b0ardski Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I am definitely in the right place:1luvu: Glisse is glisse whether you are on 1 stick or 2, period. the marketing WILL HAVE TO ADJUST to an aging population of snow sliders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) .I also think that snowboarding demands a higher level of physical fitness and strength to be enjoyed as much as skiing for lower skill levels.. I beg to differ on this note. The main reason I stuck with snowboarding over the last 20 years even though I was already an expert skier and telemarker is that one plank requires less physical effort for the the same amount of fun in every condition imaginable, except Ice or uphill. Edited May 17, 2012 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Despite some of my comments in the past about not wanting to pretend to be cool to kids to get them into hardbooting,I would like to point out that when kids see kids doing as well as KK and the Winters boys,they think it's cool, as my boys do.My boys would probably snowboard more if Mom and I didn't have so much fun getting all over the mountain with them on skis.Herein lies the problem;they would just be getting the same old sub par learning experience 'in the park before they can really turn' that I've seen taking place at local mountains if we put them in snowboard lessons.That means we have to teach them;and we're selfishly having too much fun with them on skis.So,I guess I've just convinced myself to put more effort into their desire to snowboard next season:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I think your doing it right Steve, the confidence and versatility that come with independent feet when learning to ski carry over to one stick. learning both makes a more versatile athlete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I beg to differ on this note.The main reason I stuck with snowboarding over the last 20 years even though I was already an expert skier and telemarker is that one plank requires less physical effort for the the same amount of fun in every condition imaginable, except Ice or uphill. I would have to disagree with your disagreement.In 20 years of teaching I saw quite often the difficulty experienced by adults and kids with low levels of physical ability and fitness.While snowboarding may be 'easier to get good at' (I use that phrase lightly) entry level skiing is considerably less challenging for many of these folks and is often what they 'succeed' at after 'failing' in snowboarding. Just to be clear,I'm talking about the first entry into the sport,and why it is another possible reason snowboarding is not growing. Edited May 17, 2012 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I think your doing it right Steve, the confidence and versatility that come with independent feet when learning to ski carry over to one stick.learning both makes a more versatile athlete. True! We see what each sport does for the other when Nathan does both in the same week.The balance gained from snowboarding carries over and the footwork and edging seem to carry over to snowboarding.It's all good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Your right about skiing, i.e. independent feet, for non-athletic beginners being easier to get down the slope. The body slam factor keeps a lot of people from even trying one plank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I beg to differ on this note.The main reason I stuck with snowboarding over the last 20 years even though I was already an expert skier and telemarker is that one plank requires less physical effort for the the same amount of fun in every condition imaginable, except Ice or uphill. Wow, I couldn't disagree more. As a complete newb skis are easier, at advanced beginner/low intermediate stage boards are easier but once you have some real skill, skis are by far the more efficient tool except for powder. With modern fat skis even that difference is not much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I can board all day (at the level I'm at) and at the end of the day, I'm really tired but I don't feel beat up. Boarding seems easier on the knees than skiing. When I used to ski all day (long time ago), I hurt at the end of the day. However, I used to love to ski bumps and I avoid them almost entirely on a board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 When I used to ski all day (long time ago), I hurt at the end of the day. However, I used to love to ski bumps and I avoid them almost entirely on a board.Exactly. Try riding bumps all day long on a board and see how beat up you feel. I love bumps and I'm not half-bad at them but they are way more work on a snowboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I beg to differ on this note.The main reason I stuck with snowboarding over the last 20 years even though I was already an expert skier and telemarker is that one plank requires less physical effort for the the same amount of fun in every condition imaginable, except Ice or uphill. Strange , for me one carved turn on an alpine board requires about the same energy input as three carved turns on skis. Probably not much difference just cruising though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Digressing from the toppic, but interesting discussion of skis vs. board... After 37 years of skiing and 9-10 years of boarding and being certified to teach both, here are my observations: Skis - easier for begginer, quicker to become an intermediate on board, about the same time required to become an expert on both devices. Skis are by miles easier for small children, age 2 to 7. For me personally, riding on advanced level, board is physicaly less demanding. Skis always gave me more quad burn and groin pain. In the days of straight skis and knee-to-knee technique, I had less problems with groins, with carving skis I feel more vulnerable. Also, I skied the bumps pretty good on straight skis but strugle on the shaped ones. From the other hand, I love the board in the soft bumps. Still exhausting, though. Final confirmation came just recently, with the worst injury of my snow career. It happened on skis, in the same race course that I blasted on board. After studying the net a bit, it became obvious that muscles actually pulled a piece of bone off! All of my personal preferences above are related to hard boots, though. I do not even think that I can last all day on softies... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXFR70 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I wanted to reply to this thread and share some observations and thoughts on it.</SPAN> At my local mountains, in Northeastern PA, Elk and Sno Mountain, along with anywhere else I have ever been, there is always more skiers, nothing new, we all know there are more skiers than snowboarders.</SPAN> At my local mountains, I see very few new snowboarders, I see a lot more new skiers, and I have known several people particularly younger than me, I am 27, that have switched to skiing. </SPAN> When friends or people ask me about the 2, or even when I worked in the rental shops, I would tell them skiing is easier at first, snowboarding seems to be more fun once you get the hang of it, while not progressing a whole lot, and both are about the same to get really good and truly carving on either, snowboarding may even be harder, as I think a lot of skiers just do not want to or care to truly carve on skis.</SPAN> I may not be the best ambassador for snowboarding, but I have always said, if I could quickly get to the level I am on a snowboard on skis, (I will admit that when I started I switched to snowboarding as it was the cooler of the 2), I would switch or at least learn skiing. I get to ride 20 - 30 days a year if I am lucky, so basically I do not want to put all my time and energy into learning and not having as much fun, then there’s another set of equipment to buy… </SPAN> I also see this, as far as back country or anything like that I see snowboarding as hindering what you are able to do. Particular for hiking/traverses, where you can skin or skate with skis and stay on top… also, when you have to drop something or start into a chute, I think it would be much easier on skis than snowboard, you can generate more speed quicker and have better balance.</SPAN> I think many people realize the same things, almost everyone that I knew that did both has gravitated more towards skiing.</SPAN> I just got into hardbooting, and for whatever reason, when I demoed boots, they worked out much better than my own boots have so far, before the season I will be seeing a bootfitter who can hopefully straighten it out, but I have never had a problem with ski boots, whether rental boots or friends boots. Part of this may be due to the fact that heel lift is not as much of a problem in ski boots, so with snowboarding to prevent heel lift, the extra tightness creates other problems, but I have never had trouble with an overlap design boot. I have had snowboard soft boot problems except my first pair, that was k2 clickers, and I did not have as many problems with burton step-ins either, I would assume it is pressure from the straps, and finally, I got stuff worked out with my soft boots this past year with no pain. I hope I am able to get it straightened out, otherwise I may end up going towards skiing some too. I kind of went off on a tangent, but I see way more new skiers mainly park kids, and even younger racers, locally I see almost no one on a snowboard in hardboots, and the “park rats” are mainly skiers now.</SPAN> Edited May 17, 2012 by Timeless61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) @BlueB and Timeless61,plusONE on everything you guys wrote.It is not really digressing from the topic if it provides insight into the declining popularity of snowboarding.In my own experience,not much has changed over the years when it comes to the roles that governing bodies/schools and the lessons they provide have had in the rise and fall of popularity.In all the time I taught for a living,return rates after the first group lesson for example,were much higher for skiing than snowboarding and I would guess that's still the case.The chip I've had on my shoulder in the years since giving up that career is that 'grownups' were left out in the cold when it comes to learning to snowboard and the retention rate seems worse than ever. I also agree with the concept that a new paradigm of smaller, less opulent resorts that are there for sliding and not just stupidly decadent real estate is the future of sliding for the masses.Of course,for whatever reasons, climates change both environmentally and culturally,and those are the biggest challenges faced. Edited May 17, 2012 by Steve Prokopiw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BXFR70 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I have a question for you guys that ski and snowboard and are proficient at both, do you find that you worry about your knees skiing? I mean i just have visions at times of catching an edge or falling or something, and knee twisting and all that.... also, I think part of it for me, and this may be solved if we had more boot options, it seems like people have a lot of problems with snowboard hard boots and fit. we have only 2 currently made options (UPZ and Deeluxe), and another in Head that there are some left, but no longer produced, or using ski boots which seem to need a fair amount of modifications, where ski boots come in many different widths and shapes, so it seems like people are able to find somthing that works better for them in a ski boot. do you agree? I am not sure if this is true, maybe I have only ever tried on wider last boots and that's why they worked so well. with that said, this forum is great, without this forum I would not have known about many things. Also, Carver's Almanac, I would have had no idea about snowboard hard boots, bindings or manufacturers. Edited May 17, 2012 by Timeless61 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Releasable bindings - knee savers, well... mostly. In my recent deasastrous fall, bindings didn't realease on the initial fall, only in the 2nd thumble. I thought that left knee would be gone. Lo and behold, it's my hip that gave in :( I ski and ride in the ski boots. I have several pairs of the same model. I mostly use the heavily modified ones (for both disciplines). However, as from last year, I reconvinced myself that the stock (unmodified) stiff version is even better for crving on GOOD snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I have a question for you guys that ski and snowboard and are proficient at both, do you find that you worry about your knees skiing? I mean i just have visions at times of catching an edge or falling or something, and knee twisting and all that.... This is definitely true for me, I wrapped my knee around a tree on a steep powder run at Silver in '90 when I first got into hard boots. Tore the acl and destroyed the mcl while experimenting with SX91 ski boots in modified strap binders at45*f/10*r. The front knee has been "loose" and bends medially without much resistance since then so I don't ski trees or double diamond terrain much any more for fear of re-injury by catching an inside edge or tip on brush/tree. Having both feet on 1 board means it won't get bent sideways. I do still ski sometimes to practice switch or when it's too icy to carve or just to demo new skis (loved the new dynastar slicers in the bumps at Lookout this season). