Half a Run

[StrangeFuture808]

I'm going to say something I know wont sit well with a lot of people but most of the best riders I see carving rotate on their heelside driving with their hips and then counter rotate on their toeside (to a varying degree) by putting their hand down further forward on the snow than their lead shoulder. The trickle down effect of that hand down is going to fairly mild at the hips but the motion of driving your rear knee down towards the snow also contributes to the communication to your board that you are counter rotating. I've played around with this a fair amount on the mountain in the last few weeks and found that mild counter-rotation in your toeside carves like in this main image of this video has great effects. If you watch videos of Japanese "mustard" riders you'll see they initiate the toeside turn with their front arm almost behind their back and sweep it forward as the turn progresses bringing them from a heavily counter rotated initiation to a more rotated position at the end of that toeside carve, then they do the same sweep on their heelside with their back arm from back to front. The super aggressive ones will make this sweep almost look like a punch.
It's unfortunate that carving on that level is an afterthought to the governing bodies of instruction/coaching in North America so we're left guessing, debating and playing around finding out what works best for us. At least they got something right, "there are no wrongs in snowboarding just consequences".... aka #^(K around and find out. 

5 hours ago, nextcarve said:

 

 

 

[nextcarve]

31 minutes ago, StrangeFuture808 said:

I'm going to say something I know wont sit well with a lot of people but most of the best riders I see carving rotate on their heelside driving with their hips and then counter rotate on their toeside (to a varying degree) by putting their hand down further forward on the snow than their lead shoulder. The trickle down effect of that hand down is going to fairly mild at the hips but the motion of driving your rear knee down towards the snow also contributes to the communication to your board that you are counter rotating. I've played around with this a fair amount on the mountain in the last few weeks and found that mild counter-rotation in your toeside carves like in this main image of this video has great effects. If you watch videos of Japanese "mustard" riders you'll see they initiate the toeside turn with their front arm almost behind their back and sweep it forward as the turn progresses bringing them from a heavily counter rotated initiation to a more rotated position at the end of that toeside carve, then they do the same sweep on their heelside with their back arm from back to front. The super aggressive ones will make this sweep almost look like a punch.
It's unfortunate that carving on that level is an afterthought to the governing bodies of instruction/coaching in North America so we're left guessing, debating and playing around finding out what works best for us. At least they got something right, "there are no wrongs in snowboarding just consequences".... aka #^(K around and find out. 

 

Full ack, first counter, then rotation.

[pow4ever]

28 minutes ago, StrangeFuture808 said:

I'm going to say something I know wont sit well with a lot of people but most of the best rider

Preach friend! "If it can be destroyed by the truth, it deserves to be destroyed by the truth," 

my head hurt now.... don't think i know how to ride a snowboard anymore.   too many things to think about in too short amount of time.  i Need to distill it down to few/couple "reference point".  All these optimization are #Firstworld problem for the elite rider.  

Time for me to get away from apline-keyboarding  to the real thing  

[Rob Stevens]

43 minutes ago, StrangeFuture808 said:

I'm going to say something I know wont sit well with a lot of people but most of the best riders I see carving rotate on their heelside driving with their hips and then counter rotate on their toeside (to a varying degree) by putting their hand down further forward on the snow than their lead shoulder.

** I think it's important to note that the kind of carving you and @crackaddict are doing start in alignment with the median of your stance, or back foot if you run a fair amount of splay. In watching James, you can see him sometimes over rotate the start of the turn, then come back into alignment. When he nails it, there is no over rotation... he starts in alignment to his stance, then cranks a bit of rotation before the switch. This naturally leads to a bit of counter-rotation to the toe turn. The counter-rotation on the toes initially helps me feel like I'm "projecting" into the new turn with less resistance, as I'm "leaving that arm / weight behind" as the rest of me leaps forward. The Asian carvers have taken this to another level by lengthening that motion and holding it for longer. I try to avoid the latter Asian style of over-emphasis on this arm motion as it has negative effects on "slarving" freeride turns on steep terrain. Just the same, it feels great to the point I'm allowing myself to employ it in carves. Note that I'm not disagreeing with you, but just clarifying when I think rotation starts and where it progresses from.

