Catek-burton Hybrid :classified Photo

[eastcoasticerider]

YOU SEEN IT FIRST HERE!!!!The Burton/Catek Freeride Hybrid neww design for 2005-2006 season!!!! :D

[lonerider]

Originally posted by eastcoasticerider

YOU SEEN IT FIRST HERE!!!!The Burton/Catek Freeride Hybrid neww design for 2005-2006 season!!!! :D

I'm confused, is this suppose to be a joke, or something you are proposing to do with your own pair of Cateks?

A few tips on photoshopping. First use the same resolution as the 3-strap highback, Catek base, and Burton Toestrap are all obviously different resolutions (and hence from different images). Lighting is also another dead giveaway (difficult to control, especially with reflective surface). Mechanically, you can see the far hingepoint of the highback and it isn't in the right location, meaning perspective-wise the highback isn't lined up with the metal-heelcup of the Catek base. You can also see it based on how you can see the differences in perspective based on the orientation of the straps. Perhaps I'm over-thinking this and you never intended this photo to be a realistic forgery.

[CarvCanada]

Why aren't there more 3strap bindings!? Maybe the top strap could be elastic at a point?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

You are on the right track. Now make it easier to get into and you got something. Power without being totally rigid. As many , I seek the ideal soft/hard boot set up for the pow days. Still love the soft boot feel on the big pow days. However can not do without the power and convenience that the hardboot step-ins provide. Seek and you shall find. Just a matter of time. The old "Torque" is stll IMO one of the best , most under appreciated bindings of all time. The Catek is definitely on my wish list and I will definitely be looking at how to add the 3rd strap without hosing up Jeff's work. Good post. Bryan

[lonerider]

Originally posted by www.oldsnowboards.com

You are on the right track. Now make it easier to get into and you got something. Power without being totally rigid. As many , I seek the ideal soft/hard boot set up for the pow days. Still love the soft boot feel on the big pow days. However can not do without the power and convenience that the hardboot step-ins provide. Seek and you shall find. Just a matter of time. The old "Torque" is stll IMO one of the best , most under appreciated bindings of all time. The Catek is definitely on my wish list and I will definitely be looking at how to add the 3rd strap without hosing up Jeff's work. Good post. Bryan

From my limited understanding, three strap bindings become unpopular over a decade ago, as they were less convenient (had to connect/disconnect a third strap) and at the time provided limited benefits (it the highback isn't locked like the Burtons, or is too soft, you get very little additional power unless you were riding very softboots).

I'm still a little bit skeptical that three-strap systems are superior in general, but agree they must have a slight edge on power. Personally, I think all this power and responsiveness is slightly overrated personally, especially for powder riding. I wouldn't use Cateks for powder riding... let alone a modified 3-strap version. I might consider it for hard freecarving. Instead of a true third strap, why not just rivet an elastic boosterstrap to the top of the highback, I think that would be sufficient for what most people are thinking of.

Actually, that I would much rather have is a Hybrid Catek Freeride with K2 Cinch step-in technology.

[Jack M]

Lonerider, have you ever used 3 strap bindings? I'll never forget the first day I went from 2 straps to 3 straps - I thought I was going to have to learn how to snowboard all over again. The toeside response and lateral support is 10 times that of any regular 2 strap binding. My Burton Flex bindings made me think that I would never need hardboots. I was actually "anti-hardboot" at one point. Then guess what happened - I finally tried hardboots, and I was like a dog being let off the leash at the beach. I instantly took off in the hardboots because I was so used to the feeling of having my lower leg actually controlling the board in 3-strap bindings. I'm actually designing (in the back of my mind anyway) a 3rd strap retro-fit kit for any 2-strap highback binding that we can market as a cheap way to try carving. 3-strap bindings are the perfect way to learn more precise edge control.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

Lonerider, have you ever used 3 strap bindings? I'll never forget the first day I went from 2 straps to 3 straps - I thought I was going to have to learn how to snowboard all over again. The toeside response and lateral support is 10 times that of any regular 2 strap binding. My Burton Flex bindings made me think that I would never need hardboots. I was actually "anti-hardboot" at one point. Then guess what happened - I finally tried hardboots, and I was like a dog being let off the leash at the beach. I instantly took off in the hardboots because I was so used to the feeling of having my lower leg actually controlling the board in 3-strap bindings. I'm actually designing (in the back of my mind anyway) a 3rd strap retro-fit kit for any 2-strap highback binding that we can market as a cheap way to try carving. 3-strap bindings are the perfect way to learn more precise edge control.

Wait, did you mean you thought you have to relearn how to ride when going from two-straps to three-straps (and had to deal with more power), or the other away around (and had to deal with the loss of power)?

