Japanese Carving Board Suggestion

[sfyoung]

I just returned from a trip to Japan, but since it's summer, there weren't many snowboards available in the stores. I did see some Gray snowboards for around $700-800 USD, but not the Desperado Ti Type R, which I've heard people rave about.

A little background about my riding: I weigh around 150 lbs with size 9 boots and mostly ride groomers, freeride, and carve similar to the Japanese style where riders touch the snow with their hand. I have a custom Donek Saber SBX for carving, but I feel like the sidecut radius isn’t quite long enough for drawn-out carves. It's somewhere between the Japanese carving style and the Euro carve. The Donek is pretty bare-bones and lacks tech compared to my Ride Commissioner, which I use for freeride or when riding with friends.

I also had an F2 Eliminator, but I broke it in half, and that board was too stiff for smooth turn transitions. Some say the Ride Commissioner is difficult to use but I find the Donek even harder. With the Donek, I frequently have to keep it on edge or risk catching an edge when going straight but it's still my daily driver.

Since I’m planning to go back to Japan to snowboard this coming Feb or March, I’m wondering if it’s worth getting one of their carving boards with a hammerhead style. Does anyone have experience with the Gray Desperado or other carving-specific snowboards from Japan? Are they really different or worth buying if I already have a Donek?

[ShortcutToMoncton]

What “tech” does the Ride Commissioner have that the Saber lacks? I understand that there are pretty high-level BX racers on the Saber….

I’m no board maker, but BX boards are typically designed for fast banked turns and accelerating downhill (not across) instead of holding an edge. They aren’t meant to carve across the fall line at high edge angles. I can’t speak for all of them, but I did not consider any of the 5 or 6 BX boards I’ve tried (including one of Sean’s early Saber prototypes) to be particularly carving-friendly. That’s not what they’re designed to do. 

Edited September 10 by ShortcutToMoncton

[Sunan]

On 9/8/2024 at 4:41 PM, sfyoung said:

I just returned from a trip to Japan, but since it's summer, there weren't many snowboards available in the stores. I did see some Gray snowboards for around $700-800 USD, but not the Desperado Ti Type R, which I've heard people rave about.

A little background about my riding: I weigh around 150 lbs with size 9 boots and mostly ride groomers, freeride, and carve similar to the Japanese style where riders touch the snow with their hand. I have a custom Donek Saber SBX for carving, but I feel like the sidecut radius isn’t quite long enough for drawn-out carves. It's somewhere between the Japanese carving style and the Euro carve. The Donek is pretty bare-bones and lacks tech compared to my Ride Commissioner, which I use for freeride or when riding with friends.

I also had an F2 Eliminator, but I broke it in half, and that board was too stiff for smooth turn transitions. Some say the Ride Commissioner is difficult to use but I find the Donek even harder. With the Donek, I frequently have to keep it on edge or risk catching an edge when going straight but it's still my daily driver.

Since I’m planning to go back to Japan to snowboard this coming Feb or March, I’m wondering if it’s worth getting one of their carving boards with a hammerhead style. Does anyone have experience with the Gray Desperado or other carving-specific snowboards from Japan? Are they really different or worth buying if I already have a Donek?

From your description, I'd say a Type-R 166, which has a scr of 12.8m~13.6m and a waist of 256mm, or a Moss Legit 163, which has a scr of 11m and a waist of 264mm. Both have titanal construction but aren't difficult to control for advanced riders. The $800 piece you saw is Gray Delight, a beginner-friendly entry-level carving hammerhead snowboard. Delight is rather popular cuz most riders stay at the beginner-intermediate level. There are tens of thousands of new Delight users each year. 

 

  Gray type-R simply doesn't show up in the stores on a daily basis, as they are often sold out during the pre-order phase, typically from Jan to March, depending on the country. For the US, for example, the Type-Rs were available from Jan 20 but were sold out on Feb 2. I've managed to request more quotas for the piece, but the additional quota was sold out in just one day. There is a waiting list for Type-R in the US and Canada. The 160W is very popular as it has a 9.2~10.2m scr very comfortable for middle carving turns. But since you wanted a longer more drawn-out turn, I'd say the 166W is better. 