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 I have a question for you guys that ski and snowboard and are proficient at both, do you find that you worry about your knees skiing? I mean i just have visions at times of catching an edge or falling or something, and knee twisting and all that.... Oh! -wince- you have NO idea how paranoid I get at times when I'm skiing. The thought of feeling/"hearing" my bone pop while skiing from the knee area's actually making me -censored- shrivelled up inwards. -shudder- However, I do ski conservatively (carving only, at reasonable speed, not hauling damn ass). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted May 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 So, sounds like people start their kids out skiing because it is easier to get started and snowboarding no longer has a cool factor adavantage over skiing so kids aren't attracted to it, they just keep skiing. Oh no! Did I adopt a sport that is no longer cool? I'm going to have to re-think my core values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 So, sounds like people start their kids out skiing because it is easier to get started and snowboarding no longer has a cool factor adavantage over skiing so kids aren't attracted to it, they just keep skiing. Oh no! Did I adopt a sport that is no longer cool? I'm going to have to re-think my core values. well we started our Kids Skiing because there were no snowboards :) then when they put the metal edges on and the grooming machines started layin down carpet...well I took them surfin on the mountain with me :) and then I taught them to Skateboard as well as Surf in the ocean on our vacations by the sea... they never went back to Skis nor did I :) I had Knee surgery and major shin bang while skiing all those years... then again it was just bump bashin all day long when the Pow was gone Kids are Cool no matter what they Ride :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Well, in the eyes of the ski resorts, it doesn't make any difference as long as visitation is up and bunch of ski tickets are sold. That's the main bottom line. And not to mention that Generation X,Y,Z are primarily the parents as well as some of the 80's child are parents (I'm one of 'em) and during the snowmaking and grooming conference, Professor Bender (retired) of CMC made a speech with his finding/research on the demograph that we -WILL- experience a slowdown due to bunch of retiring/dying baby boomers. And then when the 90s become the vast majority of parents, then there will be a boom, assuming there will be still vying interests in skiing/snowboarding hence ski resorts frantically trying to market themselves one way or another. As far as the economy goes, we're still long ways from making "in the black" budget wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 (edited) one plank requires less physical effort for the the same amount of fun in every condition imaginable, except Ice or uphill. -1. Could not disagree more. Skiing is cake next to snowboarding except in powder and spring slush. Maybe snowboarding with ski poles prevents you from actually, well, snowboarding. :p Edited May 19, 2012 by Jack Michaud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Huh, Jack, have you tried skiing like you carve the board, hip to hip, full C carves? For me, while I put about the same amount of energy in to make it happen, the stress on the individual legs is a lot more. Especially when the things start going wrong... Also, I have to flex my inner leg a lot more than I ever have to do on board. Or, maybe it's because I mostly ski without the poles, and it actually prevents me from skiing :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 What Kind of Skiing ? Bumps or Groom Skiing was all Bumps in 68 till I stopped in 84 to Snowboard... It was Bumps on FIS, Ridge of Bell, Northstar, Reds, Ruthies, Copper, little nell and down to #1...skiing bumps and skiing bumps well are two different things. Carving skis on Groom is not close to what was required to ski Bumps! the Energy and reflexes needed to ski bumps is just not needed to Carve around on Modern Groom. Next year at SES try Bump Carving on Reds or maybe just the top of #6 on your plated supersticks :D video below shows what is required. Also the surface area of a snowboard does not allow one to penetrate the Pow like a pair of skis...I know from my own experience that this is true...having ridden Pow extensively on both types of equipment over 40 years here in Colorado, and while floating around on the surface is sweet :) having only your head and hands visible while charging down last dollar was a whole different animal :rolleyes: This year the numbers for the Industry are off, because the Snow did not happen for most of the areas...and what I have noticed over the years is that a negative snow year leads to stories like the one that started this thread...:o http://youtu.be/8ZKbMW6JMJg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 (edited) -1. Could not disagree more. Skiing is cake next to snowboarding except in powder and spring slush. Maybe snowboarding with ski poles prevents you from actually, well, snowboarding. :p I've always said 'I ski on a snowboard', Here's the proof I don't board on skis though, I'll leave that to the young & dumb park rats. Nice example SBS, wish I could find nice zipper line bumps like those (they don't seem to make them like that any more) I'd tear'em up on the board at least as well as I would on skis. Edited May 20, 2012 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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