The trickle down effect of that hand down is going to fairly mild at the hips but the motion of driving your rear knee down towards the snow also contributes to the communication to your board that you are counter rotating. I've played around with this a fair amount on the mountain in the last few weeks and found that mild counter-rotation in your toeside carves like in this main image of this video has great effects. If you watch videos of Japanese "mustard" riders you'll see they initiate the toeside turn with their front arm almost behind their back and sweep it forward as the turn progresses bringing them from a heavily counter rotated initiation to a more rotated position at the end of that toeside carve, then they do the same sweep on their heelside with their back arm from back to front. The super aggressive ones will make this sweep almost look like a punch.

** I think this is very relative to binding angles. For me and in the clip Jack posted of me I run +28 / -3 for stance. In that position, I constantly remind myself that if I allow too much countering too late in the turn, I'm only supported by the back half of my edge. By rotating back into alignment as I leave the fall line, I engage the entire edge. Again, if angles are higher in both feet, this return to neutral will still appear (and possibly be) more countered.

It's unfortunate that carving on that level is an afterthought to the governing bodies of instruction/coaching in North America so we're left guessing, debating and playing around finding out what works best for us. At least they got something right, "there are no wrongs in snowboarding just consequences".... aka #^(K around and find out. 

** CASI needs to pay me a royalty on "There's no right or wrong in snowbarding... only consequences".

** @Xargo got it bang on when he said that what we're talking about really needs to be viewed throught the prism of binding angles as opposed to the material boots are made from. The mechanics of a turn appear and are very different as you move from dead equal duck to something Squall like.

 

Forgive me... Like my video clip which I couldn't upload (thanks to jack for doing it and for tolerating the portrait positioning, as opposed to the preferred landscape orientation), my lack of knowledge probably sees my replies embedded in your comments @StrangeFuture808

 

 

My comments embedded in yours are denoted by a "**".

Edited January 20, 2023 by Rob Stevens

[Rob Stevens]

16 hours ago, crackaddict said:

Okay okay... 

I had fixed the channel but I had to go through each video too tonight.  No one watches my crap, that channel is just to share video with you boys.  Maybe something quality coming soon though...

I'm watching your "crap" very closely. You and @StrangeFuture808are f'in killing it.

[StrangeFuture808]

 

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

** I think this is very relative to binding angles. For me and in the clip Jack posted of me I run +28 / -3 for stance. In that position, I constantly remind myself that if I allow too much countering too late in the turn, I'm only supported by the back half of my edge. By rotating back into alignment as I leave the fall line, I engage the entire edge. Again, if angles are higher in both feet, this return to neutral will still appear (and possibly be) more countered.

 

Agreed I ride 2 boards +27+12 (this is my first year riding ++) and 2 boards +27-9 and that counter rotated toeside feels way more dramatic when riding duck and ++ makes rotation on my heelside feel much more efficient. I'll never go full ++ but its hard not to see it as the most efficient stance for carving.
Your current turn is usually only as good as your last turn and your ability to return to a neutral stance between carves is kinda your only defence against your own consequences. 

Edited January 20, 2023 by StrangeFuture808

[Neil Gendzwill]

27 and 12 is what I am going with as well.  I have nothing scientific to back that up, just picked something mid forward and decided to try to make that work.

[StrangeFuture808]

21 hours ago, Jack M said:

Rob's clip:

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-2T7WLjR/0/a68765fc/1280/i-2T7WLjR-1280.mp4

The poke/reach at the end of that toeside looks great and I love how it feels when that results in a burst of speed across the fall line! Nice turns! Totally what I was talking about.

[Neil Gendzwill]

24 minutes ago, StrangeFuture808 said:

The poke/reach at the end of that toeside looks great and I love how it feels when that results in a burst of speed across the fall line! Nice turns! Totally what I was talking about.

All that CASI cred ought to be worth something, eh?