   Moss Legit is another trophy-winning carving board in Japan that is getting more popular elsewhere. In terms of design, the board uses some form of complex resin that allows the board to rebound more like a pure-wood snowboard rather than a titanal construction one. 

[Spoon Shao]

In short, I recommend Ogasaka FC-S.

Japanese boards mostly dominate Chinese carving board market so I tried and learned about them a lot, hope it would be some help.

Basically 5 brands are well-known and they all suit your needs to certain degree: Ogasaka, Gray, BC Stream, Moss, Yonex(yes, the famous badmintion brand). Since you mostly ride japanese style, all brands suit you, but if you want a closer look, there are some small differences.

For Ogasaka, their most popular model for carving would be FC and FC-S(s for stiff, most male riders ride fcs, the fc model would be to soft for most male riders), they have stiffer noses and are loved by people that ride hardboot as well. This is because other brands have rather soft noses (especially BC Stream), so if you press too hard at the begining of the turn, it would bend the nose part way too quick and making the turn radius way too small. It is said that ONLY Ogasaka has their own factory and all other Japanese brands' boards are made in Ogasaka's factory.(P.S. Their stiffest model is XC, hammer head with 15.8m radius, really aggressive, probably to much to ride on)

For Gray, people always love their type-r before they buy it, but most of the time type-r would be way too stiff and uncomfortable for most rider. I would recommend their Desperado Tic or even Desperado LT, the latter would be lighter and easier to do some buttering on it. 

For BC Stream, they are famous for a easy start of the turn (and the Infinity style created by their rider RAMA), and their RX, R2, GR model are loved by riders. For those who enjoy a larger radius, H or even H Metal model would be a better choice. BUT, BC Stream board's cover material is really trashy, very easy to break.

For Moss, they were rather niche but recently they starts to make moves to international market. I bought their RRR model for my girlfriend and she enjoys it. But personally I never rode any moss board, so no comment so far. Their Twister model is popular.

For Yonex, they really make light boards. By using a lot of carbon fiber, their boards are really light. Their carving models include Symarc and Thrust. I own a 169 Thrust and they feels good. Light, easy to carve, steady while carving. They held lots of test ride events in China, so I guess there would be more test events in Japan. You can try them out if you had chance. 

[Sunan]

1 hour ago, Spoon Shao said:

In short, I recommend Ogasaka FC-S.

Japanese boards mostly dominate Chinese carving board market so I tried and learned about them a lot, hope it would be some help.

Basically 5 brands are well-known and they all suit your needs to certain degree: Ogasaka, Gray, BC Stream, Moss, Yonex(yes, the famous badmintion brand). Since you mostly ride japanese style, all brands suit you, but if you want a closer look, there are some small differences.

For Ogasaka, their most popular model for carving would be FC and FC-S(s for stiff, most male riders ride fcs, the fc model would be to soft for most male riders), they have stiffer noses and are loved by people that ride hardboot as well. This is because other brands have rather soft noses (especially BC Stream), so if you press too hard at the begining of the turn, it would bend the nose part way too quick and making the turn radius way too small. It is said that ONLY Ogasaka has their own factory and all other Japanese brands' boards are made in Ogasaka's factory.(P.S. Their stiffest model is XC, hammer head with 15.8m radius, really aggressive, probably to much to ride on)

For Gray, people always love their type-r before they buy it, but most of the time type-r would be way too stiff and uncomfortable for most rider. I would recommend their Desperado Tic or even Desperado LT, the latter would be lighter and easier to do some buttering on it. 

For BC Stream, they are famous for a easy start of the turn (and the Infinity style created by their rider RAMA), and their RX, R2, GR model are loved by riders. For those who enjoy a larger radius, H or even H Metal model would be a better choice. BUT, BC Stream board's cover material is really trashy, very easy to break.

