Help needed troubleshooting alpine setup

[Cthulhufish]

I'm a softbooter still learning alpine riding. I pulled my alpine gear out of storage and did my first lap of the season on it today and things went a lot worse than I expected. My board felt sluggish and sloppy, requiring much larger motions to move than I expected. I tried adjusting my binding angles on the slope since they felt off to me, but with little success. It was bad enough that I called it quits after a single run rather than trying to fight my board (things were getting a bit crowded). And I lack the experience with alpine gear to diagnose what was going wrong. I could really use some help trying to get things setup a little better before trying to take ride it again.

Setup: Donek Voyager, 160cm long, 19cm waist, 9m sidecut, custom ordered to weight; UPZ RC12s with stock springs and tongue, custom insoles; F2 Race Titanium bindings.

I forgot to write down my stance setup etc last spring and kind of guessed at angles. I think they were around 47/40. They're currently at about 51/40 after playing with them on the slope. Which sounds too wide to me, but I was adjusting more off of feel than looking at the numbers and didn't notice how much splay I added. Stance is on reference. I wasn't making turns well enough to feel out issues with setback or width.

My front binding has one inward cant wedge. Back is flat. I remember experimenting with different wedge combinations last season but forget how and why I arrived at that.

I suspect my UPZs (or the stock liners) might be the culprit. They should be the right size (24.5MP feet, 279mm shells with 24.5 liners). I buckled the shell down to what I thought was reasonable snugness just shy of causing issues, but my feet didn't feel very secure when trying to lean into turns. I'm new enough to hardboots that I could very well be buckling them wrong. I think I have excess space above my ankle and forefoot. I do have new custom insoles, but they take up more volume than my old insoles and feel fine so far. I have narrow shins and loose uppers are a constant issue for me with snowboard boots, so that could be part of it. I'll definitely try cinching things down tighter next time, though I'm not sure my feet can take it. My boots were locked in ride mode, but the angle I locked them to could have been off. That's something I still don't have a good feel for with alpine boots.

Obviously technique is part of it. I am very much still a beginner at alpine. But given my weight and the hardware connecting me to the board, I'd expect it to feel too twitchy if anything, not sluggish and unresponsive.

On a positive note, I might have finally broken my habit of trying to whip my alpine board into skids like it's a freestyle board.

[barryj]

27 minutes ago, Cthulhufish said:

They're currently at about 51/40

Hey CT,

Don't know UPZ's or f2 bindings..... but 51/40 angles on a 19 w board sounds like part of the problem.   

The difference between the front foot and rear is usually not more than 5 degrees and none of my boards would feel/be responsive at 51/40.

Additionally 51/40 on a 19w board sure sounds like Boot Out potential on both feet.

I would try 55/50 .....or the maximum angles to not boot out and add a few degrees more to the rear foot.

Also, I'm sure the UPZ, f2 posse will chime in about the infamous f2 cant wedge debate and the  UP'zs notorious boot ramp issue...... but I'd put some lift under your front foot toe.

Good luck!

[lamby]

I'm sure you are going to get a ton of great advice Cfish. Here are my thoughts.

Hearing how things went for you today sounds familiar to me. I often find that when I get on a new set-up, or new boots, or just go from a softer board to a more aggressive carving board, that things are not right when I get started. It can be a fight to take another run, thinking this feels wrong or even painful. It sounded like it was getting crowded on the slopes, so that can really be something to make me feel like packing it in early for the day. And, you do need to heed pains and rubs and pressure points for sure. Take care or them so that they don't get worse.

Once you are not in pain it will be easier to stick it out, and things will get better. If your first run just feels wrong, consider a minor equipment adjustment and do try to get back up for a follow-up run. I bet it will get better on that second shot. I've often found that if I can keep at it for a few more runs, things start coming around. When I was new to hardboots I often start out the first runs of the season rather discouraged, then the next run was better, then the next was better...pretty soon it all seems to come together.

It can be valuable to take the time to make on hill adjustments, or at least make some considered adjustments at home, before a return to the hill. Continue to adjust binding angles, stance width and setback, boot cuff lean.

I have had great help from my great local bootfitter. I think a professionally molded high quality liner (like Intuition) is worth the price. And I love my custom footbeds (pricey, but your feet is your foundation).

Once you get dialed in with your set up it will all work amazingly well and you will be ripping. Soon enough, you will be riding whatever angle or setup and it won't matter, as your technique will be so solid that it just won't be a big issue.

FWIW I like a stance width of around 20 inches, but sometimes ride an inch wider or narrower. (I'm 5' - 11" and 155 pounds). I ride Deeluxe 700 boots with BTS (blue springs). I found them to be relatively stiff when I made a transition from earlier Deeluxe/Raichle boots (I rode Burton hardboots back in the day). Putting the BTS spring system on the 700s softened them up just perfect for me.

