barryj Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 In a late night sleep deprived stupor , while moving my front binding back to it's forward position (I had pulled it back to ride the 14 inches of POW we got Tues this week at Kirkwood!) I had a brain fart and rotated my front foot lift disk to match my rear foot (I usually ride the norm 3 degree toe lift on the front and 6 degree heel lift on the back).... So fast forward to today, I get into the lift line and step in to my front foot binding and can imediately feel something is differant......I'm jacked up on my heel on the front foot!! Well I was already there towards the front of the lift, ready to load, so I figured I would ride it back down right to the lodge and save the walking back at that moment. OK...so I get off the lift, click in the rear and take off.........first toe side just drops in like normal, but the first Heel side Was On a Rail!!! I never felt that locked in on my Heel sides! So I keep charging and my heel sides keep getting tighter and smaller!! OMG It's a huge differance and with no loss to my toe side.! I stayed an extra 2 hours just cause it was so much fun hucking heelsides! Never would I have thought to try 3 degree heel lift on the front! We only got one more weekend of lift service here at Alpine (Squaw is done tomorrow, the 21st) next week and it's over....but you nkow where I will be!!! I should have more stupors!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Wondering what snow conditions were like on the day you discovered you were invincable:biggthump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted April 21, 2013 Report Share Posted April 21, 2013 Hello I haven't tried heel life on both feet, but I have experimented quite a bit with Toe Lift on both feet. My testing revolved around using hard boots with a powder board in powder deep enough that you are truly floating, not hitting a solid bottom of a groomed run. My thinking was based on the fact that hard boots have quite a bit of heel lift inside the boot itself. When I take the inside (lets' call this 'sole ramps' for this discussion) out of my boots you can see that hard boots have a lot of heel lift built into them. So, when riding your bindings flat, no cants or lifts on your board, you are actually riding with heel lift on both feet! What I found for my personal board and stance set up on the powder board that I was using at the time was that I kept on having to strain my leg front leg (huge thigh burn) to stop the nose from diving. I decided to experiment with a lot of variables, one of them being toe lift on both feet, with the idea being that I wanted less of a 'sole ramp' in my boots. Essentially I wanted my feet to be more flat on the board, like a soft boot set up. It WORKED great!! It would seem that having such a big heel lift on your front foot has shifted your weight forwards which has helped your heel side turn. Interesting .... maybe try 3 degrees HEEL lift front and back to see what happens? This would be like riding bindings flat on your board with hard boots that have a much bigger 'sole ramp.' Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 I do have the new fintecs and they are a little higher than the stock rubber heels in the Deluxe.....is that sole ramp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Hi I do have the new fintecs and they are a little higher than the stock rubber heels in the Deluxe.....is that sole ramp? No, not the heel part... I am talking about the inside of the boot. I am not sure what the correct name of the boot is, so I called it a 'sole ramp.' I am talking ONLY about the inside of the boot where the sole of your foot touches the bottom/inside of the boot. All hard boots, when just stanting on flat ground, have build in heel lift. On the boots that I have, when you pull out the insole, the heel is an inch or more high and the toe is maybe and 1/8 of an inch. This wedge shape is what I think is called a ramp or toe ramp, but I am not 100% sure. Regardless, your heel is high than your toes in hardboots when standing on flat ground creating heel lift on both feet. Hope that makes sense. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 If you enjoyed the heel lift on the front binding and no quad burn from doing it, it probably means that your front boot is set to upright (cuff lean), or the stance is to narrow, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted April 22, 2013 Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Hi If you enjoyed the heel lift on the front binding and no quad burn from doing it, it probably means that your front boot is set to upright (cuff lean), or the stance is to narrow, or both. Good point! As I mentioned there are a lot of variables to experiment with. I my case I spent literally months dialing in my boots, with a not so easily adjustable spring system, (cuff lean) for my alpine board; making it very difficult to change the cuff lean for hard boot powder riding. As a result I did not want to change settings that took so long to dial in with regards to the springs/cuff lean when switching from board to board (powder to alpine). I also didn't want to drag multiple pairs of boots to the slopes. This lead to many, many stance tests for powder with hard boots .... as I often can't help myself! In really great powder I am a soft booter now, but still love plates in chop up crud. Yup, I now drag multiple pairs of boots to the hill! From your first post I think I assumed you were using plates in powder, was this correct? Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2013 Yep, Plates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Blue, I got my BTS with yellow cranked down about half way. My stance is 17.5 on my all mountain and 19.5 on the Virus. Stance angles are 65/60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floBoot Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 *"I never felt that locked in on my Heel sides!" Wow, that does sound like fun:D...all these things I've yet to experience...I look forward to it:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gtanner Posted April 24, 2013 Report Share Posted April 24, 2013 Blue,I got my BTS with yellow cranked down about half way. My stance is 17.5 on my all mountain and 19.5 on the Virus. Stance angles are 65/60 Ok a couple of thoughts here. - With the BTS cranked down, if I understand correctly, that will create forward cuff-lean. When you stand in your boots (not cliped in, nor adding full flex), your knees shouldn't extend past your toes by much. - 17.5 is super-narrow, so unless you have a <28" inseam, that just seems too tight. - 19.5 is what I ride (~32" inseam) - I assume 65/60 is on a narrow Virus? If not, your feet must be huge. Do you keep the same angles board-to-board? Normally, your angles should change with board waist width so that you minimize toe over/under-hang, thereby maximizing pressure on the edge. So here's my theory (and I'm making some assumptions here); You were riding the AM still on the Tuesday, but with significant under-hang due to running 65/60 on an AM waist board (guessing 20-22cm waist and mondo 26-28 feet). 17.5cm is also quite narrow (as previously mentioned). By adding the heel lift to your front binding, it allows you to make less of a body shift to the heel side when making a turn. This effectively keeps your center of gravity closer to the middle of the board (not necessarily a bad thing). It will also force your upper body to stay more up-right thereby keeping your shoulders in parallel with the snow surface. I'm guessing that normally, you dip your outside shoulder into the snow on heelsides (left shoulder if regular footed). Hence the issue with sketchy heel sides since dropping your shoulder pulls your center of gravity too far away from the engaged edge. There are plenty of threads on this topic, and it shows that solid racers, freecarvers, ECers all keep their center of gravity and load keyed on the engaged edge. The key point here is to get your gear dialed in, but not have that equipment mask a technique flaw. I hope this makes a bit of sense. Either way its great you felt the rail and loved it so much (so addictive!). -Gord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 My testing revolved around using hard boots with a powder board in powder deep enough that you are truly floating, not hitting a solid bottom of a groomed run. Rob, what on earth does your test have to do with carving an alpine board on groomed snow? To barryj, I think you have stumbled upon a cheap and quick remedy to some deep, deep technique and setup problems. I would advise you to seek professional, private lessons in person and/or ride with an expert carver. Dual heel lift (or dual toe lift) is not advisable. But what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RCrobar Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) Hi Jack Rob, what on earth does your test have to do with carving an alpine board on groomed snow? Nothing at all. If I read the original post correctly I 'thought' the original posters question was a powder question (14cm of snow was mentioned), then the thread developed ... so I am not really sure anymore? My testing comments had zero to do with carving on hardpack. Dual heel lift (or dual toe lift) is not advisable. Hey, I was NOT recommending anything here! A guy posts that he tried, by accident, double heel lift. Next another guy post that years ago he tried double toe lift ... that's it! Just discussing and kicking ideas around, like I think a forum is meant to do? But what do I know? Cheers Rob Edited April 25, 2013 by RCrobar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to Mammoth this weekend to see how this plays out. I would love to ride with somebody, anybody for some advice! Here's the 17.5 stance Here's the 19.5 stance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Here's what 20 inch stance looks like with current bindings.....(I took off the bombers as I just couldn't get the TD3's to feel right on this board) Also I use strong Gilmour Bais Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 As Gord said - tons of underhang on that Virus. But I remember those boards, you were trolling us already with the stance lengths... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 As Gord said - tons of underhang on that Virus. But I remember those boards, you were trolling us already with the stance lengths... Something seems odd about all this? I hope we are not getting yanked around? Please tell me you are genuine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hi JackNothing at all. If I read the original post correctly I 'thought' the original posters question was a powder question (14cm of snow was mentioned), then the thread developed ... so I am not really sure anymore? My testing comments had zero to do with carving on hardpack. read it again, he is talking about resetting his bindings back to a carving stance AFTER a powder day. Hey, I was NOT recommending anything here! As you can see, I was not addressing you there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowmatic Posted April 25, 2013 Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Anybody Else Running Heel Lift on Front and Rear Foot?? Yes, everyone on Nortwave Point Series and UPZ's are on a heel lift on front and rear foot. These boots moves riders to a more to the board nose position. Compared to Deeluxe / Raichle SB boots (325), Nortwaves have a marked heellift. The amount is about someting between 2 piece of orginal F2 bindings shift-cants and the half of a orginal F2 bindings heel-lift-block. The Deeluxe / Raichle AF boots (700) comes with minor less heel-lift then 325. So you know now the reason, why Swoard riders (Xtreme Carving) recommend to ad no heellift on bindings. They still have it built-in on the Northwave boots. (I don't think the issue of built-in boot heel-lifts has been discused ever !!) Even this little thing, the built in heel-lift - on front boot too, must be one of the main reasons, why Northwaves are that popular on FIS gate races. (Don't tell me, there are significant less shell deformations on Nortwaves compared to Deeluxe-boots, for sure not at a similar stiffness of shell-plastics !!!) Deeluxe/Raichle and I think the Head/Blax too, are closer to an orthopaedic hell-lift. They are like your Nike jogging shoes or like hiking boots. The Nortwave Point Series and the UPZ for sure, are not that orthopaedic related. They are more "high-heels" related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2013 Wow! So I'm not crazy and this might work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 26, 2013 Report Share Posted April 26, 2013 Wow! So I'm not crazy and this might work! No, the point about Northwaves was that they simply have "more" heel lift than Deeluxes, which still have heel lift as well. So technically anyone riding with flat bindings is riding with double heel lift, but that's pretty academic. I've never heard anybody, not even the EC guys, recommend heel lift in the front binding. The need for some amount of heel lift in boots is this. You are supposed to bend your knees while snowboarding or skiing. Thus, ski boots and hardboots have forward lean to make this easier and more comfortable, and so that the boots encourage or at least do not resist a bent-knee posture. The heel lift or foot ramp is built into boots so that you will have more ankle range of motion than if only your cuff had forward lean and your foot was level. Many alpine snowboarders use bindings with toe lift on the front foot and heel lift on the back foot to comfortably allow a wider, more stable stance. This is a very simple concept of geometry and anatomy. Look at Vitruvian Man and you'll see why. There is no rocket science to it. If you mistakenly ended up with heel lift in both your bindings and it felt good, that should tell you that your technique is too straight-legged, or your stance is too narrow, or likely both. It's a band-aid. I recommend turning your disk the right way around, and working on your technique now that you have been given the insight from this accidental exercise. How tall are you and what is your inseam? If you can use a 19.5" stance on one board, then 17.5" is surely too narrow on the other. I'm 5'11", 31" inseam, and I like a 20" stance. With toe and heel lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darko714 Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Here's a related question: I'm riding at an intermediate level but I'm still washing out my toe side turns too much. Could there be a barryj style quick fix for me? I ride two different setups: A Prior 183 WCRM metal top with F2 titanium race bindings set at 55/45, with 3 degree heel lift and 1 degree toe lift, and . . . a Donek 162 Axxis with TD2s set on fat yellow TD3 e-rings set at 50/40 with 6 degree heel and toe lift. I ride 19.5" on both boards and Deeluxe Suzukas with BTS, (mondo 28). My heelsides lock in nicely but my toesides start to wash at the beginning of the turn before I can get the board angled and tighten them up. Sometimes when if I do rail a toe side it takes me by surprise and I have to struggle to stay balanced. There seems to be some real expertise on this thread so . . . any suggestions?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Just yesterday, I had an on-snow symposium with Gtanner, Scooby, Tenorman, Kaz, Cousin and few others. We discussed this issue in depth and decided that from now on we'll all switch to front foot heel lift. :D In order to get accustomed to this double heel lift, wearing the stilletos, when not on snow, is highly recommended. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 Just add 6 degree of toe lift on the back foot and you are all set!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darko714 Posted April 30, 2013 Report Share Posted April 30, 2013 (edited) Just add 6 degree of toe lift on the back foot and you are all set!!! That's what I was thinking. Too bad I have to wait until next season to try it.;) Edited April 30, 2013 by www.oldsnowboards.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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