For Moss, they were rather niche but recently they starts to make moves to international market. I bought their RRR model for my girlfriend and she enjoys it. But personally I never rode any moss board, so no comment so far. Their Twister model is popular.

For Yonex, they really make light boards. By using a lot of carbon fiber, their boards are really light. Their carving models include Symarc and Thrust. I own a 169 Thrust and they feels good. Light, easy to carve, steady while carving. They held lots of test ride events in China, so I guess there would be more test events in Japan. You can try them out if you had chance. 

There’s a Demo event this Sunday Sept 15 at Big Snow American Dream. Most of the Japanese boards discussed, except for BC Stream will be available for testing. 
 

Gray Delight; Gray Deseprado Ti Type-R, Gray Mach;  Yonex Symarc, Yonex Symarc MG, Yonex Thrust; Moss Legit, Moss TWFD, Moss RRR; Ogasaka XC-R, Ogasaka FC-S, Ogasaka CT-Iz (XC is not offered due to its large radius in the narrow environment, a cause for safety concerns). 
 

Gray Desperado LT is only limited to consumers in China and has equivalent pieces from other brands mentioned above. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

So I have a 163cm Coiler softboot board (~10m or so sidecut, 28.3 waist) and tried out a 160cm Gray Desperado Type R last year from someone I met at the hill. I got to do back to back runs on the Coiler and Gray. 

As far as I’m concerned, for me (with smaller 8.5US feet) the waist is too narrow unless you want to run dedicated super-high stance angles. That’s just…end of story. Maybe if you have size 7 boots. But your size 9s would probably need 30 rear and 40 front binding angles or else your heels and toes will drag once you really get leaned over. Hey, some people love running high angles in softboots, and maybe you’re one of them. But it’s not what I want from a softboot rider. 

The Type R was nice, but I liked my Coiler Contra much more. But I could be biased.

[Sunan]

On 9/12/2024 at 9:29 PM, ShortcutToMoncton said:

So I have a 163cm Coiler softboot board (~10m or so sidecut, 28.3 waist) and tried out a 160cm Gray Desperado Type R last year from someone I met at the hill. I got to do back to back runs on the Coiler and Gray. 

As far as I’m concerned, for me (with smaller 8.5US feet) the waist is too narrow unless you want to run dedicated super-high stance angles. That’s just…end of story. Maybe if you have size 7 boots. But your size 9s would probably need 30 rear and 40 front binding angles or else your heels and toes will drag once you really get leaned over. Hey, some people love running high angles in softboots, and maybe you’re one of them. But it’s not what I want from a softboot rider. 

The Type R was nice, but I liked my Coiler Contra much more. But I could be biased.

There isn’t a best solution for everything per se. It’s about a better suit for personal scenario and riding style. Here, everyone is biased

  For a 256mm waist (the 160W Type R) the lowest setup I know (competition ready) is 33°/21° 56cm on a 5’10” 165lb guy. For lower angles board waist could be too narrow especially in powder situations. 
 

  Coiler is very popular in North America. I have yet to ride one and I look forward to testing it out.

[fumbimo]

I'm with @ShortcutToMoncton, the desparado ti-R is an impressive board but i prefer my coiler. (Chances we rode the same one at mslm?) haha. Considering you already have a donek i'd say it could be worth getting a japanese board, specifically one with titanal. I don't personally have experience with japanese boards outside of the desparado ti-r but comparing it to the few donek flux's i've ridden i'd definitely prefer it to the donek.

[dhamann]

can a mondo 30 really carve on anything less than a 33 waist? don't like to compromise on technique.

[Jack M]

On 9/9/2024 at 9:24 PM, ShortcutToMoncton said:

What “tech” does the Ride Commissioner have that the Saber lacks?

The Commissioner (formerly Timeless) is dripping with tech.  Titanal, carbon fiber, some kind of gummy sidewall material, VSR, etc.

[Neil Gendzwill]

9 minutes ago, Jack M said:

The Commissioner (formerly Timeless) is dripping with tech.  Titanal, carbon fiber, some kind of gummy sidewall material, VSR, etc.

