glenn Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 O.k. all you techies...Rode my new Coiler today for the first time. It's a 170 Nirvana, 11 avg. sidecut, 18.5 cm ww, 27.5 head boots...I'm riding 63 front and 60 back. 3 degrees lift in front and 6 degrees back (Bomber T.D. 2). I've been riding a Prior 173 cm with basically the same specs. except it's a continuous sidecut. No problem with that board. So, the problem seems to be that with this setup, at slow speed, the tail of the board tries to slip right (I'm regular rider). I always seem to be off balance, biased right. Even at moderate speed the same quirk seems to manifest itself. When I'm "on it" at speed and up on edge it seems to perform just fine with no bias either side. Anybody have any suggestions/ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 I'd say tweak a bit more with the angles on the bindings. Any lift or cant at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted January 24, 2013 Report Share Posted January 24, 2013 That's an odd one Glenn! Sorry to hear you're having trouble with the new zen-stick :( Please help me understand - by 'slip right' you mean it makes an unintentional sliding turn? And does this happen on both edges, or only on heel/toe? The only difference I noticed between my Stubby and Nirvana (the Nirvana is the updated Stubby) is that the Nirvana is much more torsionally stiff. If your board behaves like mine, I'm surprised that it wants to do anything other than carve. A good sanity check might be to have someone else ride the board, with their own boots and bindings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Zen thought. What's the board want to do and how are you influencing it. What inserts are your binding set in ? Edges factory 0,0 or beveled or detuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkaholic Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 So you're a regular rider and the tail is sliding to the right, then stop rotating your upper body to the left. Stand in a neutral, relaxed position when not carving and I think your problem will go away. Sounds like you are creating torsion that wants to "unwind". Ink Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I'd say tweak a bit more with the angles on the bindings. Any lift or cant at all? Put some amount of inward cant on rear foot...I'll see if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) That's an odd one Glenn! Sorry to hear you're having trouble with the new zen-stick :(Please help me understand - by 'slip right' you mean it makes an unintentional sliding turn? And does this happen on both edges, or only on heel/toe? The only difference I noticed between my Stubby and Nirvana (the Nirvana is the updated Stubby) is that the Nirvana is much more torsionally stiff. If your board behaves like mine, I'm surprised that it wants to do anything other than carve. A good sanity check might be to have someone else ride the board, with their own boots and bindings. Yep Ian, that's exactly right. The tail wants to slide toward the toe side...It only does it on that side...I have no doubt I'll sort it out. It's just odd that I don't have that issue with the Prior, at all...When I'm on edge, it carves very well. Actually almost makes the turn by itself...But that low speed and mid speed with the board running basically flat...That's when it happens... Edited January 25, 2013 by glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) I ride with the right foot forward, when I feel like my rear edge is hard to get off when going straight on the flats I cant the front foot outward more, then I have to get my body off the board a bit more to engage the edge, make me much more comfortable. Thanks Ursle...I'm trying a different cant on back foot. I'm hoping that'll help... It does seem that if I steer right in an exaggerated way with my left (forward knee) it does help significantly... Edited January 25, 2013 by glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Zen thought. What's the board want to do and how are you influencing it. What inserts are your binding set in ? Edges factory 0,0 or beveled or detuned. The bindings are set back one hole from centered both front and back (that seemed to help quite a bit with edge hold at speed). I'm thinking it's not something I'm doing since the Prior tracs very easily...The edges are 0,0 so that could be an influence I suppose (Prior is 1 degree base and 2 degree side) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) So you're a regular rider and the tail is sliding to the right, then stop rotating your upper body to the left. Stand in a neutral, relaxed position when not carving and I think your problem will go away. Sounds like you are creating torsion that wants to "unwind".Ink[/QUOT Yes, regular rider and tail is sliding right...That was my first thought (that I was rotating upper body) so I consciously tried to relax. Tried to weight forward and back thinking I'd find a sweet spot...Nothing seemed to make much difference...I will take more careful note, next time I ride, if I'm applying rotation... Edited January 25, 2013 by glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 ...But that low speed and mid speed with the board running basically flat...That's when it happens... What? Running flat? Shaped skis and snowboards DO NOT like to run flat on their bases. They are kept stable by rocking slightly but decisively from one edge to the other. Bruce ships his boards with a zero degree base bevel, which means that if you're trying to run it flat the rear edges are very likely to catch in the snow. Then it's just a question of which edge is usually closer to the snow because of your stance. This effect would also be more dramatic on a board that is more torsionally stiff, as your rider input is translated very accurately to the edges. Choose which edge