Resort riding - I ride angles of around 45 rear about 55 degrees front. I ride flat, front and rear (used to ride with toe lift and heel rise, and still will, but find flat fine for me too.) On my splitboard I ride flat front and rear binding and 25 degree rear and 30 front on Phantom bindings (would run steeper angles on split, if Phantoms allowed, but I'm finding that I'm adjusting to lower angles well. I did not really notice the lower angles on my last outing (but it took some time). For my split set up, It did take me a lot of fussing around to dial it it. I was not very comfortable with things at first. Adjusting binding stance width and set-back, adjusting boot lean and dialing in springs on boots (Atomic Hawx with Phantom gold springs).

Do expect the need for some messing around, and persistence, then it will all go clickity-click, watch me rip.

[Odd Job]

I have feet that naturally splay; I probably walk like I should ride 40/-40 binding angles; My splay on hardboots is 5 degrees, and 9 on softboots; just force it.

Just saw the boot thing; if your feet are 24.5; 24.5 boots are too big. Also most of the time, stock liners that come with a lot of boots are low-end and a total piece of shit.

You should downsize 1-2 sizes. 3 if you are really wanting to get comfy with your bootfitter.

I have feet that measure 25.7 or so on the larger foot; I wear 24mp shells + liners. I could probably downsize to 23 if I got custom shell work (I have feet wider than 6E in the wrong spots); since the Deeluxe heel pocket is huge.

Good thing you're not on Bombers; I wasted too many years of my life on those bindings.

Edited January 22, 2023 by Odd Job

[barryj]

1 hour ago, Cthulhufish said:

Setup: Donek Voyager, 160cm long, 19cm waist, 9m sidecut, custom ordered to weight; UPZ RC12s with stock springs and tongue, custom insoles; F2 Race Titanium bindings.

Some photos of the board/binders and boots on board would help with this mystery!

[jim_s]

I'd be sure to talk with @SunSurfer too!

[SunSurfer]

Not sure what sources of information you have consulted prioe to setting up your board, so I'm going to link you to a range of resources.

https://alpinesnowboarder.com/tech-articles/
These were written some time ago and have been variably kept up to date.

 

https://beckmannag.com/hardboot-snowboarding

This was also written some time ago. Erik is a highly respected snowboard (and ski) instructor, who also makes custom boot insoles. His writing style sometimes makes what he is trying to express hard for others to understand. His boot setup notes have helped many.

Finally, you almost certainly need a set of lift wedges for both your front and rear bindings. Even with your smallish feet you probably won't need canting after you've setup your bindings as per the first video above. Since you already have a Donek, I've linked to Donek's Parts pages.

https://www.donek.com/product-category/accessories/parts/

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by SunSurfer

[Odd Job]

I totally missed the lift.

Yeah those UPZ's have crazy internal ramp. You will need toe lift. And heel lift for the back foot. F2 and SG bindings are flexible enough that canting won't make a huge difference unless you are way off from center.

I can always tell when I step into a TD3 bindings from a TD3SW; I suddenly feely "locked in" because my weird body geometry needs weird stuff; I'm not willing to spend the time to get exactly dialed in on stiff bindings when everyone and their mother in competition uses flexy bindings; and they work. Beckmann actually goes into this concerning stiff bindings exposing binding setup problems more than flexy bindings; if you read far enough....

Edited January 22, 2023 by Odd Job

[st_lupo]

I've got a similar set of gear: RC10, F2 RaceTi, and board waists around 19.5 to 20.  My MP size is a bit different though (29) so I typically ride pretty high angles (actually probably higher than is strictly necessary, but I guess my technique just evolved around that).  I am definitely _not_ in the clickity-clickity camp.  My setup evolved quickly from taking a baseline survey from other folks who ride similar setups and then making a few small adjustments to give me equal amounts of trouble on both heel and toe side turns.  Everything from that point onwards I attribute to technique. 

As a reference point this is what works for me on my slalom board and slightly bigger freecarving board:

Bindings:

• Front
  • 65deg
  • smallest toe shim (lift, not cant)
• Back
  • 60
  • Big heel shim
  • Smallest inwards cant (this really surprised me to see that there today, doubt I need it but it doesn't seem to be negatively impacting my riding in any significant way)
• 50 - 51 cm stance, centered on the boards natural setback
• This setup gives me good freedom of movement to place my mass center exactly where I want it forward/aftward on the board

Boots:

