Getting the full extension on toe side advice

sic t 2 · January 16, 2018

On 1/12/2018 at 5:37 PM, eusahn said:

Basically, the problem I have is that when I do get low, I want to extend my legs but the edges are so locked in that they don't move at all.

Extend much, much earlier. Its more of a trick than it is a high G turn. In this pic u should be almost fully extended already.

scottishsurfer · January 16, 2018

5 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Don't think of that. This only robs edge hold and hurts your technique. The good riders in the videos posted have 0% weight on their elbow/hand/arm. Most of the time Knapton uses it more as a feeler. Like a motorcycle racer's knee. Sometimes he does use it as a crutch, but many people including me are guilty of that sometimes.

Your completely right but i do think when your initially learning a little bit of weight helps atleast getting your confidence and feel for it but truely mastering it yeah there is very little if any weight on it.

One of my favorite drills i term "snow is lava" ie i try to get as low as possible and not touch with either hand :)

nextcarve · January 17, 2018

eusahn · February 24, 2018

Thanks to everyone that replied.

After lot's of research and practice, I was finally able to get it and know how to do it.

It's still not at the level I want it to be, but I made lots of adjustments to make this happen.

Looking to really perfect this technique in upcoming seasons.

One of the things that helped was really angulating the board by pushing down the boots then extending like a spring.

Thanks everyone! Now I will venture out to heelside when ready.

Edited February 24, 2018 by eusahn

sic t 2 · February 24, 2018

Kicking ass. Looks great ?

RyanKnapton · February 24, 2018

Here's my best tips for it once you are already making killer toeside turns...

Also, a chance I might hit Loveland tomorrow... would love to meet up with the Sunday crew for a couple runs if so... Mario, you going? will you message me your # if so?

SolRosenburg · February 24, 2018

Really? Getting low in softboots is one thing and requires skill. Teaching new riders to use their arm as a crutch is not really teaching them the right way. To each their own i guess, but it just looks soo goofy with all these new riders using their arm as a crutch and holding up their weight. Seeing this on the hill I thought this was just an unlearned rider "getting the hang of it". I had NO idea this technique was being taught.

Respect the carve. Don't butcher it.

Edited February 24, 2018 by SolRosenburg
Edited for political statement

crackaddict · February 24, 2018

@SolRosenburg: Nice first post, just coming out swinging eh? Welcome to Bomber, troll away. No need to edit out the politics next time, a lot of us appreciate the entertainment value. But please be careful of using "goofy" in a derogatory way. Some of my best friends are goofy.

Edited February 24, 2018 by crackaddict
Edited for political statement

SolRosenburg · February 24, 2018

My apologies, i'll try to tip-toe through the tulips next time. I do appreciate you looking out for me though as I embark on this journey and navigate through the sea of snowboarding yentas.

In 1/2 seriousness though, I find this teaching method (using arm as a crutch) extremely offensive to the sport and should be banned! It's like taking your new carbon Santa Cruz DH bike equipping it w/ training wheels, then meandering down A-Line and knuckling every jump. Or equipping your boogie board with an outrigger and surf-mount go-pro.....Sure you could do it, but why?

With our equipment (soft or hard -- that's what she said!), AND a little skill, there's absolutely NO NEED to be using your arm as a crutch in order to "get low", "extended", "pure", "euro", "yada?"

Is it a style thing? is it a lack of skill thing? A beginner thing? I'm confused by this recent phenomena of snowboarders using their appendages as training wheels. #RespektTheCarve #LookMomNoHands

Edited February 24, 2018 by SolRosenburg

AcousticBoarder · February 24, 2018

So I guess pureboarding and EC style should be banned too? The way Ryan is teaching here is the same as is done in Pureboarding: start by getting low, angulate, and extend. At 9:34 mark he even says not to put pressure on the arm. Mind you I am not as proficient as others are in soft boots, but in softboot carving, unless you are using hardboot angles, I would think the way he is teaching this is safest place for your arm. There's no room to keep the arm down, and you are likely to dislocate something if you do something else. Yes some part of it comes from the style of a laid out carve, but also a lot goes back to safely making a laid out carve.

