Thermoflex liners too soft?

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

You know, you would probably get more people to listen if you weren't so rude, insulting and condescending about it. 

Neil,

That's rather amusing.

The lengthy response was intended for riders like Aracan, and not those already 'set' in their knowledge. 

You and I and anyone else in the room know that West has the capacity to read and understand the content.

He chose to be dismissive, as is his wont. 

 

Under those circumstances, the ‘finger paint’ comment seemed appropriate, but in retrospect I could have taken a different path.

It appears he will be ignoring me in the future, which should reduce the aggravation.

 

I”m ‘happy’ to share what I’ve learned over the years, and I know there are still a few out there looking for that information, but I don’t need more to ‘listen’. 

Composing and posting accurate content takes time and effort, both of which should probably be devoted to other pursuits, particularly when others choose to argue based on perception, not merit.

 

Meanwhile, if anyone happened to see my missing copy of NIrvana’s Nevermind floating around on this thread, the message was the title, not the image. I had a technical issue involving an empty dialogue box, and I meant for that glitch to be disregarded. Thus, "nevermind".

 

I can see how that might have been misconstrued. Apologies to the affected.

[Aracan]

Quote

Perhaps the most important part of the process is finding a shell that very closely matches the entire contour of your foot, and to lesser extent, lower leg. That's rather difficult when you have only two choices.

Three choices, counting the two different Raichle/Deeluxe shells. However, having been through all three (and Head/Blax) I think the UPZs already are the best match for me, especially better than the SB shell (*shudder*).

[Erik J]

Thank you Beckmann for contributing your knowledge and time to this site. 

I've made great improvements in riding comfort / efficiency (i.e. I'm having more fun) by dropping a shell size and going with intuition liners (along with custom footbeds). I only came to these ideas by reading them here on BOL. I still have a lot to learn and most of that will likely come from reading about what others are doing / suggesting - so another thank you to the experienced ones. 

 

[AcousticBoarder]

2 hours ago, Erik J said:

Thank you Beckmann for contributing your knowledge and time to this site. 

I've made great improvements in riding comfort / efficiency (i.e. I'm having more fun) by dropping a shell size and going with intuition liners (along with custom footbeds). I only came to these ideas by reading them here on BOL. I still have a lot to learn and most of that will likely come from reading about what others are doing / suggesting - so another thank you to the experienced ones. 

 

Agreed, I doubt I would be where I am without knowledge provided by Mr Beckmann. That being said, I do find it unfortunate to sift through what often comes with it, and from my point of view, has brought any ramifications in this thread upon himself..

 

Back on topic though, I have a similar question to the OP. I often have extremely cold feet when riding, and by the end of last season I believe I have found the culprit. I have high volume feet, so the bridge/ over the arch of my foot is high and needs more space than I have. I ride UPZ boots because my heel is also very narrow and I would get heel lift in other boots, which the UPZs have eliminated, however they do not have lots of volume over the bridge. Custom footbed helped but did not eliminate the problem. I purchased UPZ FLOW thin tongues at the end of last season when they were on sale, but I have not had much time in them yet. 

Anyone happen to have experienced a similar issue? I am debating if I just go and get some Intuition Pro Wraps which have a thin bottom and thus more room than the Power Wraps, plus the custom molded liner I would think should be more precise than stock. How does this compare to the FLOs in stiffness though? What if I order a red tongue for the boots too, would that counter the stiffer liner? The other thought would be to get springs for them.

[michael.a]

23 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy

so are Thermoflex liners too soft?... you lost me at "On the topic of..."

Depends. Im sure someone is more knowledgeable about this than me, but the late Raichle/early Deeluxe TFs had two versions, the ones with a red cuff were soft and the all grey stiff. Then Deeluxe updated the liner and introduced that all black with the cross hatch pattern, I think those were quite soft. Then they came out with a black model with a fuzz inside, also soft. Recently they introduced a stiffer liner with no fuzz typical foam build. 

 

edit: so I took the bait, I thought west carvens post was ingenuous. nonetheless i hope i helped someone out with the difficulties in nailing down a liner that works for you

Edited October 18, 2016 by michael.a

[Bobby Buggs]

You guys need to get out and ride and stop talking about Nothing, wtf

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

Agreed, I doubt I would be where I am without knowledge provided by Mr Beckmann. That being said, I do find it unfortunate to sift through what often comes with it, and from my point of view, has brought any ramifications in this thread upon himself..

 

Back on topic though, I have a similar question to the OP. I often have extremely cold feet when riding, and by the end of last season I believe I have found the culprit. I have high volume feet, so the bridge/ over the arch of my foot is high and needs more space than I have. I ride UPZ boots because my heel is also very narrow and I would get heel lift in other boots, which the UPZs have eliminated, however they do not have lots of volume over the bridge. Custom footbed helped but did not eliminate the problem. I purchased UPZ FLOW thin tongues at the end of last season when they were on sale, but I have not had much time in them yet. 

Anyone happen to have experienced a similar issue? I am debating if I just go and get some Intuition Pro Wraps which have a thin bottom and thus more room than the Power Wraps, plus the custom molded liner I would think should be more precise than stock. How does this compare to the FLOs in stiffness though? What if I order a red tongue for the boots too, would that counter the stiffer liner? The other thought would be to get springs for them.

1.Glad I could help. 2. It's fortunate I don't have to write to earn my keep. 3. In many circumstances, your POV is influenced in part by what you cannot see.

