Catek-burton Hybrid :classified Photo

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Excellent Steve!!

You've definitely scored here!

To some that still are not believers. It is about the toe side power! The heel side is typically fine due the leverage of most any high backs on the base plate. Big guys on big boards really value the toe side power in powder or carving. Well done.

I made a similar set up on a Burton SI that had the flad. Saves the lower two straps. However, still suffers on overall fit.

Great job!! I bet that rides "Tight" but still "Flows"

Thanks, Bryan

[stevo]

yes the third strap bolts directly to the highback...you have a good idea there Jack:)

The hook I had laser cut here at work then bent to hook around the silver (photo) heelcup to lock the highback down against the forward lean adjuster (max leverage). The quick release ratchet allows the highback to fold down easily/quickly for the chair ride.

[stevo]

Thank you Bryan...I "visit" you all the time:)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Thanks Steve. I appreciate the comment. It makes me want to work harder on the site. Meeting people on the road this last winter that had been to the site really surprised me. Time to "Step it up" on the content. I have so much just waiting to be posted. Thousands of photos , lots of obscure snowboard historical details to be written about. It all has to wait for my html skills to catch up. Thanks again.

A nice photo gallery of past 3 strap bindings would be good?

The old Kemper (sucked) and lesser known versions might get all these brilliant minds going! Thanks!

[Jack M]

The image of 3-strap Catek Freerides is giving me visions of a custom 24cm wide Axis....

[stevo]

Jack I have been thinking the same thing! I tried out the Madd BX and loved it so much I bought two:) Then I started thinking 24cm Axis...24 cm Coiler AM with superboard....

[lonerider]

Stevo, those are very cool 3-strap mod... if you were ever able to create a conversion kit for Catek or even a generic kit I would definitely give it a try.

Originally posted by skatha

Great thread........

I just finished my third season and still skid for the most part, although I hope my longboard I bought for summer use helps me focus on the carve.

I heartily second the implication that better control during those initial rides would really flatten out the snowboarding learning curve for most people-I mean, for comparison-how well would most skiiers do if they had to learn with soft shoes?

I had thought I'd get another season or two with a soft setup-I seem to be constantly tweaking it-but now I wonder if I'd do better stopping off at Silverthorne next year and getting a hard setup. I find that most of my control seems to come from my rear foot and that's the smaller and narrower and thus "most likely to slip in a shoe" foot

Skatha, what's you longboard setup? I have a Loaded Vanguards with R2-180 and 81a Grippins. I started it up last summer and I definitely think it has improved my alpine riding a bit. I do notice interestingly that longboard tend to prefer as little ankle support as possible with longboarding - opting for thin converse type canvas shoes with thin soles, sandals, or even barefoot!

About the moving to 3-straps, I think there is a tradeoff there. Beginners will be able to take advantage of the great power offered by the 3-straps, but on the flipside that much prevent them from fully developing their own ankle/leg strength as they use their gear as a crutch... leaving them unable to ride when given softer equipment (which seems to happen to many hardbooters trying out softboots). I guess you could argue why would a hardbooter ever want to ride softbooters, or why would someone go from 3-strap bindings back down to 2-strap bindings... I don't have a good answer to that.

My only comparison is from ice skating and rollerblading (and extension of my previous comment). Earlier rollerblades (early/mid nineties for me) were very stiff plastic shells that extend up to the calf and that gave tremendous lateral ankle support. This made it very easy to learn how to rollerblade at high speeds as one did not need to develop much ankle strength. However... transferring to ice skates, which have less ankle support (to allow for tighter turns and cuts) many rollerbladers for the transition very difficult as they had yet to develop the ankle strength and control that would be expected for someone of their ability and are unable to make tight turns or cuts... This "rollerblader" syndrome tends to result in skaters tying their ankles extremely tight, even wrapping their laces around the top of skate like a ankle strap to stiffen the top of their boot to lock down their ankles laterally. It is easy to pick them out on the skating rink because they have a tendency to skate with their feet out wide for for stability like "/ \"

I myself started as a rollerblader and only started ice skates at the relatively late age of 14 and while it has been well over a decade since then, I still feel like in someways my rollerblading tendencies still affect my skating and ice hockey play today. I hope you see the parallel I've drawn between stiff fitness rollerblade skates vs lower-cut ice hockey skates and hardboots/3-straps vs softboots/2-straps.

Originally posted by oldsnowboards

To some that still are not believers. It is about the toe side power! The heel side is typically fine due the leverage of most any high backs on the base plate. Big guys on big boards really value the toe side power in powder or carving. Well done.