• Liners: Intuition Power Wraps (the stock liners were causing my feet to literally bleed by the end of the day).
• 0 cant on the cuffs
• For me the following is the single biggest factor to my riding
  • Front boot: lock in ride mode so that the edge of the metal plate is flush with the edge of the boot cuff by the locking lever.  I think you will know what I mean when you see it.
  • Front boot: lock in ride mode so that _one_ click of metal plate is exposed below the edge of the boot cuff (slight extra foreward-lean).
  • It isn't necessarily that those ride-mode settings are exactly right for you, but that boot lean setting (for me) has a bigger impact on my riding than everything else combined (given you have a comfortable stance to begin with), and it wasn't until I stopped adjusting it to compensate for variations in poor toe or heel side carves that I finally had a stable point to develop my technique.
• How you buckle your boot can be important too!  For me I always jam my heel into the pocket by banging the heel of the boot into the ground a couple of times after I have put it on.  Then I tighten the middle buckle first.  The working upwards from the middle buckle, I tighten the two buckles on the cuff.  Finally, working downwards from the middle buckle,  I buckle the two remaining buckles. 
• I replaced the upz top-strap with Booster straps and _love_ them.  Straps go _between_ the liner and the shell.

I'm not familiar with your board but I can imagine that a 9m SCR board handles like a whippet so maybe that is part of the problem?  Things will happen a lot quicker on a small SCR board than compared to something with a 12-13m SCR.  It always takes me a day or two to adjust to my 162 Kessler. 

   

[Cthulhufish]

Thank you for the advice everyone!

I think I'll start with the stance angles and fine tuning my boots (buckling and lean angles). I'll give 55/50 a shot and go from there. I don't think I've gone past 50 up front before.

Speaking of angles, anyone have advice for standing up from heel side with high stance angles? I find I keep putting uncomfortable pressure on my back knee when I do it.

[lamby]

20 minutes ago, Cthulhufish said:

Speaking of angles, anyone have advice for standing up from heel side with high stance angles? I find I keep putting uncomfortable pressure on my back knee when I do it.

It can be quite a strain to stand up heel side on flattish terrain. You may want to roll over to your toe side to stand up where the terrain is not steep. When on steep terrain it is much easier to stand up heel side.

[Odd Job]

Flip over and go on toes. That ligament stretch on heelside sucks when you're getting up. I think I might've gotten used to it after lots of days on snow, but sometimes it does bother me; I either put up with it or flip it over to toeside.

[SunSurfer]

5 hours ago, Cthulhufish said:

I think I'll start with the stance angles and fine tuning my boots (buckling and lean angles). I'll give 55/50 a shot and go from there. I don't think I've gone past 50 up front before.

Before you do anything else check that your boot cuff canting is optimised.

1/ Stance distance: Your stance distance should be in proportion to your leg length,

NOT
i) the reference stance for the board
II) your shoulder width, your tibia length, your shoe size, the length of your erect p***s, or any other body part!

The whole of your leg joins your pelvis (where your centre of mass is roughly) to your feet.

To get you in the right area, I used to use 50cm, when I made the video above 54cm, and I'm now out at 56cm, on an inside leg length of 90 cm, and a top of greater trochanter to floor distance of 95cm. With greater distance has come better balance when absorbing bumps and better edge control.

You will need toe lift under your front boot and heel lift under your rear boot for stance distances in that sort of proportion to feel relatively comfortable.

Assuming your board will accommodate YOUR stance distance, place your bindings so that they are equally away from the centre of the front and rear binding insert packs. This will give the weight distribution the designer of your board intended and is a reasonable starting point.

2/ Binding angles: Now using the method from the first video, work out what binding angles will not result in boot overhang. Assuming your feet point relatively straight forward (not pointing inwards or outwards) the the front bonding being 5 degrees more angled towards the nose of the board than the rear binding is common.

Softbooting with your toes and heels hanging over the edge of the board in duckfoot or even mildly directional stances is very different to alpine snowboard carving.
One fundamental difference is that in a carved turn you DON'T turn the board, THE BOARD TURNS YOU! The video below describes skiing but the principles of edge engagement are fundamentally the same.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by SunSurfer

[st_lupo]

7 hours ago, Cthulhufish said:

Thank you for the advice everyone!

I think I'll start with the stance angles and fine tuning my boots (buckling and lean angles). I'll give 55/50 a shot and go from there. I don't think I've gone past 50 up front before.

Speaking of angles, anyone have advice for standing up from heel side with high stance angles? I find I keep putting uncomfortable pressure on my back knee when I do it.

Yikes, bad memories of when I switched to hardboots.  I found that what works best for me is to always buckle in standing and starting from toe-side.  Or like OJ said flip over from heelside to toeside.

[Jack M]

Apologies for not reading this whole thread, but you have good equipment so this should all be fixable.  My suggestions to get back to a good starting point from which to experiment:

Bindings:

- Remove the cant shims (and save them).  These are little wedges under the toe/heel blocks of the bindings.  They slope left or right.  Tilting your boot left or right is called cant, tilting it forward or back is called lift.

