Looking for bigger radius

[daveo]

24 minutes ago, Ondrej said:

Was it stiff enough? What conditions? Any ice? :)

In fact it was quite stiff. Much stiffer than my Kessler. So smooth though. No ice, but very bumpy. It just sliced through it, where my Kessler was getting flappy nose syndrome.

[Ondrej]

50 minutes ago, daveo said:

In fact it was quite stiff. Much stiffer than my Kessler. So smooth though. No ice, but very bumpy. It just sliced through it, where my Kessler was getting flappy nose syndrome.

I made a request to one Czech store, where they seem to have good deals on SG decks right now, to find out what they have... If the Full Carve is like the Full Race without the metal plate, I can imagine both performing similar on good snow, while the metal holds some extra on ice. Seems really interesting. I'll check out the custom Kessler next weekend as well, see how it rides. And I'll keep looking for alternatives :)

[daveo]

All I can say is give it a demo. I think you'll be surprised as I was. 

[teach]

You may want to try both a stiffer board of otherwise similar specs, and a board with a bigger scr that's equivalently stiff to your Prior (whatever that means). If it's really the bigger scr you're after, then going longer might be your thing. More board to soak up irregularities, hold on ice, etc.

I have a 180 SG Full Carve and a 179 F2 Speedster Equipe from about the same year (2013 or 14) and they have a pretty similar ride (I think...). Pointing that out as you may see F2s available. But I prefer the SG Full Race, probably because I just like damp boards. However, I won't complain about any of them, they're really nice. Just wish there was some winter somewhere close so I could ride 'em...

Oh yeah, the Full Carve 170 is what Sigi is riding in the "Ride with Me" video. Seems to be holding up under him...

Finally, your Prior might be an older one with a round nose? The newer boards with the blunt nose have lots more edge, so a 170 SG probably is effectively longer than your 173 Prior. Obvious, maybe, but thought I'd point it out just in case.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by teach

[Ondrej]

9 hours ago, teach said:

If it's really the bigger scr you're after, then going longer might be your thing. More board to soak up irregularities, hold on ice, etc.

Finally, your Prior might be an older one with a round nose? The newer boards with the blunt nose have lots more edge, so a 170 SG probably is effectively longer than your 173 Prior. Obvious, maybe, but thought I'd point it out just in case.

Thanks for the info. I have checked here and it seems like I have the newer type: https://www.priorsnow.com/products/wcrm, mine looks like this at least. Perhaps it was the metal top BlueB talked about that had the more round nose. (unless they have some completely new board that is not on the website here)

I'll try one Kessler tomorrow or on Sunday, but I have had a chance to ask few people both racing and freecarving SG boards about the bigger radius turns and I might be leaning towards SG Full Race 180 with a Vist plate, or something similar. 19 meters radius, but still should be able to turn pretty fast if needed. The 170 boards look awesome, but like checking the Sigi "ride with me" video, there isn't enough difference from the Prior in terms of bigger turns...

[daveo]

One of the guys I ride with rides only SG. He says the Full Race are good for racing and the Full Carve he much prefers for freecarving. In saying that I've only used the 170 Full Carve and loved it. In fact I'm buying one now. He also rides a 180 Full Carve. But he's a big guy 220lb and can ride hard. I cannot ride as hard as him.

Love that ride with me vid

[Buell]

14 hours ago, Ondrej said:

 I might be leaning towards SG Full Race 180 with a Vist plate, or something similar. 19 meters radius, but still should be able to turn pretty fast if needed.

Now we are talking!   My SG 175 Full Race was amazing for freecarving. Hold on for sure, that board will be fast!

[Ondrej]

Little update,

Today was lucky to get hands on and test a custom Kessler alpine 174. Unfortunately no specs available, but will get nose/waist/tail width and try to check with Kessler as to what SCR that probably was. Stiffness pretty good I think. I had about 8-10 runs with pretty good variety of terrain, hard pack snow, great conditions, and can say three things:

1) the deck grips and commits like crazy, the first run (rusty after long break) I managed to go 2x uphill at the beginning :D before I figured out the behavior. But soon after beginning the deck felt predictable and the grip felt like being glued to the hill - The Prior is really good, but this was yet another level.

2) I loved how friendly it is for just easy cruising, but give it some hard work and it answers right back. However, committing too much was a little scary with small room for error before forest started.

3) the main thing though, turn radius, was noticeably, but not much bigger than the Prior I tested right after for comparison. Should this be my only deck for everything, I'd take it.