 

Some have a high instep (bridge), others have a bony nub atop the instep. Either way, you have a contour mismatch at the 'roof' of the boot shell. 

The mechanism:  

"In a healthy subject, toes go numb due to lack of circulation.  Lack of circulation comes from two primary sources: Either there is localized pressure on the skin preventing capillary refill, or the flow to the toes has been affected by a contour mismatch over the instep. Truly excessive ramp can flush the blood out of the forefoot as well.  Various medical conditions, such as diabetes and Reynaud’s Syndrome, will affect circulation and thus warmth. Vasoconstrictors such as caffeine and common antihistimines may also play a part."

A solution:

"Instep clearance can be gained by thinning the plastic shell of the tongue, and by removing some of the ‘extra’ largely cosmetic layers of the liner in that area.  Some liners are more suited than others to cutting."

This is easier than trying to heat and press the shell. Depending on the liner construction, installing a 'skylight' in the tongue is usually the most expedient solution.

For a component liner, remove material on the side of the tongue furthest from the foot. On a moldable liner, you can spot heat and then clamp the area to compress the foam, and if necessary, thin that area with a grinder. (Moldable liners don't really flow, they 'squish'). Again, on the side furthest from the foot.

Going with a thinner-soled liner may help in the short term, but you haven't addressed the contour issue. Eventually, the liner will break down, you'll buckle the boot a little tighter, and your toes will again get cold.

Prior to surgery, wear the boot indoors until you feel tingling. Pull your foot from the sock, look for the big red blotch on the top of the foot, then mark that area on the liner.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Beckmann AG
Scalene

[Beckmann AG]

10 hours ago, Erik J said:

Thank you Beckmann for contributing your knowledge and time to this site. 

You're welcome. Have been keeping an eye peeled for your traditional witty comments.

[Beckmann AG]

10 hours ago, Aracan said:

Three choices,

You're right, my mistake. Both DeeLuxe options offer similar contouring in the ankle pocket, so I tend to lump them together.

[AcousticBoarder]

8 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

1.Glad I could help. 2. So it's good I don't have to write to earn my keep. 3. Your POV is influenced in part by what you cannot see.

 

Some have a high instep (bridge), others have a bony nub atop the instep. Either way, you have a contour mismatch at the 'roof' of the boot shell. 

The mechanism:  

"In a healthy subject, toes go numb due to lack of circulation.  Lack of circulation comes from two primary sources: Either there is localized pressure on the skin preventing capillary refill, or the flow to the toes has been affected by a contour mismatch over the instep. Truly excessive ramp can flush the blood out of the forefoot as well.  Various medical conditions, such as diabetes and Reynaud’s Syndrome, will affect circulation and thus warmth. Vasoconstrictors such as caffeine and common antihistimines may also play a part."

A solution:

"Instep clearance can be gained by thinning the plastic shell of the tongue, and by removing some of the ‘extra’ largely cosmetic layers of the liner in that area.  Some liners are more suited than others to cutting."

This is easier than trying to heat and press the shell. Depending on the liner construction, installing a 'skylight' in the tongue is usually the most expedient solution.

For a component liner, remove material on the side of the tongue furthest from the foot. On a moldable liner, you can spot heat and then clamp the area to compress the foam, and if necessary, thin that area with a grinder. (Moldable liners don't really flow, they 'squish'). Again, on the side furthest from the foot.

Going with a thinner-soled liner may help in the short term, but you haven't addressed the contour issue. Eventually, the liner will break down, you'll buckle the boot a little tighter, and your toes will again get cold.

Prior to surgery, wear the boot indoors until you feel tingling. Pull your foot from the sock, look for the big red blotch on the top of the foot, then mark that area on the liner.

Thanks, I see what you mean by the contour. I have know for a while that I had pressure on the top of my foot as I did the process of taking off the boot and marking the red area, for whatever reason I just did not put 2 and 2 together. The first boot fitter I went to had the first recommendation of custom foot-beds (which I was already on board with and wanted) so we did that and it made a tremendous difference. I am remembering now too that the spot in question which had the red pressure points was where the FLO liner tongue and bottom meet, around the elastic/Velcro area, though I do not remember for certain which side of the foot. Adjusting the tongue placement did not help that particular issue much. I will have to red mark again to find the exact spot and see if the thin tongue helps at all, though I am a bit doubtful now. It will still be good though to know where that spot is so as to clamp down on the heat molded liner if I end up going that route.

UPZ also finally has the rest of the 2016 parts in I wanted to upgrade to, so I will be doing some modding to my boots anyhow and could thin the boot tongues. I will wait until I can mod the boots before I do much more encase it changes anything. I did put a call into the boot fitter to get a liner in stock in my size so I am ready to get fit if the other options don't work out.

[Erik J]

12 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

You're welcome. Have been keeping an eye peeled for your traditional witty comments.

Grandpa used to say "if you don't have anything nice to say then shut your fu$%#! mouth or I'll beat you bi$%a @ss into the ground" 

Grandpa was an angry man

[Willow 15]

Zipfit liners. They are superb.

[Bobby Buggs]

Im going to evaluate those Zip fits this season

[Willow 15]

I'm using 275 Grand Prix liner in a 27-27.5 425 shell. I've used them for a week in the 425's but also used them in UPZ's and Full Tilt's. They work great in all shells and the performance/comfort ratio is very good.