

I'd be stoked to see you on Tabor - would be really nice to have some other carvers up there. Let me know if you plan to head up some week.

Once the scab is gone, use lots of neosporin to keep the scabbing away. Keep the wound exposed to the air as much as possible, only use a gauze when you don't want to get things nasty from the pus. When the wound is bright pink is when the best healing is occuring!!

Hey Oldvolvos, I pretty much agree with your treatment advice: that's what I did for the road rash on my arms, and it made a big difference. After washing out well, I used a lot of 3M Nexcare and Tagaderm pads (waterproof/gas-permeable adhesive bandages) to keep stuff clean and moist - you can even shower with them on. The areas I treated like that had no scabbing, healed much faster (as in 85% healed up already), and had very little scarring.

The problem with my leg is that it's just too much surface area to cover with one of the new-school dressings - that and the leg hair would make that painful anyway. I can't deal with leaving it open/applying neosporin because I need to be able to wear long pants at work, so all in all letting it scab over was just the path of least resistance.

The abrasion on my leg was really shallow, so I'm hoping for minimal or no scarring, but we'll see. I kind of hope it doesn't scar, but I can live with it if it does: it's not like having a big old pirate scar on my face. On my leg, most people won't even notice.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Watch that you don't overdo it with the antibiotic cream. Last fall I split my shin open on the coping at the local pool and it was 3 months healing. In the process the wound eventually started to react to the antibiotic cream, and when I stopped applying it things got better.

[FTA2R]

hi,

I had a mole removed a few weeks ago and teh dermatologist said it is an old wives tale that the wound heals faster exposed to air. I agree, you do not want to let it scab. Neosporin (aka triple antibiotic ointment) should be on teh wound asap, and a bandaid or bandage over that. The sport strips work very well for me, easier to take off. If it's itching, that means healing is occurring. larger the wound, more drainage there will be, which in yoru case is probably quite a bit. Since you already have a scab, i'm not sure what you should do. i used this method to care for road rash on my elbow i had received the first day I skated (lol) and while it is a scar, it's not anything really knarly. there is also a $20 OTC cream to reduce scarring, i have no idea how it works though. heal well.