If you think he is advocating for use of upper body as a training wheel, go ahead and look back at all of his carving instructional videos, instead of taking one out of context.

Edited February 24, 2018 by AcousticBoarder

Rob Stevens · February 24, 2018

18 minutes ago, AcousticBoarder said:

So I guess pureboarding and EC style should be banned too? The way Ryan is teaching here is the same as is done in Pureboarding: start by getting low, angulate, and extend. At 9:34 mark he even says not to put pressure on the arm. Mind you I am not as proficient as others are in soft boots, but in softboot carving, unless you are using hardboot angles, I would think the way he is teaching this is safest place for your arm. There's no room to keep the arm down, and you are likely to dislocate something if you do something else. Yes some part of it comes from the style of a laid out carve, but also a lot goes back to safely making a laid out carve.

If you think he is advocating for use of upper body as a training wheel, go ahead and look back at all of his carving instructional videos, instead of taking one out of context.

^ Word.

The only way I've seen anyone get even close to EC low without an arm down is by absolutely fanging into a turn, where the G loading puts everything on the edge. Given that I presonally like to do these at a variety of speeds, I'll have either everything on my whole body, or just a few grams on the forearm. It's vanishingly rare that I would wouldn't at least have a hand down as a feeler.

Of course, I do leave room for your progression for this type of turn to have no arm involvement, but would like to see you do it.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Rob Stevens

SolRosenburg · February 24, 2018

Agree to disagree. Despite what's being said (or taught) in this video, visual evidence shows the arm is a crutch and is most certainly weight bearing... a lot of weight. A quick peruse of other videos on that channel shows the same thing. I can understand putting your hand down as a nod to confidence, feeler, awareness, etc, but in the videos i've viewed they are most certainly using the arm as a crutch, and the arm is bearing a majority of weight. You're telling me in the carves in the 1st 15 seconds of that vid they aren't resting ALOT of weight on their arms? That's full out-rigger mode right there :)

Edited February 24, 2018 by SolRosenburg

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

5 hours ago, RyanKnapton said:

Here's my best tips for it once you are already making killer toeside turns...

Also, a chance I might hit Loveland tomorrow... would love to meet up with the Sunday crew for a couple runs if so... Mario, you going? will you message me your # if so?

Good progression. Excellent in fact.

I'd just add one thing... When traversing at angles very much across the fall line, looking for an early edge change for the first few times, I'd do it further away from the trees and more in the middle of the run. That way, if you lose the nose to the outside and wind up "supermanning" downslope, you'll have a chance to stop before you header into the bush.

As an addition to that, I've recently been working on my flip over to get the edge below me in these situations. I'd forgotten about that move, as my toeside laydowns have been on lock for so many years, I didn't rememeber that there was even a need for it. After Ryan's wide board euro heelside vids and getting the Donek Sasquatch (thanks Jack) I took to doing them on the heels without giving the woods enough space. Not quite having the timing right did result in a few headfirst back-slides aimed right at the treeline. On the first, I managed to come to a stop. On the second, I wouldn't have stopped if I hadn't flipped over backwards, managing to dig in my toe edge. That would have been the end of me.

Again Ryan... Top shelf stuff.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rob Stevens

Beckmann AG · February 25, 2018

If the OP spent a little more time refining his heelside, he'd have a better launchpad, and more real estate for to try his handsy toeside antics.