- F2 bindings come with one lift kit.  Install it under the toe block of your front binding.  UPZ boots have the highest heels on the market, which is ok, but even with this lift kit, your foot will still have net forward lean.  But now it will be a reasonable amount that won't burn out your thigh.

- Order another F2 lift kit from Donek if you don't already have one (Canadians, order from YYZCanuck).  While you wait, if you are going to ride again before it arrives, stack two cant shims so their slope cancels, and install them under the heel of your back foot to achieve a little heel lift and no cant.  Once the other lift kit arrives, or if you already have a second one, install it under the heel of your back foot (remove the small stacked shims if installed).

- Set your stance angles such that your heels and toes don't overhang past the edge of the board by more than a little.  You can tolerate a little overhang at first, as you get better you'll have to eliminate it.  Give yourself some but no more than 5 degrees difference between binding angles.

- With toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot, you'll be able to comfortably use a bit wider stance than what you've been using, if desired.  A stance width that is too narrow robs you of balance, stability, and power.

- This is a good default position.  It may work for you as-is or you may find you need to add a little inward or even outward cant on one or both feet.  If you're getting pressure points or hot spots on one side of your boot cuff, try canting the binding towards it.

Boots:

Sounds like you need a higher volume, moldable liner.  Try Intuition Power Wraps.  Mold them with your custom footbeds inside, and toe caps to create space for your toes to wiggle and keep warm.  Instructions here.  Or pay to have it done by a shop that uses a heater that heats the whole liner, not just the inside.

Riding:

Get back to basics with The Norm.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[Cthulhufish]

I finally got the chance to get back on my alpine board today. I went 55/50 angles, heel and toe lifts, and spread my stance a bit wider than usual. I also cranked my boots down pretty hard. Big, obvious improvements. Thank you all for the suggestions!

I did feel like my turn initiations were biased towards toe-side. Kind of like having too little highback lean with strap bindings. Is that likely a matter of the centering of my boots in my bindings? The other thing I noticed was that my rear shin was pressing into the tongue a lot even with as much lean as I could get out of it (3rd hole I think). Is even more heel lift the answer to that? Or could I be forward biasing to compensate for too much setback? Or do I just need to figure out a way to get more lean? Or something.

And yes, I do think I need more liner volume. Cranking down on the buckles resulted in better board control at the expense of unhappy feet. Or smaller shells, which I think would mean I'd need to get Deeluxes?

[SunSurfer]

Do you have a spring system in your boots? Your rear leg needs to move through quite an arc as you move your Centre of Mass COM up and down. A spring system will allow you to preset the boot to forward lean and then move through that arc.

Turn initiation on toe side is pretty easy, You can just kind of lean on your rear foot toes and the board will dig in and whip round.

For heelside try feeling like you are leaning on your front heel while keeping your COM between the bindings.

Alternatively, make sure your body is rotated to face toward the nose of the board, then try turning left by feeling like you are leaning on the left side of both feet. Turn right by leaning on the right side of both feet.

[Jack M]

Glad you felt improvement, thanks for the update.  Your boots are recent, you shouldn't need new ones unless the size is wrong.  Mondopoint sizing is simply the length of your foot in centimeters.  Are you in the right size?

it sounds like you should try narrowing your stance a bit.  Small moves. 

I would also recommend initiating carves with pressure on your front foot.

[Cthulhufish]

Stock spring system in my RC12s. I haven't touched any of the adjustments yet, just tried locking them at different positions.

When I say heel side initiation seems harder, specifically I feel like I have to get my center of mass out past the edge before the board responds, whereas on the toe side it feels like the board starts moving as soon as I do. I certainly can't rule out technique, but come to think of it, I think I was riding with my shins pressing against my boots when "neutral". That seems like it could bias me towards toe side.

My MP size puts me at the center of the range for the shell on UPZ's size chart. I'll consult a boot fitter on that one I guess.

[SunSurfer]

Current thread on forward lean and spring adjustment may help you.

[SunSurfer]

2 hours ago, Cthulhufish said:

 

When I say heel side initiation seems harder, specifically I feel like I have to get my center of mass out past the edge before the board responds, whereas on the toe side it feels like the board starts moving as soon as I do. I certainly can't rule out technique, but come to think of it, I think I was riding with my shins pressing against my boots when "neutral". That seems like it could bias me towards toe side.

Principle: To stay balanced at any time the force vector of gravity, and any other accelerative force, applied to your COM must be over your base of support.

When we carve our base of support is the effective edge plus however many centimetres of base are pushing against the sidewall of the groove the board is carving in the snow.

That is why I suggested feeling like you are pressuring, or tilting the board with the soles of your feet. That frees up your COM to retain balance over your base of support. With both feet tilting the board torsion or twisting of the board is minimised, and the edge angle is consistent enough along the groove for the board to track well.