to be on, and maintain a small edge angle at all times. The only time your base should be flat on the snow is when transitioning from one edge to the other, lasting a fraction of a second. As with most technique questions, a short video would be worth its weight in gold here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Shaped skis and snowboards DO NOT like to run flat on their bases. Aside from a little less effective edge on the snow on decambered boards verses old school camber, what makes "shaped skis and snowboards" (I assume you mean modern designs) any different than other designs when running flat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 My VSR behaves the same way under similar conditions. Bobby's VSR does also. Just an inconsequential quirk of the design in my opinion. Take Ian's advice above and stay on one edge or the other, just enough to feel it engage into a very gentle carve. Getting off the lift with one foot out you've got to stay up on the "nose" (not really the nose on a decambered board) and ride the carve where it goes, then change edges to regain your line. Don't tune your set-up for running base flat at slow speeds! ....Unless that's what you plan on spending most of your time doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian M Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Aside from a little less effective edge on the snow on decambered boards verses old school camber, what makes "shaped skis and snowboards" (I assume you mean modern designs) any different than other designs when running flat? Buell, this has always been an issue with all snowboards, as snowboards have always had sidecut. Skis only caught up 10 or 15 years ago, right? If you slide a straight ski flat on it's base, everything is fine. When you slide a shaped ski or snowboard flat on its base, imagine the side-cut as being more dramatic than it is. The snow passes under the tip edges fine, as these edges are 'dragging' in the safe direction (blue arrow shows snow motion). The tail edges are moving 'knife-side' into the snow, so they catch very easily on the snow that is trying to slide under them (red arrow). Tighter radius, less base edge bevel, and higher torsional stiffness all increase the amount that the rear edges will catch if run flat on the base. If your setup is more symmetrical, the tail will oscillate back and forth. If you're pressuring one edge more than the other, the tail will push itself sideways. My Kastle skis are 16m VSR, and at high speeds will shimmy in a very unstable way if I try to stand flat on them. That's not even a tight radius. Try the same thing on slalom skis and you'll fear for your life. Skis are more sensitive to this because of their lower mass, but it is the exact same geometry on snowboards. Edited January 25, 2013 by Ian M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Buell, this has always been an issue with all snowboards, as snowboards have always had sidecut. Skis only caught up 10 or 15 years ago, right? If you slide a straight ski flat on it's base, everything is fine. When you slide a shaped ski or snowboard flat on its base, image the side-cut as being more dramatic than it is. The snow passes under the tip edges fine, as these edges are 'dragging' in the safe direction (blue arrow shows snow motion). The tail edges are moving 'knife-side' into the snow, so they catch very easily on the snow that is trying to slide under them (red arrow).[ATTACH]32968[/ATTACH] My Kastle skis are 16m VSR, and at high speeds will shimmy in a very unstable way if I try to stand flat on them. That's not even a tight radius. Try the same thing on slalom skis and you'll fear for your life. Tighter radius, higher speeds, less base edge bevel, and higher torsional stiffness all increase the amount that the rear edges will catch if run flat on the base. I don't find running flat to be an issue. It is important that you are not twisting the board as you do it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 My VSR behaves the same way under similar conditions. Bobby's VSR does also. Just an inconsequential quirk of the design in my opinion. Take Ian's advice above and stay on one edge or the other, just enough to feel it engage into a very gentle carve. Getting off the lift with one foot out you've got to stay up on the "nose" (not really the nose on a decambered board) and ride the carve where it goes, then change edges to regain your line. Don't tune your set-up for running base flat at slow speeds! ....Unless that's what you plan on spending most of your time doing. Thanks for the help...What I'm feeling is a DRAMATIC tail slide at a speed too slow to carve or get on one edge without falling over. I'll try the "nose" thing and see if that helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) IF in fact you are truly 'flat basing', the board should glide along the path of least resistance without 'spin' tendencies. It does sound like you are imparting a slight twist to the board, and/or you may need to move your bindings fore or aft. Might also want to revisit toe/heel height on your front foot. Whenever I go to an unfamiliar board, I will spend some time riding around one-footed on the flats, to establish a binding mount location whereby the board exhibits 'neutral' behavior with the least effort on my part. Specs aside, you are on a different board. 'Tune' your situation accordingly. Edited January 25, 2013 by Beckmann AG Left the car keys on the kitchen counter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddy Tat Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I don't find running flat to be an issue. It is important that you are not twisting the board as you do it though. What Ian says makes sense. But I also don't have any issues running with my base flat on the snow. I've had to do this a fair bit at Sunshine Village where I normally ride as well. That being said I bevel my base edge on my boards to 1 degree for carving and 3 for AM so perhaps that makes it less catchy. However Glenn is feeling 'slide' not 'catchiness' so I'm leaning towards what Ink said about him unconciously creating rotational tension in his body. This can be an effect of the way he is physically riding, or his stance set-up. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks for the help...What I'm feeling is a DRAMATIC tail slide at a speed too slow to carve or get on one edge without falling over. I'll try the "nose" thing and see if that helps... No such speed. In fact, you can do it standing still.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 Buell, this has always been an issue with all snowboards, as snowboards have always had sidecut. Skis only caught up 10 or 15 years ago, right? If you slide a straight ski flat on it's base, everything is fine. When you slide a shaped ski or snowboard flat on its base, imagine the side-cut as being more dramatic than it is. The snow passes under the tip edges fine, as these edges are 'dragging' in the safe direction (blue arrow shows snow motion). The tail edges are moving 'knife-side' into the snow, so they catch very easily on the snow that is trying to slide under them (red arrow).[ATTACH]32968[/ATTACH] Tighter radius, less base edge bevel, and higher torsional stiffness all increase the amount that the rear edges will catch if run flat on the base. If your setup is more symmetrical, the tail will oscillate back and forth. If you're pressuring one edge more than the other, the tail will push itself sideways. My Kastle skis are 16m VSR, and at high speeds will shimmy in a very unstable way if I try to stand flat on them. That's not even a tight radius. Try the same thing on slalom skis and you'll fear for your life. Skis are more sensitive to this because of their lower mass, but it is the exact same geometry on snowboards. Ian, what I'm experiencing isn't catching an edge. It's a smooth slide but always tail going toe side. I don't have it with the Priors I've owned or with the Donek that I had. I did have something very similar with my first Coiler many years ago and remember having some guys I met at ECES reset my angles/stance/cant and a consequent tune and everything was o.k. Please don't read this in any way to be disparaging of Bruce or Coiler. He makes great equipment. This issue, I don't think, is a design issue. As the title said "set up help." The board I've been riding is a Prior with 18cm ww, 173 length and a 11m scr ( radial, not variable or progressive). It has a decambered nose. It's fairly new tech and not drastically different from the specs of the Coiler. The Coiler almost carves itself and at speed it's very manageable and predictable. No issue with differential toe/tail side performance...That's why I think it's set up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted January 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 IF in fact you are truly 'flat basing', the board should glide along the path of least resistance without 'spin' tendencies. It does sound like you are imparting a slight twist to the board, and/or you may need to move your bindings fore or aft. Might also want to revisit toe/heel height on your front foot. Whenever I go to an unfamiliar board, I will spend some time riding around one-footed on the flats, to establish a binding mount location whereby the board exhibits 'neutral' behavior with the least effort on my part. Specs aside, you are on a different board. 'Tune' your situation accordingly. Aaaah...There's something worth trying...Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dingbat Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 IF in fact you are truly 'flat basing', the board should glide along the path of least resistance without 'spin' tendencies. It does sound like you are imparting a slight twist to the board, and/or you may need to move your bindings fore or aft. Might also want to revisit toe/heel height on your front foot. Whenever I go to an unfamiliar board, I will spend some time riding around one-footed on the flats, to establish a binding mount location whereby the board exhibits 'neutral' behavior with the least effort on my part. Specs aside, you are on a different board. 'Tune' your situation accordingly. Hey Eric, Not entirely sure the Nirvana does the same thing, but have you had a chance to experience the slow speed, base flat, "wobble" some of the VSRs exhibit? It's an entirely different thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroshmero Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 It sounds like your rear foot might be biased too much toward the heel which would weight the heel side edge slightly more and cause a skid toward the toe side. Try adjusting your binding to bias the boot toward the toe side edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 I don't find running flat to be an issue. It is important that you are not twisting the board as you do it though.+1. Standing neutral is the thing for running flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 25, 2013 Report Share Posted January 25, 2013 ^ ^If you 'ghost' the board down the slope, will it still wobble? Unless the board is offered in a 'hook' or 'slice' version, it shouldn't try to pull in either direction when ridden flat, so long as the rider is standing truly neutral (in terms of pressure and tilt inputs) on both axes, and the base of the board is not somehow compromised. Your statement regarding lift unloading suggests that you are not quite 'on the bubble', so to speak. Glenn, have you verified that the base is truly 'in plane' on a reference surface, both at rest, and when weighted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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