F2 race titanium binding breakage.. technique?

[Odd Job]

Hey guys, I was just wondering if the breakage in the newer bindings is due to technique issues possibly?

I was demoing a 185kessler with a kessler plate, with my own kessler race titanium bindings (derived from f2)...

I just bought the bindings yesterday (new).. 2.5 hours of riding. the front binding snaps off, If you take look at my old thread (posted yesterday about durable gear)... I broke a set of f2's I bought used.. 9 ridings days on those.. 1 on the current new ones...

I have been modifying my technique, before I used to use literally little to no side to side knee movement (angles 50/45 on the kessler, 55/50 on prior).. so the heelsides have been more of a... I lock in.. my butt anD edge slides (buttslide heelside), my heelsides are pretty ok? sometimes I bend too much, and my COG goes below the heel, hence I get stuck, it rarely if ever happens now..... the problem is.. I have never.. felt any real "pressure" going down vertically on the edge, no matter how low I got... until I went to the train of thought

1. heelsides, heel is biased backwards, there fore u pressure forward.. sitting on a slope statically, pretending i was in a super low heelside... I realized of course to distribute pressure evenly, I'd have to drive the heck out of my knees?

2. same with toeside...

demoing the kessler, I got down low.. butt rubbing low, with less knee bend... and when the butt did hit, it was more of a "very light grazing" with most of the the pressure being put on the board edge.... great. (so does this mean on ice I don't bend my knees ALLLLLL the way? I mean.. all the way...)

Problem: ever since I've been getting super aggressive, both breakages, have been during heelside carves...I am 5' 9", 230 lbs.... is it the new technique that may be improper? or is it .... my weight?

edit: i only ask this as I remember reading somewhere from bordy, current technique is to stand on heels and pressure the edge that way?

heree we go http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?29138-TD3-Sidewinders-Holy-*-amp-!&p=287209#post287209

[Buell]

Personally, I would not ride F2s at your size. You can get flex out of any binding / boot combo. At my 145 pounds, the F2s are great.

[*Ace*]

Dude just buy some Bombers. F2 seems like a toy next to the TD3. Buy American.

[TLN]

Personally, I would not ride F2s at your size. You can get flex out of any binding / boot combo. At my 145 pounds, the F2s are great.

almost all the extremecarvers in Russia ride F2 Race Ti. Some of riders are 240-260lbs and have no problems with it.

[Hans]

F2 CNC Race.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

almost all the extremecarvers in Russia ride F2 Race Ti. Some of riders are 240-260lbs and have no problems with it.

Perhaps we should be asking them ?

Me? I look at "patterns" , if something keeps happening that is out of the ordinary perhaps there is an issue and change is in order. I know this is what you are doing, this is a good thing.

Keep in mind the history of F2 and Bomber. REMEMBER THE LAWSUIT that had the potential to hurt Bomber Industries.

Do you know why Bomber doesn't sell their products? Perhaps we need to keep this in mind for the sake of Bomber. Just saying.

Buy American, Buy BOMBER, Be happy :)

Disclaimer, I do use them on my powder boards and have not had issues with the Ti step ins.

I have broke the older versions a few times. I don't use them anymore. I am approx. 245lb.

Edited December 3, 2012 by www.oldsnowboards.com

[BlueB]

What did you brake? Bails? Then CNC F2version will not help...

Sounds a bit like a setup, or setup for a particullar technique, issue?

I'm 185lbs 6', aggressive. I ride the flimsy F2 Carve RS for AM/pow/moguls/jumps - potentially more stress then carving, with no problems. I use the newer 5.5mm (or is it 5.9mm?) bails. I did brake old 5mm ones, but they were very old and fatigued by a racer.

To be honnest though, my technique has changed over the years, towards less knee drive.

[Odd Job]

What did you brake? Bails? Then CNC F2version will not help...

Sounds a bit like a setup, or setup for a particullar technique, issue?