Quite coincidentally, the guy who let me test this deck was himself on a Swoard mentioned here earlier. It seemed like a great deck for freecarving, but he told me himself that it didn't have the ability of the Kessler in 2)

I wonder if K 180 behaves similar, just a bit longer turns. Could it do what I was hoping for? I assume the SG decks will be very comparable if not better from what others say, I hope that I can take a look at them at some point.

Edited March 3, 2018 by Ondrej

[nextcarve]

21 hours ago, Ondrej said:

I wonder if K 180 behaves similar, just a bit longer turns. Could it do what I was hoping for? I assume the SG decks will be very comparable if not better from what others say, I hope that I can take a look at them at some point.

Kesser or SG 180, you can't go wrong with either them and the longer edge gives you more stability for bigger radius and speed. And as I already said: Don't be afraid of the length, you'll get used to it.

Regarding Kessler you have to know that the serial boards from 2016/17 and later are made by Kessler them self (in their own all new Swiss snowboard plant) and they are a big step ahead from the serial board, where the production was outsourced to a Austrian plant (which is out of business now). Kessler custom boards of course, always have been made by Kessler.

[Ondrej]

21 minutes ago, nextcarve said:

Regarding Kessler you have to know that the serial boards from 2016/17 and later are made by Kessler them self (in their own all new Swiss snowboard plant) and they are a big step ahead from the serial board, where the production was outsourced to a Austrian plant (which is out of business now). Kessler custom boards of course, always have been made by Kessler.

Ok, that's good to know, thanks.

Does anyone know any difference between the K180 and SG full face 180?

Is the SG deck just as committed and the Kessler or easier to exit the turn?

[nextcarve]

47 minutes ago, Ondrej said:

Does anyone know any difference between the K180 and SG full face 180?

Is the SG deck just as committed and the Kessler or easier to exit the turn?

Thing is, I own a SG Full Race 185 and I love it, because of its kindness to the rider, while still being very committed on the edge (that's the best way I can describe it, with my limited english vocabulary). There are boards which are more aggressive, but why work harder while not having more fun?

As I already wrote I rode the Kessler 180 for half a day and I absolutely loved it, because of it's edge hold on ice, lively handling and being very kind to me too. I would have bought it if I didn't have 4 other 185cm Boards of that kind.

Both Boards are worth it and you will not regret to buy one of them. Fortunately you have to decide ?

[teach]

I've ridden both and while I'm far from expert, I find a big difference between them. Buell's description of the SG as having "more backbone" is a nice way to put it. It's probably stiffer, but it's extremely damp, so the stiffness is harder to compare. The Kessler wants to conform to the snow surface (and does that really well) while the SG seems like it's got so much mass it just cuts/plows/whatever and you barely notice due to the dampness.

If I were on softer, bumpy snow I'd prefer the Kessler. Ice, the Kessler, but the SG is tenacious too. The extra feedback and softer (or just different) flex from the Kessler makes me more confident (easier to keep speed down). If I were going really fast I'd prefer the SG. Very secure feeling. Both dreamy.

Ride them both if you get a chance.

[Buell]

3 hours ago, teach said:

I've ridden both and while I'm far from expert, I find a big difference between them. Buell's description of the SG as having "more backbone" is a nice way to put it. It's probably stiffer, but it's extremely damp, so the stiffness is harder to compare. The Kessler wants to conform to the snow surface (and does that really well) while the SG seems like it's got so much mass it just cuts/plows/whatever and you barely notice due to the dampness.

If I were on softer, bumpy snow I'd prefer the Kessler. Ice, the Kessler, but the SG is tenacious too. The extra feedback and softer (or just different) flex from the Kessler makes me more confident (easier to keep speed down). If I were going really fast I'd prefer the SG. Very secure feeling. Both dreamy.

Ride them both if you get a chance.

This is close to my impression as well. The SG slices and the Kessler "wants to conform." They both are both great.

[Ondrej]

I cannot unfortunately test the SG deck, it would be ideal.

9 hours ago, Buell said:

This is close to my impression as well. The SG slices and the Kessler "wants to conform." They both are both great.

Guys, can I ask you one last thing? How are those decks in terms of exiting a turn earlier?

What scared me little bit on that Kessler I tested was those committed exits. It wasn't the speed that was any issue, more like the noticeable extra effort it took to initiate next turn earlier than what would have been natural to it - like in case you need to react fast- other skiers, etc. It was just hooking that fraction of a second extra. I pushed it from forrest to forrest on not very wide slope and didn't really feel all that comfortable in this regard. If you even noticed it, is it any different on the SG deck?