Interesting, while I'm sure I could carve a bit harder with more toeside power, I've never found it an issue myself. Of course I'm a small guy (5'8" 150) on a small board (155 freeride, 170 alpine) so maybe that's why. I rode super stiff alpine boots at the beginning of this season and I didn't like them compared to the softer pair I have now - again probably because I'm smaller, lighter.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by lonerider

About the moving to 3-straps, I think there is a tradeoff there. Beginners will be able to take advantage of the great power offered by the 3-straps, but on the flipside that much prevent them from fully developing their own ankle/leg strength as they use their gear as a crutch... leaving them unable to ride when given softer equipment (which seems to happen to many hardbooters trying out softboots). I guess you could argue why would a hardbooter ever want to ride softbooters, or why would someone go from 3-strap bindings back down to 2-strap bindings... I don't have a good answer to that.

I <i>really</i> think this is a non-issue. People ride what they want to ride. The only way 3-strap bindings limit you is for tweaking airs. That's it. If someone is determined to become a good pipe/park rider, they'll take off the 3rd strap when they want to ride pipe and get good at it. If not, they can ride their 3 straps all the time and not miss a thing.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

I <i>really</i> think this is a non-issue. People ride what they want to ride. The only way 3-strap bindings limit you is for tweaking airs. That's it. If someone is determined to become a good pipe/park rider, they'll take off the 3rd strap when they want to ride pipe and get good at it. If not, they can ride their 3 straps all the time and not miss a thing.

Perhaps your opinion is right, but I'm going to stick by my opinion until I can get my hands on a pair 3-strap bindings. So I too would like to see a revival of 3-strap bindings for the general populace - I don't have the expertise to create such a binding, but I support anyone who tries.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

YOU GO BURTON BOY!! ;)

[Gecko]

I do notice interestingly that longboard tend to prefer as little ankle support as possible with longboarding - opting for thin converse type canvas shoes with thin soles, sandals, or even barefoot!

Funny you should say that street skateboarders (the annoying guys you see destroying handrails and parkbenches everywhere) have the same attitude as the DH/SL crew as shoes go (except they have more fashionable shoes) you can think of these guys as you park rats. Ramp riders in contrast use much more stable shoes often with an ankle brace (or two) these guys are your half pipe riders. Carreer ending ankle injuries are much more common in the street area that. Pool guys are a mix of Ramp and street good shoes but they are like you hockey skaters even if they have trashed their ankle they skate loose...I still skate DH in oldskool Vans and ramps and pools in DC's with ankle braces

[skatha]

I got a "all in one" set up through Sector 9- a 46" Flexy deck...

As for skating, I have some rollerblades from 1991-plastic shell, hot pink wheels-I've used them about 5 times, including this last weekend when my son was invited to a party at a roller rink(he's 6)

I started ice skating at the really ripe age of 39. I got my own skates almost immediately because I hate wearing clothing already used by other people and the rental skates were so godawful uncomfortable-not so much lack of ankle support, I have no arches and any hard preformed arch in a shoe kills my feet.

I skate fairly well-got hung up on forward crossovers but I was taught the hard way. Rollerblading-at least with my old classics-has a different feel and I definitely prefer ice skating to rollerblading. I love the feel of freshly sharpened blades on pristine ice.

I was constantly spraining my ankles as a kid-the whole trail running shoe thing came about 15 years too late for me. As a result, I like a nice supporting shoe. I actually got some skate shoes for my longboard-they were godawful uncomfortable, too. I tried putting superfeet blues in them and then took out the insole all together. Now I ride my longboard with my Nike hi-tops and wear my skate shoes when I'm looking for that poseur look-like going to the grocery store

[lonerider]

Originally posted by skatha

I got a "all in one" set up through Sector 9- a 46" Flexy deck...

As for skating, I have some rollerblades from 1991-plastic shell, hot pink wheels-I've used them about 5 times, including this last weekend when my son was invited to a party at a roller rink(he's 6)

I started ice skating at the really ripe age of 39. I got my own skates almost immediately because I hate wearing clothing already used by other people and the rental skates were so godawful uncomfortable-not so much lack of ankle support, I have no arches and any hard preformed arch in a shoe kills my feet.

I skate fairly well-got hung up on forward crossovers but I was taught the hard way. Rollerblading-at least with my old classics-has a different feel and I definitely prefer ice skating to rollerblading. I love the feel of freshly sharpened blades on pristine ice.

I was constantly spraining my ankles as a kid-the whole trail running shoe thing came about 15 years too late for me. As a result, I like a nice supporting shoe. I actually got some skate shoes for my longboard-they were godawful uncomfortable, too. I tried putting superfeet blues in them and then took out the insole all together. Now I ride my longboard with my Nike hi-tops and wear my skate shoes when I'm looking for that poseur look-like going to the grocery store

Yea, the early 90's rollerblades had the heava, thick plastic shells that I'm talking about (Raichles boots remind me of them) and they feel noticeably different from ice skates (I too now prefer ice). Nowadays, rollerblades have much lighter, thinner and some variants have much lower cuffs. Salomon came "soft" versions in the late 90's now which I've heard were very popular - my friend has a pair of "soft" ski boots by Salomon I think, but he seems to have mixed reviews of it.