[Rob Stevens]

3 hours ago, StrangeFuture808 said:

 

 

Agreed I ride 2 boards +27+12 (this is my first year riding ++) and 2 boards +27-9 and that counter rotated toeside feels way more dramatic when riding duck and ++ makes rotation on my heelside feel much more efficient. I'll never go full ++ but its hard not to see it as the most efficient stance for carving.

** If you don't mind being initially terrified, you should try a full-blown alpine setup because you're right... it is the best for getting the most out of carving. 

Your current turn is usually only as good as your last turn and your ability to return to a neutral stance between carves is kinda your only defence against your own consequences. 

** Too right. The best riders seem to be ones that can make neutral happen no matter what terrain they're in. If you can start a turn that will end well on the steep and rugged, you're in good shape. Of course, the best riders can jump well too, but that's a different sport altogether. My friend Brett says that his best tricks are "his left turn, followed by the right one".

I did it again.

 

[crackaddict]

@nextcarve I'm somewhat inclined to apologize for the tone of that "Eurocarving" post but at the same time I don't want to be reinforcing Canadian stereotypes so I'll just say that it doesn't read quite as funny and friendly as it first seemed, and that I do sometimes get carried away with the trolling when someone throws down a gauntlet in front of me...

In truth your videos are much better than the stuff I used to look at ten years ago and I admire the skill portrayed.  I admit, I can't do EC style turns very well though Jordan (@StrangeFuture808) has been encouraging me to expand my skillset this season.  He's also challenged me to try to get my butt to touch the snow before my hand on heelside, an extreme balance challenge.

Now, without putting words in anyone's mouth, @StrangeFuture808 has expressed that he finds the EC style cheating a bit because his body weight on the snow helps his board track smoother.  If anyone wants to argue this claim, take it up with Jordan, I wouldn't know about that.

I also cheat; my softboot setup is not as soft as might seem.  See attached video link for details.

 

 

[crackaddict]

6 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

  @crackaddict, what kind of angles are you rocking these days?

12/27 is my preferred softboot carving stance.  At 9 degrees in the back foot I start to chatter a bit on heelside.  I plan to try duck carving again soon, on @StrangeFuture808's urging.  Sometimes I steepen it up when I'm booting out on narrower or stiffer boards, up to 21/36.  12/27 is still somewhat comfortable for all mountain riding and steep enough for high performance carving (for my body and my style).

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 hour ago, crackaddict said:

12/27 is my preferred softboot carving stance.

12/27 club ! To be honest, I did not get my softboot rig for carving, in fact I explicitly avoided a dedicated carving setup.  If I want to dig some trenches I will get my alpine gear.  It works really well for what I want it to do.

[StrangeFuture808]

5 hours ago, crackaddict said:

Now, without putting words in anyone's mouth, @StrangeFuture808 has expressed that he finds the EC style cheating a bit because his body weight on the snow helps his board track smoother.  If anyone wants to argue this claim, take it up with Jordan, I wouldn't know about that.

 

Not really what I said or meant, I was speaking for myself and how I feel looking back critically on videos of my own riding from last season. I destroyed a couple of pairs of snow pants shredding the pocket because I got comfortable with my ass sliding on the ground on my heelside carves and this winter I wanted to use my leg strength more. I solved the pant shredding problem by having a seamstress sew vinyl on the lead hip/butt of my pants but even that was getting a bit chewed up. I admit riding like that with the butt slide felt smooth and the board tracked straight without chatter but I definitely felt like I was sitting my way through turns.

A properly executed layed out EC heelside is nothing like what I was doing and I didn't associate what I said with that style. I wasn't laying it out on my heelside I was doing a angulated fairly standard carve with only my hand ass and edge on snow and when I look back at my own footage like this carving segment at the beginning of this video I feel like I was cheating by having my ass on the snow for too long.

 

Good news, January is almost over and I haven't even scuffed any outerwear yet this season 
 

Edited January 21, 2023 by StrangeFuture808

[StrangeFuture808]

5 hours ago, crackaddict said:

Jordan (@StrangeFuture808) has been encouraging me to expand my skillset this season.  He's also challenged me to try to get my butt to touch the snow before my hand on heelside, an extreme balance challenge.