I'm 185lbs 6', aggressive. I ride the flimsy F2 Carve RS for AM/pow/moguls/jumps - potentially more stress then carving, with no problems. I use the newer 5.5mm (or is it 5.9mm?) bails. I did brake old 5mm ones, but they were very old and fatigued by a racer.

To be honnest though, my technique has changed over the years, towards less knee drive.

Which technique is better? (more edgehold)

I started breaking them when I started adding knee drive, I am not breaking the bails, but rather the plastic heel piece,.

first one (used), the entire thing broke, ENTIRE thing.

new one (2.5 hours).. the plastic heel piece that slides bakc/forth for boot bias, just popped/broke off, the tab on the bottom that holds it in place broke.

[Odd Job]

almost all the extremecarvers in Russia ride F2 Race Ti. Some of riders are 240-260lbs and have no problems with it.

In my experience, the forces from extreme carving are almost nil, U just dont' feel as much force.. also the forces are going DOWN on the bindings, into the board.. there is no angulating force stressing the bindings laterally. About the only lateral force on them is from rotation in extreme carving IMO.

[nils]

In my experience, the forces from extreme carving are almost nil, U just dont' feel as much force.. also the forces are going DOWN on the bindings, into the board.. there is no angulating force stressing the bindings laterally. About the only lateral force on them is from rotation in extreme carving IMO.

I don't agree with the above....EC applies extreme pressures to the bindings laterally speaking, since the technique also implies transfering weight forward and backwards on the boots with much more leverage than with higher angles.

Basically it means bails are bending and braking often because the lateral pressure is enormous...plus the fact that most EC'ers don't tighten their bindings to the max to keep that lateral movement possible, increasing the leverage of the boots to the bails... I am not a powerful rider, around 81 kilos for 6'3 and I broke F2 ti, Bomber inox, and bomber titanium bails..requesting us ( Jacques / Patrice and I ) to make special bails in special steel at a cost of 100 euros per set...

This was of course before the magnifiscent TD3 Sidewinder that changed all that...Now I break no more, and bend no more...the binding manages the lateral flex and its such an improvement over normal flat bindings!....anyway: I would not dare to step on a F2 ti because of that risk, and favor TD3SW for this reason... ( plus I love their sexy look and the color matches that of my Swoards ;))

Nils

[jacopodotti]

IMHO I must be able to close the binding with just one hand, if I need to use two hands the bindings are too tightened and that could take quickly to breakage.

[Odd Job]

I got extremely lucky I didn't injure anything... the front binding broke.. twice...

[Bordy]

IMHO I must be able to close the binding with just one hand, if I need to use two hands the bindings are too tightened and that could take quickly to breakage.

Well said, so much brakage is cased by misadjusted bindings, either to lose of to tight. your bindings need to be correct... If you are over stressing the plate, bails and toe n even more so heel blocks then that's what fails, in my experience, also if they are to lose and get twist and stretch plus shock loaded when chatter happens, then they also fail. The sidewinders are stronger, the ride is different, not worse or better just different. I trust my f2s. Always have always will...I also trust the sidewinders but they are not what I choose to ride, I would ride them, if I broke al kinds of shiit though.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Well said, so much brakage is cased by misadjusted bindings, either to lose of to tight. your bindings need to be correct... If you are over stressing the plate, bails and toe n even more so heel blocks then that's what fails, in my experience, also if they are to lose and get twist and stretch plus shock loaded when chatter happens, then they also fail. The sidewinders are stronger, the ride is different, not worse or better just different. I trust my f2s. Always have always will...I also trust the sidewinders but they are not what I choose to ride, I would ride them, if I broke al kinds of shiit though.