My memory is fuzzy, but I do recall borrowing an old board with 3-strap bindings from someone once. The bindings weren't special in any way to me (I might not have been good enough to notice). This is why I suggested that at the time, the plastic in bindings were so flexy that having a third strap might not have helped much (I recall my friend having "lowbacks" that you could interchange with the highbacks, but he thought the "lowbacks" were useless old-school stuff).

I later ended up buying a pair of Clicker stepins (this was in '95 I think). I know that I had ridden three strap bindings before going to "no strap bindings" because I definitely recall looking at a magazine showing a pair of "Burton Freestyles" and noticing in surprise that it only have TWO straps and being freaked out by it... but then thinking back.. I realized a lot of my friends had 2-strap bindings and I was just remembering my personal experience with 3-strap bindings.

My friends and I were very park-oriented and pretty much hit the park when the snow wasn't very good (which was not uncommon in New England). Nevertheless, we were never "anti-hardboot." We actually all wanted to try them out (we saw a few guys at Killington) and vowed one day to rent the equipiment and try it out , which never happened. Admittedly we didn't try very hard... but the internet didn't really exist back then and we weren't about to call every store in the phonebook looking for it.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by lonerider

Wait, did you mean you thought you have to relearn how to ride when going from two-straps to three-straps (and had to deal with more power)?

Yes.

My first board (Elite 150) had 2-strap Burton "Darth Vader" bindings. When I got my second board (Safari 165) it came with the same bindings but with 3 straps each. At first I took the 3rd straps off because I figured I was used to 2 straps. After a while I got wise and figured 3 straps would give me more control and might help prevent the dreaded BBB (Burton Binding Blister). When I put the 3rd straps back on it was a night and day difference. I realized what a sucky snowboarder I had been, and that it was time to get serious.

3 straps definitely paved the way to hardboots for me. It was such an easy transition to go from 3's to HB's. Nowadays we hear from newbie after newbie coming here from softboots and often they're like a fish out of water, back to square one almost. It should be the other way around. Going to hardboots should be a step forward, not a step back.

[eastcoasticerider]

My first time was with Torque Bindings and a Burton Amp 6 ...95 vintage .Thats when it all came together.......;)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

Yes.

My first board (Elite 150) had 2-strap Burton "Darth Vader" bindings. When I got my second board (Safari 165) it came with the same bindings but with 3 straps each. At first I took the 3rd straps off because I figured I was used to 2 straps. After a while I got wise and figured 3 straps would give me more control and might help prevent the dreaded BBB (Burton Binding Blister). When I put the 3rd straps back on it was a night and day difference. I realized what a sucky snowboarder I had been, and that it was time to get serious.

3 straps definitely paved the way to hardboots for me. It was such an easy transition to go from 3's to HB's. Nowadays we hear from newbie after newbie coming here from softboots and often they're like a fish out of water, back to square one almost. It should be the other way around. Going to hardboots should be a step forward, not a step back.

Interesting. I have the unique experience in that I learned how to snowboard in stiff Clicker step-in boots with no straps. Maybe that's why I didn't have too much trouble moving to hardboots - I remember people looking at my boots and dismissing them as being no better than ski boots because they were so stiff. I did notice I could never tweak grabs as easily as my friends, but I found them to be very comfortable (albeit slightly harder to walk in) despite what people to me and so I stuck with them until 2001, when I gave straps a try. I may someday return to riding step-ins once I've sampled all the softboot and strap bindings.... but who knows.

I feel like a most people in general are not very good riders, I mean sure they can skid down a steep slope, but they were always manhandling the board instead of carving it... so it comes as no surprise that they would have trouble when switching to alpine, where each mistake tends to be amplified. In contrast, people who knew how to carve on softboots found carving on alpine boards very natural, if a bit "rough" on the edges. For me while riding an alpine board has definitely made me a better rider in softboots, I could already carve trenches in the snow and go from edge to edge down the mountain without skidding before trying out hardboots. Just my opinion though.

If someone ever does come out with a 3-strap binding and had convenient demos (I don't mind paying a demo fee, I do mind driving to a random mountain to get to the demo) I would try it out. However, I sold my Catek Freerides as I found them overkill in terms of edging power and a little harsh due to lack of shock absorbance. I like my Nidecker 800 Pros far better (still very stiff and responsive, but lighter and noticeable less jarring).

[Jack M]

Lonerider, yes I agree you had a rare experience starting with a responsive setup like clickers - it's pretty similar to mine in that I spent a lot of time in 3 straps before hardboots, thus our transitions to hardboots were natural.

Burton's original highback binding was one piece. It had no hinge, and the highback cupped the back of your leg - wrapping nearly half way around it. It was a big hunk of black plastic, hence the Darth Vader nickname.

