Carving symmetry (coaching/tips wanted)

[Corey]

20 hours ago, west carven said:

don't blame your gear.

Who's blaming gear?  I'm trying to improve the stuff between my helmet and my boots.  :) 

SBS: Do that for a few turns and then cross the tracks mid-turn.  I bet THAT gets people talking!  

I found a couple pictures. Excuse the poor lighting: Steep run, low sun at this time of the year up here.  This run is in the shade until March.  The perspective is skewed as I'm on a chair, looking down at an angle, but I think it illustrates my point.  My heelsides (-shaped are sharper at the bottom, my toesides )-shaped are sharper at the top.  

The second picture shows the kink (bottom left edge) that I sometimes get in the toe->heel transition.  I think I'm overcommitting in hurling my body downhill.  

[BobD]

My thoughts from watching the video are that this is a rotary issue. While we generally tend to think of rotary movements in terms of how they would affect our riding in a vertical standing position, rotary movements have far greater effect as the board is inclined. Think of your hip joints and core as a coil spring. Standing with all parts of the body facing forward, the position is neutral with no tension in the springs (waist and hip joints).If you begin a turn with these springs wound up in the direction of the turn, it will have the effect of applying pressure to the forward half of the engaged edge. If you begin a turn with these springs wound up the opposite way, you will increasingly have trouble keeping pressure on the forward half of the board, the further you incline. 

The best example of this are the extreme carving videos from Swoard, and Ru. The body is neutral at transition, but the springs are wound up quickly to start the turn. the wind up is maintained through the turn. If the there were any unwinding of the body in the turn, the nose pressure would be lost.

In the toe side turns I see that you start rotating your body toward the heel side at mid turn. This effectively reduces pressure on the edge at the front of the board, hence you don't continue to turn across the fall line. 

Just my perspective.

[Corey]

Nice observation Bob!  

BTW: I'm going to have so many fresh ideas I think I'll just stick to the bunny hill at ATC.  ;)  

[Rob Stevens]

Make a set of tracks, them come back around and go inside - outside on your heels and outside- inside on your toes. 

Just trying to follow that line should have you laying off the stinger finish of heel side, while maybe getting more of that at the end of your toeside. 

As others said, physiologicallly we're built for doing it as you are, but having a toe turn with as much snap as your heelside is handy as shit. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Erik J, your "Tranny's" ARE your next turn!!  Don't "THINK" behind what the board is already Doing!!    Got it?!?  YOU MOVE, the BOARD reacts. DONE. But, it does occur, front foot first, unless going switch, eh?

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

11 hours ago, GeoffV said:

And this is exactly why we have nicknamed Erik "boing" = "representing the noise of a compressed spring suddenly released"

So, OinGo BoinGo is by now ..endorsed on Porpoise, by EJ , will be part of the new shoe/Hardboot/cologne deal B4 the next ECES?!?  Right?!! Does the Band get any? They're only Lads, but deserve so much More (Including Girls!)by this date!!  Will Bow-Wow-Wow be there Until Tuesday shows up? Or do I need to just lisen to WEQX until Alexa gives the code word??!!

[jtslalom]

I find that in order to really round my turns whether toe or heel side, I have to drive my knees laterally towards the snow while trying to make a "C" shape with my body. I try to create a pinch point at my hips and level my shoulders to the plane of the slope. This task is much easier to do on heelside than it is on toeside. As said above your body tends to fall in this position easier on heelside than on toeside. I used to concentrate on holding my carve for as long as possible, in your case Corey that would be your toeside. I used to think about pressing my toes into the snow as hard as I could while sinking my body into the toeside turn. For me it created a large edge angle between my board and the snow. Eventually I started to carve uphill on every turn on steep slopes. 

[Erik J]

10 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

Erik J, your "Tranny's" ARE your next turn!!  Don't "THINK" behind what the board is already Doing!!    Got it?!?  YOU MOVE, the BOARD reacts. DONE. But, it does occur, front foot first, unless going switch, eh?