I think you summed it up very nicely Bordy. +1

[Odd Job]

bordy, is driving with the knees wrong for angulation? It is something I have just added, I have always remembered your post to just "stand on heels" but I just wanted to try driving the knees, it is adding a lot of downforce, or am I misunderstanding something? (current technique, I ride with 55/50 angles)

Well said, so much brakage is cased by misadjusted bindings, either to lose of to tight. your bindings need to be correct... If you are over stressing the plate, bails and toe n even more so heel blocks then that's what fails, in my experience, also if they are to lose and get twist and stretch plus shock loaded when chatter happens, then they also fail. The sidewinders are stronger, the ride is different, not worse or better just different. I trust my f2s. Always have always will...I also trust the sidewinders but they are not what I choose to ride, I would ride them, if I broke al kinds of shiit though.

[lowrider]

If you like to drive hard with your knees what about riding with a plate. The flex in the plate would perhaps compensate for any overflex and stress on the bindings. This of course depends on your choice of plate. Driving hard on a stiff plate would be pointless but those same forces on a more flexable plate could give very favorable results and less fatigue for the rider ?

[Odd Job]

I broke brand new f2 bindings on a kessler with a kessler plate... :(

If you like to drive hard with your knees what about riding with a plate. The flex in the plate would perhaps compensate for any overflex and stress on the bindings. This of course depends on your choice of plate. Driving hard on a stiff plate would be pointless but those same forces on a more flexable plate could give very favorable results and less fatigue for the rider ?

[Bordy]

bordy, is driving with the knees wrong for angulation? It is something I have just added, I have always remembered your post to just "stand on heels" but I just wanted to try driving the knees, it is adding a lot of downforce, or am I misunderstanding something? (current technique, I ride with 55/50 angles)

This is a very hard question to answer with out video or seeing your riding. I wish I had a magic answer for you here but I dont. I will say, If your hips are in the correct place fore and aft and you are Balanced ,your angulation and tilt should be more then enough to make all the force you need to pressure the heel side edge to grip. With out driving you knees( I am assuming you mean torgueing your Knees towrd the turn) Both knees should be heading into the turn matched with your angles and shoulders creating just a hair or rotery to make enough energy to realese the turn and start the next. Lots of Rotery issues, lead to misalinement that then lead to Balance issues and then to recovery movements to stay centered, and or catch up to the turn shape. These POWER recovery moves can force lower body adjustment that are misalighned and may be part of the breakage issue you are having. As I mentioned before I would make sure the bindings are adjust correctly also. If you are trying to make massive foot stearing input into the binding to change turn shape while riding hard this can also break gear. Many riders try and torgue the crap out of there lower body hoping this will change turn shape, this movement then gets silly becuase you also try and move forward to pruessure the nose to tighten the turn and this balancing act inside plastic boots makes plent of force at the bottom of the lever(your leg) and you end up with pieces of plastic....

To insure you are not over tourging your knees while "driving" place your front hand as a feeler gauge to make sure you are creating enough tilt before you drive. So with your arm in a relaxed position about 6 inches away from your front butt cheak keep your hand out in front about 6 inches and arm extended all the way, then use your knukles with a closed first to graze the ground before your hip hits the snow. Use this "feeler Gauge" to decide when to drive. So knuckles brush snow and then you drive knees just a little. this should helpo your timing. If you drive before having a stable edged platform to push against you can flex past the correct balance point then the edge sets and angles happen but you may have torgued the plastic of the binding then added the force of the angles and then POP plastic every where...If you make your movement through the turn and then create a stable edged platform and then stear it with good inputs you cant force all that load when the plateform is created...

I hope this helps.

[BlueB]

If you like to drive hard with your knees what about riding with a plate. The flex in the plate would perhaps compensate for any overflex and stress on the bindings. This of course depends on your choice of plate. Driving hard on a stiff plate would be pointless but those same forces on a more flexable plate could give very favorable results and less fatigue for the rider ?

Um, no. Anything adding stack height actually increases the lever length and poitential forces trhat lever might need to sustain. It adds weight too. So, no, not gentler on the bindings, except that it saves them from a bit of shock from uneven terrain.