Later, the Burton "Flex" binding had a hinge, but also a locking mechanism with a pseudo-adjustable rubber forward flex piston doohickey. The idea was that you could ride with the highback locked or unlocked for more versatility. The Flex highback also cupped the leg. Both the original and the Flex offered way more forward and lateral support than any 2 strap binding ever has. The Flex became the Torque, but by that time I was in hardboots. I never rode the Torque, but I believe they were even stiffer and provided more lateral support than the Flex.

Burton carried a 3 strap binding as late as 1998, iirc. By then it had morphed into a regular freestyle type binding chassis with a 3rd strap thrown on as well as their now defunct "one-strap". The one-strap was apparantly Burton's response to Flow - it was basically the toe and ankle straps married together into one funky looking slab.

If someone were to build the Torque today, they'd probably be perceived (and dismissed) as hardboot hybrids. Which is why you'll probably never see them again. A pity, but that's the snowboard market. I personally see a market for an add-on 3rd strap for current 2 strap bindings. This would allow people to see what it feels like to actually tip the board up on toeside with their shins, and become acquainted with the alien concept of binding <i>response</i>.

I think this is the missing link between hardboot and softboot riding. It would surely be a cheaper, less risky, and less daunting way for a softbooter to see if they might like hardboots.

PS - hey, whaddya know, here's some Torques on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21248&item=7152718234&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[trikerdad]

Jack, having learned with a pair of Flex bindings, then teaching my son how to ride in a pair, I learned early on how easy it was to carve a board. Not being into jibonking I thought 2 strap bindings sucked, and my son really struggled when he later tried a pair. I think it takes a lot more skill and strength to ride in 2 strap bindings and is easier to learn in something like the Flex or Torque. IMO, if rental shops offered 3 strap bindings for beginners, the frustration level of learning to ride would be a lot less. The problem I see with adding 3rd straps to a pair of two strappers is, you have to be able to lock the back and, though I haven't been paying a lot of attention to soft boot bindings, I don't think most of them have a lock.

[alpinegirl]

used to be that most burton bindings FLAD's lock, holding the highback upright. this is a problem when an area's chair dips below it's minimum height clearance when loading and consequently breaks the binding (highback and/or baseplate). but hey, what was that, common sense is a good thing?

burton may be phasing the locking mechanism out

other company's also offer locking mechanisms on their highbacks, but i can't recall them by name.

[trikerdad]

Back to the original post, I'll take a pair and while I'm waiting for them I'll see if I can't find my old Sorell's. They might look pretty funcky on my new 181 WCR but wouldn't it be nice wear soft boots again!

[BlueB]

I had started on plate bindings and ski boots (loaners), and was very unhappy when various shops' staff convinced me that alpine is dead, and bought soft gear as my first, own setup. I looked for the stiff boots and by the fluke I bought used Burton Drivers - so I was more or less ok carving with that. I knew that more stiffness would allow better performance, so I wanted to improvise 3rd strap on my bindings. Bought some spare straps already, but then I found my first plates (trough this forum) and never looked back.

I still might look into constructing these 3 straps, one day... They are the missing link. I suppose all freeriders would be better off with them.

Boris

[lonerider]

Originally posted by BlueB

I had started on plate bindings and ski boots (loaners), and was very unhappy when various shops' staff convinced me that alpine is dead, and bought soft gear as my first, own setup. I looked for the stiff boots and by the fluke I bought used Burton Drivers - so I was more or less ok carving with that. I knew that more stiffness would allow better performance, so I wanted to improvise 3rd strap on my bindings. Bought some spare straps already, but then I found my first plates (trough this forum) and never looked back.

I still might look into constructing these 3 straps, one day... They are the missing link. I suppose all freeriders would be better off with them.

Boris

To be fair, I don't think the shops were entirely wrong when they described alpine as defacto "dead" a couple of years ago from their own point of view.... if companies aren't making the alpine boards for them to sell, why should they think otherwise?

Ah... the wonders of the Internet. Previously, a market that was composed of only 6000 or so people (someone who know more about these things can correct me, but I think I'm within one order of magnitude) or about 0.1% of the total snowboarding population would be considered a niche not worth getting into. But not only do sites like BOL and Catek allow for carvers all across the US to get their desired gear, but also help increase awareness and enthusiasm for the sport. We should be thankful.

Here are the numbers I found when trying to calculate the percentage of hardbooters to softbooters.

Skiiers

2002-03 - 6.8 million Median Age: 31.65

2001-02 - 7.4 million Median Age: 29.7

2000-01 - 7.7 million Median Age: 27.7

1999-00 - 7.4 million Median Age: 30.1

1998-99 - 7.4 million Median Age: 28.2

---

1991-92 - 10.8 million Median Age: 25.5

Snowboarders

2002-03 - 6.3 million Median Age: 19.5

2001-02 - 5.6 million Median Age: 22.8

2000-01 - 5.3 million Median Age: 17.3

1999-00 - 4.3 million Median Age: 15.7

1998-99 - 3.6 million Median Age: 16.9

---

1991-92 - 1.6 million Median Age: 16.2

Sources: National Ski Areas Association and the National Ski and Snowboarders Retailers Association.