Meanwhile

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

54 minutes ago, SolRosenburg said:

Agree to disagree. Despite what's being said (or taught) in this video, visual evidence shows the arm is a crutch and is most certainly weight bearing... a lot of weight. A quick peruse of other videos on that channel shows the same thing. I can understand putting your hand down as a nod to confidence, feeler, awareness, etc, but in the videos i've viewed they are most certainly using the arm as a crutch, and the arm is bearing a majority of weight. You're telling me in the carves in the 1st 15 seconds of that vid they aren't resting ALOT of weight on their arms? That's full out-rigger mode right there :)

Ryan has a few different velocities going here, as part of a progression.

At his fastest, you can see that his arm is projecting out in front of him, from the shoulder (the still used on the videos title page). In this position, there is very little structurally in place to support any weight whatsoever. At the beginning of his progression though, you do see a fair amount of weight on the arm as he "garlands", or traverses the slope. This is evidenced by the trench his arm leaves and the 90 degree bend in the elbow, with his upper arm perpendicular to the surface, as a prop.

What necessitates this is the need for a progression. If a novice could possibly come flashing into this move the first time, performing an arc that supported all the riders weight on the edge, as an instructor, you'd be good. The reality is that the novice should start this slowly.

Eventually, you can do this turn without support. That said, as I mentioned, I like to do it at a variety of speeds and for different purposes. When I do it slowly or fast to bleed off speed, I tend to be either on my thigh and hip, or on my thigh, hip and torso, so I'd add that to my list of "shapes" that a rider could make as they were building skills for this manouever.

We've seen this argument before... I'll call it an error of omission. As Ryan doesn't really explain in detail what I'm saying above (where arm pressure decreases as skill and velocity increases) you might be left thinking that it's not a part of his methodology. It is.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rob Stevens

Corey · February 25, 2018

I used to be in the camp that felt that any body part touching the snow detracted from the purity of the carve. Then I tried it and laughed at my former self.

You can have the same pure carve as when there's only weight on the edge, but get a LOT lower with only a bit of weight on your hand/elbow/body. Plus it's a bit of a safety net in case you temporarily lose the edge. PLUS it looks cool to bystanders.

I'd be surprised if I have 10 lbs of load on my hand in a turn. If you're bored, do the free body diagram to see how the angle can change with only a small load. Quite shocking.

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

^ Corey knows the bordin.

SolRosenburg · February 25, 2018

30 minutes ago, Corey said:

I used to be in the camp that felt that any body part touching the snow detracted from the purity of the carve. Then I tried it and laughed at my former self.

You can have the same pure carve as when there's only weight on the edge, but get a LOT lower with only a bit of weight on your hand/elbow/body. Plus it's a bit of a safety net in case you temporarily lose the edge. PLUS it looks cool to bystanders.

I'd be surprised if I have 10 lbs of load on my hand in a turn. If you're bored, do the free body diagram to see how the angle can change with only a small load. Quite shocking.

Agreed. A "bit" of weight on your arm/elbow is quite a bit different than completely resting on your arm/elbow and keeping you up. In the vid above, and in many of the vids on that channel, the rider(s) are using their arm/elbow to keep them up and as a brace/training wheel to allow them to get low.

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

17 minutes ago, SolRosenburg said:

Agreed. A "bit" of weight on your arm/elbow is quite a bit different than completely resting on your arm/elbow and keeping you up. In the vid above, and in many of the vids on that channel, the rider(s) are using their arm/elbow to keep them up and as a brace/training wheel to allow them to get low.

You don’t need to see it as a bad thing, but that’s an attitude sometimes experts get caught out with.

You used the phrase “training wheel”. That’s what it is. Use it until you don’t have to.

On a few of my pow surfers, I have a NoBoard rope. Some purists/ experts would say that it’s “cheating” to have such a thing. I’d say it’s there when you need it. If you don’t, don’t use it.

The issue on the learning side can be identified in your thoughts on the guy with the 12k bike, shorting the jumps. To progress, he needs to case a few times until he catches the landing. The guys up his ass should realize that their time isn’t for the WC overall, and that slow guy needs to go through the progression. Eventually, he’ll be fine and not need the “crutch” of going comparatively slow.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rob Stevens

SolRosenburg · February 25, 2018

As a training tool, I think it's questionable.