[lowrider]

Um, no. Anything adding stack height actually increases the lever length and poitential forces trhat lever might need to sustain. It adds weight too. So, no, not gentler on the bindings, except that it saves them from a bit of shock from uneven terrain.

Isn't it that momentary shock the usually results in failure Wouldn't the ability of the plate to torque mitigate that ?

[BlueB]

From my experience most failures (gear and boddy) happen from way more severe perrils (tumbling, forced recoveries, hitting the hidden objects to sudden stop, etc.) then terrain imperfections that plate eats up. In that case the increased lever and added weight work more against you then help...

[lowrider]

Going back to the origonal post it concerns me that having experienced one or two failures of a particular piece of equipment one would continue to use the same equipment in similar circumstances. I'll sometimes take a small risk but in the case mentioned above the risk of failure seems to be very high. I believe it was Einstein that proclaimed that " Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results was the definition of insanity" for your own safety invest in different bindings.

[Odd Job]

If it helps with diagnosis as to why I'm breaking bindings recently ->

Both breaks, were on the front binding, same area, of the same slope, consecutive days.

It's where it runs out to the lift line, so the pitch isn't steep at all, but runs for a while. Both breaks were during laid over heelside turns (not EC, although I think the first break was during me doing a pureboarding heel grab rotary maneuver), both were at the bottom of the turn (C shape), both ended with me continuing to slide on my butt, then stopping, although the 2nd break, I think I broke.. then chattered.. or it chattered and broke...... (bottom of the turn).

This is a very hard question to answer with out video or seeing your riding. I wish I had a magic answer for you here but I dont. I will say, If your hips are in the correct place fore and aft and you are Balanced ,your angulation and tilt should be more then enough to make all the force you need to pressure the heel side edge to grip. With out driving you knees( I am assuming you mean torgueing your Knees towrd the turn) Both knees should be heading into the turn matched with your angles and shoulders creating just a hair or rotery to make enough energy to realese the turn and start the next. Lots of Rotery issues, lead to misalinement that then lead to Balance issues and then to recovery movements to stay centered, and or catch up to the turn shape. These POWER recovery moves can force lower body adjustment that are misalighned and may be part of the breakage issue you are having. As I mentioned before I would make sure the bindings are adjust correctly also. If you are trying to make massive foot stearing input into the binding to change turn shape while riding hard this can also break gear. Many riders try and torgue the crap out of there lower body hoping this will change turn shape, this movement then gets silly becuase you also try and move forward to pruessure the nose to tighten the turn and this balancing act inside plastic boots makes plent of force at the bottom of the lever(your leg) and you end up with pieces of plastic....

To insure you are not over tourging your knees while "driving" place your front hand as a feeler gauge to make sure you are creating enough tilt before you drive. So with your arm in a relaxed position about 6 inches away from your front butt cheak keep your hand out in front about 6 inches and arm extended all the way, then use your knukles with a closed first to graze the ground before your hip hits the snow. Use this "feeler Gauge" to decide when to drive. So knuckles brush snow and then you drive knees just a little. this should helpo your timing. If you drive before having a stable edged platform to push against you can flex past the correct balance point then the edge sets and angles happen but you may have torgued the plastic of the binding then added the force of the angles and then POP plastic every where...If you make your movement through the turn and then create a stable edged platform and then stear it with good inputs you cant force all that load when the plateform is created...

I hope this helps.

[Ian M]

NoirX252 - without seeing you ride, this thread will only ever be a general discussion. A quick video of your riding would be priceless.

Otherwise, would it be helpful to get on the same page about what some of you mean by 'driving the knees'? To me, this can mean two different things:

1. Moving both knees laterally to the inside of the carve to increase angulation, resulting in more edge angle
   
2. Rotating the front knee into the carve, which is a lower-body steering motion
   

Option number one is a key ingredient for carving on hard snow. Option number two is very effective for initiating sliding turns on freeride boards, but less useful for hard-boot carving. (The board generates enough steering from the combination of edge angle and pressure.)

Cheers,

IanM