 

got it. now stop yelling at me. I'm a delicate flower

 

9 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said:

So, OinGo BoinGo is by now ..endorsed on Porpoise, by EJ , will be part of the new shoe/Hardboot/cologne deal B4 the next ECES?!?  Right?!! Does the Band get any? They're only Lads, but deserve so much More (Including Girls!)by this date!!  Will Bow-Wow-Wow be there Until Tuesday shows up? Or do I need to just lisen to WEQX until Alexa gives the code word??!!

acid flashback?

[softbootsurfer]

an observation  

Size 10 SB at 45 degree angles, 3 strap binding, Carving only angles, with Toes and Heels terminating at the edge, with no boot out, has roughly a 6" difference in edge length at toe and heel sides, the only way I can overcome this difference, is in the timing or length of timing both the pressure, and the amount of pressure or weight I apply, which then can produce a symmetrical pattern of Toe and Heel turns...that pressure on a non asymmetrical board needs to be the same to leave a symmetrical track of equal looking arcs on toe and heel sides...higher angles and HB using more lateral pressure, while different would still require the same pressures, for the same amount of time, on Toe and Heel edges to achieve symmetry of their track, regardless of stance... a question or answer  

also, Pow 8's or groom 8's is a good way to practice for this type of symmetry, a question or answer

I dislike the Rocker on my Land Lord for this reason, the additional edge length on Heelside turns creates a bothersome flutter in the track and damages the constant line symmetry I am after... answer

[Beckmann AG]

On January 28, 2017 at 8:26 PM, softbootsurfer said:

the additional edge length on Heelside turns creates a bothersome flutter in the track and damages the constant line symmetry I am after... answer

This is one of those cases where it's most likely the rider, not the gears. 

If you can find a way to ride without twisting your ride, your line should  clean up nicely.

On the other hand, there's a lot of asymmetry in nature, so maybe just blend in for awhile?

--

Corey,

Maybe  (in general) try to come into your heelside with a little more knee and a little less hip.  If the hip leads, odds are the edge angle is constantly rising right to release, and the straighter front leg holds that load until you ride yourself into a corner. 

Similarly, make sure that on the toeside entry, your shoulders aren't leading your center across the board. (I.e.,try to find one tiny moment of direct top down alignment right as the board goes flat through the transition). If posture is off just enough, the board can 'walk out' from under you on the toeside, opening up the turn radius as it goes.

 

Or not.

[jtslalom]

Softbootsurfer,

I haven't really thought about pressuring my turns different from toe to heel until you mentioned it in your post. I do remember riding asymetrical bords like the Burton pj and Hot logical back in the late 80's and early 90's. I know that those boards compensated for the 6" difference that you talk about in your post. When I went back to symmetric boards I never really thought about riding any differently than I did with the asym boards. I think it just happened naturally. When riding asym boards or symmetric boards I always pressured each edge as hard as I could depending on conditions. Today I do the same. I find that if I want to really round my turns I pressure the edge as long as I can until I am turning up hill. I think that most riders will try to get away with pressuring the edge only as needed not to slide a turn. If a rider rides blue and green trails alot, I think they get used to pressuring as needed for the pitch of those slopes. Usually it is not much, however when they get to steeper slopes that aren't that wide the same pressure on blues and greens will not do. Here is when I think most people run into trouble. They just aren't used to holding that edge a little longer and then quickly going into transition and starting the next turn. I think that if riders really practiced this routine they would find it quite easy to round turns. I guess it comes down to having the right terrain and snow conditions to practice on.

Jt 

[softbootsurfer]

the Flutter only comes on certain pitches because of angulation and the Kink that Rocker puts into the edge up there...It does not happen and never has happened to me before on any regularly Cambered sticks, the Flutter never shows up on Toeside and will not be getting any more sticks with Rocker, at least for Groom, as I do not like leaving non symmetrical lines...as for Rocker and Pow...the best sticks I have used in the pow were the supermodels...I can eliminate the flutter by changing the radius of the turn on certain pitches, but the Freedom of wandering becomes lost...