I too have relatively flat feet and my feet really hurt after an about an hour of skateboarding because I push so much pressure on my feet that they flatten onto of the arch/flat of my shoes. My green superfeet only reduce the pain a little, but(!) the Surefoot custom insoles which have a bigger medial sidewall thingie noticeably reduce my arch collapse/pain (I suspect any custom footbed with lots of arch support will help). Something you should consider. I haven't look at skates shoes myself (I have notice more people use them for walking around than skating) since I had already dedicated a pair of old Merrill Ventilator Trailrunner shoes, but they are wearing out so I might buy a pair soon.

I used to run cross-country and played soccer/ultimate frisbee, so I've used to having essentially no-ankle support for running/pivoting actvities - however for skating, snowboarding, etc... I still like some ankle support.

[skatha]

Hmmmm...about my feet-I have congenitally flat feet and internally rotated/pronated ankles....superfeet greenies are really too painful to use.

But my midfoot is where I hurt when I longboard in shoes other than my Nikes....

Ah, well--I can't be "core" so I'll stick to being comfortable:D

[mnovak]

Interesting points on 2 versus 3-strap. I was just wondering whether anyone has views on the F2 softboot intec system. I have only seen them on Blue-Tomato and the F2 website and they claim they are the stiffest softboot set up you can get. I also boarded with a woman from Germany and she had step-in softies (Nitros I think) from Europe that I've never seen in North America -- she could carve really well with the set-up (she was also a hardbooter).

I think the top F2 intec softboot is called the Hurricane and the intec binding has a highback with a "wing" like on some of the K2s for heelside leverage.

Any experiences out there?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by mnovak

I also boarded with a woman from Germany and she had step-in softies (Nitros I think) from Europe that I've never seen in North America -- she could carve really well with the set-up (she was also a hardbooter).

I think the top F2 intec softboot is called the Hurricane and the intec binding has a highback with a "wing" like on some of the K2s for heelside leverage.

Any experiences out there?

I'm pretty sure the Nitros were clickers. I rode Nitro clicker boots for five years and the website still shows them as selling Clicker boots and bindings. I believe that Shimano actually designed and owes the patents to Clicker bindings and K2 just licenses it from them.

[stevo]

I tried the Shimano/K2 Clickers when they came out. The cool thing I liked about them was that I could easily click-in my back foot on the chairlift ride for quick getaways at the top.

I never could get the laces tight enough eventually ripping the leather around all the supports....I even attached a booster strap to try to get the support I wanted from the spine of the boot (no good). I guess I was destined to be a hardbooter but didn't know it then- why did it take so long for me to wake up??:)

[D-Sub]

just kinda laughin at Gecko's comments about street skaters. I skated street for years since that was mostly all I had access too, with the occasional ditch or backyard pool thrown in

[Gecko]

Originally posted by D-Sub

just kinda laughin at Gecko's comments about street skaters. I skated street for years since that was mostly all I had access too, with the occasional ditch or backyard pool thrown in

Yeah I did to during the 80's there was narry a curb in my home town that hadn't seen my Indy's every house I have every lived in has had a toasted curb near by. That's still true now though then and now I skate ditches ramps and pools by choice...my street play is limited to mostly stupid curb tricks

[eastcoasticerider]

I cant quit thinking of that catek threestrap setup,its like the holy grail or something......

as fall approaches would you consider posting some closeup photos of where the third strap bolts on etc. I also dont quite get the "hook" thingy...do i cannibalize my old Burton Torques?......we may be onto something.......

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I am in a similar mind set. Totally hooked on the power and force provided by the hard boots. Live to alpine carve, yet have always preferred the "Surf" feel of the soft boots in the pow. Couple that with the fact I prefer longboards and weight over 200lbs, the stength of the toe-side benefits of the 3 strap has always been my friend.

Hence the "Torque" is still on my "Favorites" list. The issue is the primative straps and hassle/speed of loading/off loading. The Intec system has spoiled me big time. Snappin it and steppin "Lively" off the chair on a big pow day is not to be discounted in my book. Being first chair is a good thing , but having someone poach "First Tracks" because you are "Gettin in" is not good.

Lets keep this focus and drive to the result alive. Thanks, Bryan

PS. I have also tried using a Burton SI with locking flad and a bolt on 3rd strap. Step in speed with 3rd strap power. I had issues with the boot fit (super narrow / long foot)

[Bordy]

I am so anti 3 strap its scary!!!

I rode 3 straps for years starting with the Burton DV and into the Flex then into the Tourqe(still mounted on a PJ 7).