Not sure the small manufacturers can really keep up with the big guns on tech. Something like the Capita MegaDeath really highlights that. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

5 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

5 hours ago, Jack M said:

The Commissioner (formerly Timeless) is dripping with tech.  Titanal, carbon fiber, some kind of gummy sidewall material, VSR, etc.

Not sure the small manufacturers can really keep up with the big guns on tech. Something like the Capita MegaDeath really highlights that. 

Maybe I’ll try to pick one up. My boards are built by a dude with handmade equipment in his garage but they also have titanal, carbon fibre, VSR, fast bases…..no squishy sidewalls though, Bruce loses out there

[Neil Gendzwill]

Bruce builds great boards but they are heavy. The MegaDeath is a wonder of lightweight construction. 

[Jack M]

10 hours ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Maybe I’ll try to pick one up. My boards are built by a dude with handmade equipment in his garage but they also have titanal, carbon fibre, VSR, fast bases…..no squishy sidewalls though, Bruce loses out there

Sorry, not VSR, but "progressive elliptical", with the long curve in the middle.  There's more to them than that.

Don't dismiss them, check them out.  But if you want a 165, act fast as the 2025 line only has 2 sizes.

If they made a hammerhead/bx shaped board in the same construction it would really be something special for softboot carvers.  As is, it's a one-board-to-rule-them-all jackknife.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I am picked up a Nidecker Ultralite (?) in the store this spring and it was pretty light and cool looking with that 3D top stuff. Although I don’t know what any of these boards actually weigh. 

To me buying off the shelf always comes back to combination of waist width and radius. That 157W with 264mm and 10m looks tasty. 

Being honest, it’s always a tough sell to pay more to buy Ride or Capita or Nidecker rather than go to Bruce. I’ll probably keep an eye out for a used sale (or a demo day) to try one out.

[Jack M]

25 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Being honest, it’s always a tough sell to pay more to buy Ride or Capita or Nidecker rather than go to Bruce.

For sure, I would rather patronize the microbrews.  Just saying the RC is legit.  I'm seeing new 2024s online for US$500 and 2023s for $400.  If you're paying less for Coilers you're special!

[BlueB]

20 hours ago, Jack M said:

The Commissioner (formerly Timeless) is dripping with tech.  Titanal, carbon fiber, some kind of gummy sidewall material, VSR, etc.

The metaltop Timelss is one of the best mass-produced softboot carving boards I have ever ridden. However, it was way to wide for my baby sized hard boots, even to ride it duck. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

5 hours ago, Jack M said:

For sure, I would rather patronize the microbrews.  Just saying the RC is legit.  I'm seeing new 2024s online for US$500 and 2023s for $400.  If you're paying less for Coilers you're special!

Yeah, there’s a border & currency issue here for sure. But I noticed that the Commissioner just seems far more reasonably priced than the Ultralight or Mega Death. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Well the MegaDeath is targeted at a niche boutique market. For most people the regular BSOD is a better choice. And cheaper. 

[ShortcutToMoncton]

52 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Well the MegaDeath is targeted at a niche boutique market. For most people the regular BSOD is a better choice. And cheaper. 

I’m on this board…”niche boutique” might as well be my middle names.   What does BSOD mean?

[Neil Gendzwill]

Black Snowboard of Death.  The MegaDeath is the premium version of that board.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Great stuff. I have Bruce’s 164/28.3/~10m Contra and a Vaughan 160/27.5/9m Wildcard coming soon, so I don’t need any more overlap on those (a nice SL board is probably my next goal ). I’ll make sure I hit some shop demo days this year to try out a new Commissioner or Capita board.

Would be great to have more demos of the Japanese boards but perhaps going to Japan may be the only option there….

[dredman]

51 minutes ago, ShortcutToMoncton said:

Would be great to have more demos of the Japanese boards but perhaps going to Japan may be the only option there….

https://www.powderbowl.com Just had a demo event at an indoor ski park in NJ.  Tons of exotic demos!!  Powder Bowl is now a partner with MCC so expect some exotic demos at this years event.