[Corey]

14 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Corey,

Maybe  (in general) try to come into your heelside with a little more knee and a little less hip.  If the hip leads, odds are the edge angle is constantly rising right to release, and the straighter front leg holds that load until you ride yourself into a corner. 

Similarly, make sure that on the toeside entry, your shoulders aren't leading your center across the board. (I.e.,try to find one tiny moment of direct top down alignment right as the board goes flat through the transition). If posture is off just enough, the board can 'walk out' from under you on the toeside, opening up the turn radius as it goes.

Can you rephrase?  I think I'm missing something.  Are you speaking of a lateral shift of the knees towards the snow early in the heelside turn?  i.e. roll the femur to point towards the nose?  

I think you're on to something for the toeside turn.  I've never considered body alignment in that transition.  Nice!  

Thank you to everyone for the tips and suggestions!  Due to illness, I haven't been able to ride since starting this thread.  Day one of ATC will have me trying a number of different things and observing the effect.  

[jtslalom]

I have to admit. The Burton super model is just that. A super model. One of the best all around free ride boards. 

Quote

softbootsurfer: the best sticks I have used in the pow were the supermodels

 

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

Can you rephrase?  I think I'm missing something.  Are you speaking of a lateral shift of the knees towards the snow early in the heelside turn?  i.e. roll the femur to point towards the nose?  

The aim is twofold. Avoid a straight front leg, and resist the temptation to project one's heelside hip section too far ahead of center on turn entry. 

Given that it's not physically possible to move the knee medial/lateral when the leg is straight, tasking that knee with a slight roll to heelside, in the direction of the edge tilt, should ensure some flexion; said flexion should keep your center more centered on the length of the board.

End product should be a more versatile posture toward the last third of the heelside turn, from which you might better modulate both edge angle and fore/aft pressure distribution.

12 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

the Flutter only comes on certain pitches because of angulation and the Kink that Rocker puts into the edge up there...It does not happen and never has happened to me before on any regularly Cambered sticks,

Board decamber/rocker kills feedback at the start of the turn. By the time you realize you're creating dissonance underfoot, the turn is too far along and it's too late to reduce the inputs that lead to flutter.

It doesn't happen on the toeside, in part because it's much harder to accidentally twist the front half of the board on toeside turn entry than it is to the heelside.

If you graft a tennis ball onto the working end of a blind man's cane, he'll still get around, but with less dexterity.

 

[softbootsurfer]

1st 3 tracks this morning, the fludder in the middle 

 

[Corey]

 

So, how did this work out? I focused on a lot of things, and the biggest factor was indeed fore-aft weight shifts. I started forward on toeside turns and fed the board forward under me. I started towards the middle on heelsides and fed the board rearwards, giving that hook at the end. 

Being more conscious of fore-aft weighting allowed me to change turn radius at will. I knew this at some level, but focusing on it while riding really helped to drive the skill home. 

Talk about a lifelong pursuit: Learn something new, forget a basic skill that I worked hard to get. Lather, rinse, repeat. 

A video from yesterday, maybe it shows a difference? 

 

 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Corey, that's SMMOOOTTHH!!  

[west carven]

howdy cory

sorry, but that is a cruiser run that anybody can look good on while thinking what's for dinner tonight.

is there a steeper run where your struggling abit...

[Beckmann AG]

12 hours ago, corey_dyck said:

I started forward on toeside turns and fed the board forward under me. I started towards the middle on heelsides and fed the board rearwards, giving that hook at the end. 

 

Thanks for the update.

For the sake of clarity and posterity, is the quoted what you are doing now, and to good effect, or what you were doing in the past, leaving the odd tracks?

[Corey]

7 hours ago, west carven said:

is there a steeper run where your struggling abit...

Yes, but it's a 5 hour drive away. Maybe this weekend...

[Corey]

6 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

For the sake of clarity and posterity, is the quoted what you are doing now, and to good effect, or what you were doing in the past, leaving the odd tracks?

That's what I was doing. Now I'm more cognizant of fore-aft weighting.