I have talked to one SG dealer and managed to pull a good deal for a new 17/18 Full Race, if taken with a Vist plate and F2 intec titanium bindings, about USD 1350 for the whole package, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Ondrej

[daveo]

Any reason why you don't want to try a Full Carve? General consensus from what I've heard is it's a better carving board and the Full Race is better for racing. That's coming from a few guys but the one I trust most is a racer, who much prefers his Full Carves for recreational carving. Says the flex pattern is different, not just the different construction. In saying that out of those boards, I've only ridden a Kessler and an SG Full Carve. I prefered the Full Carve by miles. But that's just me ...

I personally had trouble making full linked Cs on the big Kessler, also. Kind of just wanted to point me down the fall line now that could also be attributed to my crappy riding, but who knows.

Have you considered going for a floating isolation plate instead of the Vist, like a Boiler Plate or say Apex plate?

[Buell]

13 minutes ago, Ondrej said:

I cannot unfortunately test the SG deck, it would be ideal.

Guys, can I ask you one last thing? How are those decks in terms of exiting a turn earlier?

What scared me little bit on that Kessler I tested was those committed exits. It wasn't the speed that was any issue, more like the noticeable extra effort it took to initiate next turn earlier than what would have been natural to it - like in case you need to react fast- other skiers, etc. It was just hooking that fraction of a second extra. I pushed it from forrest to forrest on not very wide slope and didn't really feel all that comfortable in this regard. If you even noticed it, is it any different on the SG deck?

I have talked to one SG dealer and managed to pull a good deal for a new 17/18 Full Race, if taken with a Vist plate and F2 intec titanium bindings, about USD 1350 for the whole package, which seems pretty reasonable to me.

I am not exact certain what you are asking. This sounds like a technique issue, perhaps your weight is too far back at the end of the turn? Race boards are designed to initiate and release easily from turns (that is one of the things I love about them), but they perform poorly when you get behind them. Their speed seems to catch a lot of people off guard. The boards are so smooth that a rider might not feel the speed increase from their previous board. The edge of the groom certainly comes extra fast though and the is rider very likely is out of position to initiate the next turn.

Also, with a bigger turning board, there might be runs that you make speed control, C turns, on your tighter turning board, but you cannot do that on the bigger board. You have to make more open, higher speed turns down those runs.

 

Edited March 5, 2018 by Buell

[Ondrej]

47 minutes ago, Buell said:

I am not exact certain what you are asking. This sounds like a technique issue, perhaps your weight is too far back at the end of the turn? Race boards are designed to initiate and release easily from turns (that is one of the things I love about them), but they perform poorly when you get behind them. Their speed seems to catch a lot of people off guard. The boards are so smooth that a rider might not feel the speed increase from their previous board. The edge of the groom certainly comes extra fast though and the rider very likely is out of position to initiate the turn.

Also, with a bigger turning board, there definitely might be runs that you make speed control, C turns, on your tighter turning board, but you cannot do that on the bigger board. You have to make more open, higher speed turns down those runs.

 

I wasn't having issue with speed, even though the deck was speeding up the turn more than my Prior for sure. Not so easy to describe. Could be me, or the stance I didn't have any time to adjust, not sure.

What I meant is the edge lock, or concrete grip all the way until I was able to get up and over the board, which took longer time or more effort than I would have liked. Initiating the turn with weight forward and mid section was no different, but on the exit, normally, I would have shifted weight a bit back to "unlock" the the nose (or front third of the board), and could get up and over with weight forward easily or jump fast into next turn as needed. On this Kessler, the nose was gripping quite a bit longer (what I mean by that commitment), and it has one heck of a grip. It took some effort to dig it up when I didn't have time to wait. If anything, I am wondering if I should have moved the stance even more back in fact, as the initialization was almost too easy. I just mounted it centered on those inserts, no idea what the setback of the inserts was.

Just to say it, I had fun with it, it didn't spoil my ride or anything and worked fine, I just wasn't sure I was 100% able to change anything until I was up and over the deck again. If it makes any sense...

Edited March 5, 2018 by Ondrej

[Buell]

I am most comfortable describing how the boards ride. It is impossible to know without seeing you ride if technique is an issue or not. From what you have written, I continue to think that technique is a factor in how the board is performing under your feet. I apologize if I am overstepping here.