 

 

I also tried to get you to do a toeside carve touching nothing to the snow but your edge and helmet. You should know by now I cant be taken seriously out there

[Odd Job]

Fwiw. I've heard the plus (counter-rotate) being mentioned as the thing to do by some people on toeside.

And also, minus on heelside (also counter-rotating).

(this is with high stance angles on alpine setups, by the way).

I've even heard the counter-rotate on toeside referred to as "punch the midget".

 

Fwiw. If your only goal is to just be able to freecarve a pitch. Anything works. Even on a GS board with a plate. Bend your knees too much, drag that ass on the snow, counter-rotate like a mother ****er and beat your chest heelside; it works (not optimal).

[Xargo]

This is such an inspiring thread! I've been experimenting with different setups lately in order to figure out the specifications of a custom board. I like mellow angles a lot more than typical alpine angles. I think my dream setup would have around -15/+15 duck angles. However, the lack of carveable production boards, I've been forced to increase the angles all the way up to -21/+21. My legs can't handle more than that. I still bootout with those angles with a 275mm waist board.

But now for the next experiment. 275mm ww Ride Timeless 167 with gecko style plates. I'll try to carve that Kelo slope with this setup and hoping the plates will lift me up enough not to boot out (there is some overhang):

Also planning to test the Hawx Ultras with duck angles at some point. I already tried -20/+20 angles with Deeluxe T700 boots some two years ago (with that Timeless board). Even that worked surprisingly well. I do believe there's potential to carve steeps with a duck setup but the equipment needs to be just right.

[nextcarve]

@crackaddictNo need to apologize. Sometimes it's good to play the devils advocate
It was the start for an inspiring conversation, I think.

And like I already posted early in this thread - your riding is really great
I also like to watch your videos, really smooth carving.

Nice "Softboot" setup you got there though
Reminds me on Hardboots

Edited January 21, 2023 by nextcarve

[StrangeFuture808]

Had been wanting to record this drill for a while and this talk about rotation and hips had me thinking about what skills would open you up to more freedom to be creative in your style. Obviously pitch, speed and corridor are going to effect how liberal you can be with self expression but if from your knees down you are doing the right things and you're stacked and mobile over and across your board I think you should be able to get away with a lot of style things like counter rotating on the toeside without enormous consequences.
Anyways, this is a little exercise I love to do from time to time to keep my lower body steering on point.
If anyone gets a chance to try it let me know how it goes for you.

 

 

 

 

[Xargo]

Yeah that lower body steering drill is very useful. However, I struggle to do that with positive angles. With duck stance I do it all the time. Speaking of which, I did the duck stance steep riding video I mentioned about above:

At first I had trouble with heelside but pretty quickly remembered how it works. I've been riding almost exclusively alpine setups for the last two seasons or such. Toe overhang was too limiting though. Need a wider board (that was expected).

[crackaddict]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:54 PM, StrangeFuture808 said:

I also tried to get you to do a toeside carve touching nothing to the snow but your edge and helmet. You should know by now I cant be taken seriously out there

Yeah...  Why did we do that?

Oh I remember, it was to impress a girl!  This girl:

[Xargo]

Finally got an opportunity to try wide enough board that I didn't have to worry about boot outs with a -18/+18 duck stance. The board was Elevated Surf Craft Salmon and here's some footage:

I rode the board for three runs and now I'm even more convinced that around 30cm waist board is what I want. Salmon was 31.1cm waist and due to a tight sidecut, some 33cm under the bindings. I don't need that much width but it didn't feel too wide either. I do want a much longer radius sidecut though and prolly a bit more effective edge (this had 112cm). Stock Salomon Malamute boots and stock Salomon Quantum bindings.

Saw some new footage of your riding from Ryan's channel @crackaddict, looking good! Do you have more?

[kverho]

Nice board you got there Xargo!