Originally posted by trikerdad

Not being into jibonking I thought 2 strap bindings sucked, and my son really struggled when he later tried a pair. I think it takes a lot more skill and strength to ride in 2 strap bindings and is easier to learn in something like the Flex or Torque. IMO, if rental shops offered 3 strap bindings for beginners, the frustration level of learning to ride would be a lot less.

When I started playing ice hockey as a kid, I used to tie my skates ridiculously tight, and even used a skate key to tighten them even more. When I played in college I noticed that whenever the varsity players were around... they would have their laces super *loose* because they had just strong ankles and they said tying their upper laces looser gave them "superior range of motion" (which to me translated to "immediate sprained ankle"). I suppose using hardbooters could lead to some atrophying of the ankle muscles if no exercise/strengthing if done to compensate during the winter months.

Rental shops can't offer 3-strap bindings if companies don't make them. Also on a purely commerical level, 3-strap bindings are less convenient because that is one *more* part that can break and must be maintained.

[stevo]

When I want to give my legs a break these and my Incline or NS T5 make a sick combo:))

[trikerdad]

I'm beginning to think they are for real, but at what cost. Looks like about $400 to me, considering what everything else cost these days.

[Jack M]

Umm, yeah, pretty much exactly what I had in mind. Except I'd extend that hook down to the heel cup on the binding base. Is this a home-job or can you buy this as a kit?

More details, man! Thanks!

[stevo]

homemade job that's for sure...I still have some work to do for them to be more presentable....they perform extremely well though. The 3rd strap support was taken from my old Burton Custom 3-strap bindings...I think the last year they made them. The mod was very easy to do.

right on trikerdad....but they are half the price of a really nice board, twice the response of most soft bindings, will last forever, and they are super comfy:)

[RCrobar]

Hi Stevo

The Catek Freerides and your modification look very good together! Bet your Madd BX/Catek freeride combo is a lot of fun!

The picture of your 3 strap soft bindings seems like it would be very similar to a soft hardboot/soft plate combo.

Also, the hardboot walk/powder mode would appear to be like a soft binding where you can choose between two are three straps.

Could you comment on the differences in feel and ride between your three strap Cateks and a hardboot set up that is on the softer side?

What advantages do you feel the three strap set up has over a soft hard set up?

I live in an area where I am unable to demo equipment, so your comments are appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Rob

[skatha]

Great thread........

I just finished my third season and still skid for the most part, although I hope my longboard I bought for summer use helps me focus on the carve.

I heartily second the implication that better control during those initial rides would really flatten out the snowboarding learning curve for most people-I mean, for comparison-how well would most skiiers do if they had to learn with soft shoes?

I had thought I'd get another season or two with a soft setup-I seem to be constantly tweaking it-but now I wonder if I'd do better stopping off at Silverthorne next year and getting a hard setup. I find that most of my control seems to come from my rear foot and that's the smaller and narrower and thus "most likely to slip in a shoe" foot

I got some ski boots for my snowblades I got this year and that set-up is a rock solid extension of my feet. I was able to use them-without lessons-after about 15 minutes of sidestepping up the bunny slope and working on pizza stops and turns(I can ice skate already, so that probably helped). Of course, the lift was another matter-I'm too used to siding off sideways!!!

[Jack M]

Did you bolt the 3rd strap to the highback? I would think that with the hook going down to the binding base, you wouldn't have to bolt the strap to the highback. In that case, it would make a nice, easy retro-fit kit that could be mounted non-destructively.

[CarvCanada]

is the hook on the highback simply to prevent it from constantly wanting to drop down while putting your boot in to strap in?

[stevo]

I would say the soft hardboot and 3-strap are quite similar. I think you would definitely get better lateral support from the soft/hardboots at higher angles above say 45*...I would like to change out the highback to one that is a bit stiffer torsionally because I'm so friggin heavy:). One advantage of using the 3-strap is being able to use the softest most comfortable boots available because you don't have to rely on the boot for support at all...the top strap takes care of that. This helps on long off piste hikes or just sanding on concrete in a long gondola line...less likely to do slippery pirouettes in the bar after too:) I think you can also "feel" a softer board better in the pow with that combination....you don't need the top strap for powder but I like the added "umph" there too. RC, I hope this helps you at least a little bit because I'm a veteran freeride softbooter but a beginner hardbooter...I've seen your movies, you rock!

I have been spending most of my time (99%) in hardboots though...love it:)