Interestingly, an issue a lot of riders have with heavily tapered race boards is that they actually have a hard time finishing a turn across the fall line. They describe the board as only wanting to go down the fall line. I have never found this to be an issue and can put these boards where ever I want them to go.

These boards will ride differently than your Prior. They will require a more aggressive approach. Think about a racer in a course. There is no shifting your weight back on these boards, your focus and drive is always forward. You are always "up and over the board." You do not need to think about getting the board to release if you are already over it, just flip it with your feet/ankles while driving forward into the turn. 

I can almost assure you that moving your bindings back will not improve the ride.

All that said, the issue could be partly in your set up. When I would ride my 175 SG, I would increase the forward lean in my UPZs by one setting on both boots compared to riding my SL board.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Buell

[Ondrej]

21 minutes ago, Buell said:

I am most comfortable describing how the boards ride. It is impossible to know without seeing you ride if technique is an issue or not. From what you have written, I continue to think that technique is a factor in how the board is performing under your feet. I apologize if I am overstepping here.

Interestingly, an issue a lot of riders have with heavily tapered race boards is that they actually have a hard time finishing a turn across the fall line. They describe the board as only wanting to go down the fall line. I have never found this to be an issue and can put these boards where ever I want them to go.

These boards will ride differently than your Prior. They will require a more aggressive approach. Think about a racer in a course. There is no shifting your weight back on these boards, your focus and drive is always forward. You are always "up and over the board." You do not need to think about getting the board to release if you are already over it, just flip it with your feet/ankles while driving forward into the turn. 

I can almost assure you that moving your bindings back will not improve the ride.

All that said, the issue could be partly in your set up. When I would ride my 175 SG, I would increase the forward lean in my UPZs by one setting on both boots compared to riding my SL board.

No worries, I'm not taking any technique pointers as any offense of any sort. That's valuable input and how you describe it with staying over the board actually corresponds with how I eventually got it to work the best when trying to flip it faster. Just not the way I used to ride the prior but I suppose that's not strange either. I got some nice runs out of it for sure, and perhaps more time on it than those 8-10 runs would help to adjust.

[Ondrej]

Final update, decision has been made and 2018/19 SG Full Race 180 is pre-ordered with arrival in October. Guys there say it's improved construction for next year, with thicker titanal plate for better weight transition and vibration dampening. SG team has tested it and it should be one heck of a deck, just not easy to get hands on those test pieces this year. Too bad, but I'm no big fish :)

Thanks everyone for all the good input 

Edited March 10, 2018 by Ondrej

[daveo]

 

31 minutes ago, Ondrej said:

Final update, decision has been made and 2018/19 SG Full Race 180 is pre-ordered with arrival in October. Guys there say it's improved construction for next year, with thicker titanal plate for better weight transition and vibration dampening. SG team has tested it and it should be one heck of a deck, just not easy to get hands on those test pieces this year. Too bad, but I'm no big fish :)

Thanks everyone for all the good input 

That sounds awesome. Did you get the optional Allflex inserts? May I what made you decide on SG and not Kessler, Oxess or F2?

[SunSurfer]

Sounds like SG have run out of .3mm titanal just like Bruce @ Coiler has. Good sales strategy to turn a forced change into a "positive". The experience with .4mm titanal so far has generally been enthusiastic acceptance. I certainly love my NFCE T+ with .4T.

[Ondrej]

5 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Sounds like SG have run out of .3mm titanal just like Bruce @ Coiler has. Good sales strategy to turn a forced change into a "positive". The experience with .4mm titanal so far has generally been enthusiastic acceptance. I certainly love my NFCE T+ with .4T.

That's interesting and certainly possible. Thanks for the update. What difference does the 4mm titanal make in your deck?

I believe it should be good either way. Had a chance to still get this year's deck, but I'd wait a month and only use it 3 days in April, or snatch the new model for same discounted price :)

[Ondrej]

7 hours ago, daveo said:

 

That sounds awesome. Did you get the optional Allflex inserts? May I what made you decide on SG and not Kessler, Oxess or F2?

I haven't ordered the extra inserts (yet) and I have so far decided to drop the plate. But I'll still give those inserts a thought. Well, I went for a metal board. It was a combination of all the info around, the little testing, the really good deal, and most importantly, a gut feeling :)

[daveo]

4 minutes ago, Ondrej said:

a gut feeling :)

Sometimes that's the best indicator!! 

Well if you like to push it to the speed limit the metal board is the way to go. Harder to bend and good to have thighs of steel!