However, i see the riders in that serious of videos regularly doing it and not necessarily part of a "progression" demonstration. In fact, I've yet to see anyone in that series "getting low" without using their arm as a complete crutch. I just think it's their style (so be it), however I view it as a crutch.

If the purpose is to get low, and stylie, then you should have the skill to get low and stylie without the need for your arm "crutch" to keep you up and keep you from falling. I know what you are saying about progression, but I've seen enough vids in that series to think it's more than just a demonstration. Show me an example of one of those riders blasting a toeside, getting low, without completely resting on their arm? Their audio states that's not the case, but the videos seem to tell a different story.

btw, I'm not stating they can't. It's really not that hard. I just have yet to see it in that series of vids and you would think that's the final stage of true 'progression'.

Edited February 25, 2018 by SolRosenburg

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

2 minutes ago, SolRosenburg said:

As a training tool, I think it's questionable.

However, i see the riders in that serious of videos regularly doing it and not necessarily part of a "progression" demonstration. In fact, I've yet to see anyone in that series "getting low" without using their arm as a complete crutch. I just think it's their style (so be it), however I view it as a crutch.

If the purpose is to get low, and stylie, then you should have the skill to get low and stylie without the need for your arm "crutch" to keep you up and keep you from falling. I know what you are saying about progression, but I've seen enough vids in that series to think it's more than just a demonstration. Show me an example of one of those riders blasting a toeside, getting low, without completely resting on their arm? Their audio states that's not the case, but the videos seem to tell a different story.

I think the onus might be on you to EC without putting your arm or hand down.

Vid, or it didn’t happen!

SolRosenburg · February 25, 2018

You're missing the point little buddy. Arm or hand "down" is completely different than completely resting on your arm or hand. If that's what you are into and you need the crutch, cool! The vids clearly have helped you and that's fantastic!

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

17 minutes ago, SolRosenburg said:

You're missing the point little buddy. Arm or hand "down" is completely different than completely resting on your arm or hand. If that's what you are into and you need the crutch, cool! The vids clearly have helped you and that's fantastic!

They’re not completely resting on their forearms in the higher end turns they’re demonstrating.

I don’t think you’re seeing what you think you are. When I look, I see a big difference between the amount of weight supported during the slow speed stuff and what’s being borne (or not) by the arm in the expert demo.

Also, don’t forget what you’re looking at. It’s a progression for an EC type turn. By definition, you drag your shit on the snow when you do one of those. If you want another MTB reference, it would be like getting upset that a person didn’t have enough “pop” off the lip of a jump, while giving a demo on how to scrub.

I get it... You can do a wicked-“proper” carved turn with little or no contact. This is not that turn.

Sincerely;

Your Little Buddy.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rob Stevens

SolRosenburg · February 25, 2018

Thanks lil Buddy! I agree to agree that you are wrong. Ha!

I see the vids. I see LOTS of resting on their arms. Slow speed, high speed, demonstrations, yada yada. I see it, hell there's video proof. Maybe there was something wrong with their gopros that created distorted pixels that make them rest on their arms? could be.

Lastly, been riding since 85' at every level except WC's. Getting low on hero corduroy (like these vids) without using my arm as a complete crutch is a non-issue, daily. If that's hard for you to believe i suggest watching that series of vids again, you may have missed something. Maybe you're running the wrong equipment? It's really not that hard or believable.

Thanks lil buddy. My maiden voyage here amongst the snowboarding yenta's has been exactly what i expected. It's time to log-off and youtube fishing Tackle. The Long Island Sound halibut are spawning.

Rob Stevens · February 25, 2018

Hey OP.

Now that shred veteran / serial doubter Sol has split, you can view the advice in Ryan’s vid without fear of repercussions.

Bye Sol. Damn... he already left.

Getting the full extension on toe side advice

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