My take currently is if I think I would like a 3 strap what I really need is a softer hard boot or perhaps I nedd some time in my soft boots to really rember how to ride them. With this in mind I have been more then happy in stiff soft boot and binding set ups there is a lot more benifits to be gain by having the ability to move towards the tip or tail on a softer more forgiving soft board.

Maybe it the summer jones that makes the idea of the 3 strap so good, but on snow taking the time to learn to ride a 2 strap set up should be a much more rewarding experance performance wise in the long run.

I'm sure every one has great Ideas about the benifits of a three strap and for a handful riders out there the 3 strap may just change their life.

If you are not comfy in your hard boots then you need to see a bootfitter. I spend so much time in my boots its not fair to my feet, this year it took almost all season to get them right, some seasons it only takes a week or so but in my 30= years in a plastic boot i have always mad a boot comfy. Sure there may be a few people who can not make this happen perhaps a three strap binding is the answer.

The other Issue we se all the time is riders trying to power more board then they can or should be riding. If the board fits you well all you really need is the support a 2 strap gives you. I really see this as the new school Alpine out look! Alpine boards and boots are getting softer soon there may be a set up to fill the niche so many off you are trying to fix with a three strap.

O-kay now to make the catek folk angery....

The Catek free ride binding sure needs some help, it has a flat base boot platform with no walls for lateral support. I have ridden the binding over and over, heck there's a demo pair in my basement right now. Every time I have twisted my ankle. i have not giving up on the binding and have tried over and over but same deal twisted ankle. In Burton Driver in Delluxe boots, In Burton Ions and SL7s twisted!!!

I am sure a third strap would help stabilize my ankle and allow me to power the board up in the direction that I normally twist my ankle but heck sure would some side walls on the base plate.

We have demoed these bindings out to a bunch of folks and have heard the same complant from upper level riders many with alpine back grounds who now ride soft boots like many of us wish we could ride hardboots.

Is everyone going to feel the same way about the Free ride?... no Could it be better? ...Yes

Stevo obviously felt his cateks could be better and did a great job modifing them. We have seen the catek modifided alot by coaches on the tour.

Catek makes some great alpine bindings but ride a pair before you buy them. Also make sure you give the other big companys high end bindings a try also you may be surprised.

Man i glad i didn't bring up boots and there effect in this issue..

Late

[mirror70]

I just want to say "2nd" in response to Bordy's post.

If you "need" a third strap, you're doing something wrong. Either your boots don't fit, you're riding the wrong boots, or you're simply riding wrong.

The adjustment of the Cateks is excellent. The fit of the Cateks is bad. A flat piece of aluminum simply cannot match the fit that a piece of injection molded plastic offers (such as what Burton uses).

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Bordy

I am so anti 3 strap its scary!!!

My take currently is if I think I would like a 3 strap what I really need is a softer hard boot or perhaps I nedd some time in my soft boots to really rember how to ride them.

Maybe it the summer jones that makes the idea of the 3 strap so good, but on snow taking the time to learn to ride a 2 strap set up should be a much more rewarding experance performance wise in the long run.

I'm sure every one has great Ideas about the benifits of a three strap and for a handful riders out there the 3 strap may just change their life.

The other Issue we se all the time is riders trying to power more board then they can or should be riding. If the board fits you well all you really need is the support a 2 strap gives you.

Dang... Mirror70 beat me to it. I'm sure most hardboot hardliners still probably *vehemently* disagree, but I too agree with Bordy's assessment of the situation whole-heartedly. Of course I've already been dismissed by hardboot hardliners many times before so what do I know.

Catek Freerides:

I didn't notice the ankle thing with the Cateks... but that's because my boot actually fits *inside* the heelcup and is nicely held there. My problem with the Cateks is the lack of shock absorption... which I think is a limiting factor for rider under 170 lbs once you get off the nicely groomed runs, but that's just my "softbooter" opinion. The Nidecker Carbons are also very stiff... but have a shock absorbing layer very much like the TD2 E-ring. I've never had problem with toeside power... maybe it's because I'm lightm but have a lot of strength in my legs (virtually only my legs since I can barely bench press my own weight - even though I can squat twice and leg press triple that).

[bobdea]

I love my cateks but they do have some issues

for me to make them work I needed different straps

I thought that the cateks could use a bit more shape to them as well both under foot and on the sides

still don't like the highbacks but overall with some tweaking the cateks are the best thing out there for me

I used to like three strap bindings, I rode a pair in 2003 the same make as I had liked in past like a burton custom but with that giant lower strap and the locking back, these were the last three strap bindings they made

I hated them this time around, they reminded me of a stiffer side interface stepin boot like the switch or burton SI stuff, just too damn restrictive for me

sorta reminded me of using ski boots with plates