softbootsurfer Posted January 15, 2017 Report Share Posted January 15, 2017 (edited) Jeff Grell...the Highback wizard for SB What does it do? the Heelside turn is not from the Heel but rather the calf area, right ? otherwise what is the purpose for a Highback at all? if it is just Heel Toe than a Highback is not needed at all...the ankle when using a Highback, has flex only forward Right? so then they locked the high back and added a top strap...that was a SB set up that when set at alpine angles mimicked HB...Cool...then Skateboarding and Duck stances came along and the Locked Highback with top strap disappeared because the Kids could not Tweak their Sticks with it...so the question, Why was the Highback kept at all ? Edited January 15, 2017 by softbootsailer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowboardingJ Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 in short: forward lean, heel side turn, duck stance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 I would assume one of the No Board folks would understand the question... you don't need a highback riding duck to do heelside turns...in fact it is restricting to ankle flex on the heelside turn, unless you are not using your ankle but rather your calf area to apply pressure to the edge...there were no Highbacks on my skateboards or surfboards either...though I do recall Lange making some Ice Skates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) For last few years there was a trend for much smaller highbacks (lowbacks?). Some people even removed theirs... Anyways, while its doable without, due to the smaller size/strength of foot flexor muscles (compared to the calves), the help from the highbacks is welcome. If one does it only by pressuring the highbacks, it's a wrong and limited approach. Even in racing, the trend is more towards toe/heel presure, rather then just driving the boot cuffs. Technical discussion aside, I've got a sneaky feeling this thread is actually about something else... Edited January 17, 2017 by BlueB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 It's nothing new, Burton had lowback bindings in the 90s. As well as baseless bindings. Silly fads. SBS, why don't you remove your highbacks for a whirl and get back to us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 On January 14, 2017 at 7:47 PM, softbootsailer said: Why was the Highback kept at all ? To more swiftly deplete the Global Strategic Plastic Reserves (GSPR). Yes, it's a thing. And in a similar vein, one can find a Northwave .950 sample at Svalbard. 5 hours ago, softbootsailer said: I would assume one of the No Board folks would understand the question... Perhaps you could ask the question of the No Board forum, or rephrase the question for the population at hand. Might be worth it, as, from the look of things, you're a bit confused on the concept? ...Unless you're merely seeking affirmation of your most particular POV? 4 hours ago, BlueB said: I've got a sneaky feeling this thread is actually about something else... Ya think? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 You don't need to be a noboarder to know that highbacks are not really needed when riding the poudreses. The whole base is supported, from the heelside, to the toeside. As for why you need it on hardpack, B summed it up well. I do like Jack's idea of going out for a day with them off. The quickly-fried TA muscle on the front of your shins (esp. the front one) should be answer enough. Not to say people don't do it... I have a board set up that way, but it never sees hard snow. Some people do ride all conditions without them, but these guys can dorsal flex with TA's as big as their calves. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Thanks for the thoughts, was thinking for Carving they are needed for support, but for trix and Pow not so much...was talking to someone about a Clicker system with a low profile hiking shoe the other day, they thought that would be fun to try... Thanks Again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowboardingJ Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 "there were no Highbacks on my skateboards or surfboards either " in terms of skateboards or surfboards or riding in powder, the pivot point is inside the board. T=RxF - Torque equal distance times force Skateboard, at the bushing - any downward pressure (force) outside the bushing, one is apply torque to tilt the board at the pivot point (the bushing). The distance would be from the heel to the bushing. If the bushing is made out of metal and is as wide as the board, with no heel overhang, one can apply all the force within the board width and the board will not tilt. R - the distance becomes infinity. same thing apply to surfboard and powder, given the board's below surface is the same hardness, any weight or pressure away from the center line of the board (pivot point) one is applying torque at the center line of the board. Given the surface is soft, the board will tilt and one can push and apply pressure to the base of the board instead of relying on the edge to turn. The distance would be from the heel to the center line of the board given the below hardness are even. On snowboard with hardpack, the pivot point is at the edge of the snowboard. Without any overhang or a binding interface, one can apply all pressure inside the board and the board would not be on edge, because now R becomes infinity. With a binding interface, yes, one can apply force by lifting the toe with ankle muscle. However, a greater force can be applied by a highback and a fixed forward lean with thigh muscle. Trying to lift the same squad weight with the little ankle muscle may be just too much to ask for our ankles. My personal opinion is that ankle movement for fine adjustment of edge pressure is appropriate, trying to endure all the force of a turn and every turn might be too much to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnowboardingJ Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Reread my post, correction, R becomes 0, not infinity. Meaning one is applying no torque at the pivot point. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Donnelly Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 Had to Google Jeff Grell . . . http://snowboarding.transworld.net/uncategorized/jeff-grell-lands-patent-on-highback/#QDI0lcJ7GQp0houG.97 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted January 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 We were thinking a used K2 Clicker and Boot system where you cut off the boot above the sole and then have a cobbler attach a low profile boot...Phil Powder Monster got me thinking about highbacks and no board attachment in another thread...at least for Tricks and Pow, could be fun for Kids... and Pat, I remember seeing Grell and one other during the two week trial of snowboarding at Highlands 83/84 when the bindings were for water skis after two weeks, their insurance company said "get those guys out of here" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Just ride a snowdeck, you'll figure it out quick! BTW, when Chris Karol put those 'Suicide Straps' on a Backhill ('82), it did really change how the board handled on hardpack. Those were simply the 'rear' gummy-rubber strap, but now mounted to hold your heel into the 'holster' front binding. That's why the '83 Performer came with the fastex strap (my Performer Experimental actually didn't come with those web straps, I had to go to Londonderry and get mine!). The Grell horseshoe binding arrived (with Sims) on the scene in '83-'84, and highbacks were added mid '84. But, Flite had a very similar binding before that. Chuck Barfoot's version was made entirely of a softer plastic, and it Flexed, a lot, but at least was comfy (in Kamik/Sorels or Timberlands). The added leverage does help, it does work, but it's a matter of degrees of control. Even in hardboots, simply Lifting your Toes still amplifies edge engagement, so.... Edited January 19, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Also, this, not that it matters Here; You'll certainly find a flaw? Yah, someone will... On 10/28/2015 PSR wrote in from United States (65.96.xxx.xxx) It's been awhile since I got a call from Gilmore, at night.. But, I do recall one conversation we had, him on the hill somewhere near Boston, me cooking dinner in Perkinsville. He had this problem, riding softboots, where he was skipping out of his carves. What I told him to do, after going thru a quick checklist of 'how+when' as well as "what are U on", was adjust his highbacks, asymmetrically. After his first call, he adjusted his highbacks, called me back, amazed at the 'remote' fix! (you're welcome, JG!) In binding angles above 15*, the front heel edge pressure gets a bit miss-placedtoo far aft. In the old days, when three-strappers, and locked highbacks were the norm, all you had to do was make the front top-strap more snug than the rear. Easy. But with more modern bindings, the highbacks are made to deflect energy, not direct it. They're also made to work mostly with a "duck", low angle stance. So, how can you get these things to work at higher angles, and get some chatter-free carves? Well, first, pick a stiff binding. Be sure it's well padded underfoot, with a lifting Toe-ramp.Stay away from a 'baseless' platform as well. Secondly, if possible, get a wrap-around or 'Winged' highback. Both Burton and TechNine offer highbacks like this currently. Note the range of forward lean adjustment, too. You'll want to use two different angles, with the rear up to +12 more lean in adjustment available. Thirdly, check and see if the hinge-points can be moved to 'rotate' the highback around the 'horse-shoe', letting you run a higher stance angle while keeping the highback close to parallel to the board's edge. This is important if you ride angles up past the 21* mark, as otherwise, your leg-pressure going into a heelside turn will always be Behind your hip, making for a bit of a timing mis-cue, and likely an over-pressure in the later part of your arc. So, got those things? Stiff binders, adjustment range in lean, and hopefully the 'winged' highbacks? Good. Now, put the board on (on carpet, and move that glass coffe table outa the way,too!), with your boots, facing a full-length mirror. Make the moves you'd do for medium-deep heelside turn. Note just 'when' each calf engages the highback for tilting in. If the front hits first, then that highback needs to be a bit more 'upright' than the rear. Which one you adjust is up to You, but Don't Make It 'TIPPY', but rather let your legs 'ease' into putting nearly equal tilt inputs, with ability to 'relax' the edging, and, hopefully also still allow fore-aft moves without banging into the highbacks. If your highbacks can adjust in 'rotation' within the 'horseshoe', consider moving the lead hinge-screw forward a few clicks (or hole-set on T-9's), and/or the rear hinge-screw back towards the heel. I tend to do this on the front binding first, as my angles up Front are usually a good 12*-18* more aggressive (yeah, I walk slightly 'duck-footed'), but Everyone is built a bit differently, so you may find that a smaller tweak is all you need here. [Keep in mind, this will feel a bit odd If you ride Fakie at all, as the 'symmetry' is not there anymore going into heelside turns.] The idea here is to let your hip move a bit more further forward Before you get on-edge too hard in deep heelside turns, and also keep the edge pressure more even mid-carve between your feet. Note that too much forward lean at the rear binding will make for a tendency to wash-out (or 'Pop' off of) the board's tail late in the turn. Perhaps I should just retire before everything I did comes to ruin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 18 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said: Just ride a snowdeck, you'll figure it out quick! BTW, when Kris Karol put those 'Suicide Straps' on a Backhill ('82), it did really change how the board handled on hardpack. Those were simply the 'rear' gummy-rubber strap, but now mounted to hold your heel into the 'holster' front binding. That's why the '83 Performer came with the fastex strap (my Performer Experimental actually didn't come with those web straps, I had to go to Londonderry and get mine!). The Grell horseshoe binding arrived (with Sims) on the scene in '83-'84, and highbacks were added mid '84. But, Flite had a very similar binding before that. Chuck Barfoot's version was made entirely of a softer plastic, and it Flexed, a lot, but at least was comfy (in Kamik/Sorels or Timberlands). The added leverage does help, it does work, but it's a matter of degrees of control. Even in hardboots, simply Lifting your Toes still amplifies edge engagement, so.... I went for the Powdergun instead of the Performer back in '83. Those heelstraps you are talking about are what actually allowed me to experience my first carved turns in soft groomers. Instead of using them around the heels, I made them go way higher in the back of my leg. I sewed a loop in the back of my boots to make them stay up there, and pass them through it before buckling them. Also added some velcro on the straps, as the added pressure from being that high during heelside turns made them come loose (loss of "forward lean"). I made my very own hibacks before even knowing what they were. Switching to the Performer Elite after that was the worst move I have ever made in my 37 years of riding. It was like going back to zero. Worst board and bindings I have ever owned. Couldn't make it work for me. Also, it is funny how Louis "Lofo" Fournier is always removed from the hiback history... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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