Cant question

[michael.a]

A silly question but...

canting is the lateral tilting of the binding, ie, from one edge of the board to the other.

So what is "inward" canting? And outward? Im regular, so would inward canting be having my binding/boots tilt towards the toeside edge (right edge when standing normally on a board)? Im having trouble visualing why someone would want inward canting on the front and outward, so towards the heelside edge, on the rear...

I dont use canting only toe and heel lift but would like to try it this year.

[lowrider]

Tilting your feet in or out, most boots have adjustment in the upper cuff to tilt the top of the boot in or out to adjust for bowleg or straight leg.Thats good to a point but for even greater range of comfort tilting the sole of your boot to the left or right will provide even greater comfort depending on your stance and other factors. Cant is basically both combined in one it allows your binding to angle sideways as well as forward and back. Look up a picture of Catek bindings and you will get the whole idea explaind visually.

[Jack M]

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7931#cant

[Sinecure]

At least as it is used here, canting refers to tilting your bindings inward, toward one another where tilting toward heel or toe is referred to as heel lift and toe lift. Of course with good bindings, you can combine lift and cant to fit your needs.

If you think about it, we use the word canting the same way skiers do. It is just that we're mounted in a different orientation. For skiers, canting refers to adjusting their boot cuff, insole, boot sole and/or binding to accommodate being bowlegged or knock-kneed and still keep the ski flat. For us it is as much about comfort and body mechanics as it is function.

[Jack M]

At least as it is used here, canting refers to tilting your bindings inward, toward one another...

or outward, away from each other.

[michael.a]

So I just want to make sure I get this:

inward canting is tilting the bindings toward each other.

outward canting is tilting the bindings away from each other.

Im one of those people that have massive problems deciding if a guy in a photo is holding up his right or left hand, and imagining bindings set already at some angle and then tilting them in some direction is difficult.

So someone with inward cant on the front binding and outward canting on the rear binding is actually shifting their legs and therefore upper body "out" from the center of the board more to the toeside edge. Do I have that right?

Like I said, I can ride flat but mostly use toe/heel lift and its perfectly comfortable, but I like to tinker :)

[kieran]

So someone with inward cant on the front binding and outward canting on the rear binding is actually shifting their legs and therefore upper body "out" from the center of the board more to the toeside edge. Do I have that right?

yes.

[LambertoMI]

I am not a super fast racer as some of these folks. So I, like you, ride more for comfort. I have been riding carving boards for over 20 yrs.

I use a rear heel lift 7-8 degrees to bring my rear leg inward and behind my front leg. This bring my knees together and locks my legs into a better form. This helps me feel very glued into my turns and keeps my body tight in form.

Conversely, I have a friend that continually is adjusting and tweaking his cants, binding angles, and binding position. He finds that these micro adjustments really impact his riding. I have learned to get comfortable and adjust my riding based on the board and conditions.

Not sure which way is right, but I would say find what works for you and what makes you comfortable and confident. Knowing that new techniques and adjustments will take some getting used to, but may be for the better.

Good Luck

L-

[Puddy Tat]

I found it depends on the board, boots and rider biomechanics. Sorry I can't recal the stance width below, but it is the same on both boards.

On my Schtubby 21 cm waist with TD3 SI at angles of 65/60 I ride with toe and heel lift and some outward canting because I'm a little bowlegged.

On my Donek custom AM board with a 25cm waist with TD3 SIs at 50/45 I ride with reduced toe and heel lift but with inward canting.

I found as my stance moves across the board (toward 0 degrees) I cant inward more such that the boots are angling toward my hips. And as I increase my angles (towards 90) I lift more and cant less to achieve the same result, boot tops angled towards my hips. Or in my case the position of my lower leg due to being bowlegged.

It was interesting because when I first received the AM board, i set it up on the carpet without inward canting. When i stepped into the bindings it was immediately uncomortable on my hips and legs. It felt like the board, bindings, and boots, were trying to force me into a different position than what I would take riding. Adding inward canting immediately solved this and allowed me to be in my natural riding position.

Dave

[Puddy Tat]

... Locking anything is a recipe for pain, as you won't be able to respond quickly to uneven snow, other people, etc. Besides, two knees independent of one another are much better at pressuring the board then having them both together.

+1 on this. I need to have freedom in my knees as I twist (pedal) the board on turn initiation. I was surprised last year at a picture of me in transition that showed board twist. Prior to that I didn't really think it had all that much effect. Makes sense when you are steering and driving with you front leg though.

Dave

[Beckmann AG]

Im one of those people that have massive problems deciding if a guy in a photo is holding up his right or left hand, and imagining bindings set already at some angle and then tilting them in some direction is difficult.

Consider then that canting is simply the relationship of the long axis of each boot sole to the plane of the topsheet when secured in a binding. If the medial side of the sole is lower than the lateral side, that foot has been canted inward. Lateral side lower than medial side, canted outward.

Done properly, canting restores ankle mobility while that joint is under compression/load.

In the hardbooting context, canting can also be used at some stance angles to fine tune the leverage ratios, (and therefore relative ease of edge engagement) between toe and heel side under each foot.

Canting is,(or should be), the last in the sequence of user affected geometric boot alterations.

Each athlete may have distinctly different canting needs from one side to the other. This 'value' if you will, should be more or less consistent (as it reflects the relationship of the CM of the body to the joints under compression). If one constantly needs to adjust their canting at a set stance angle, one of the other variables is off the mark or has been ignored entirely.

I need to have freedom in my knees as I twist (pedal) the board on turn initiation

To each their own of course, but when your board begins to resemble a corkscrew more so than an ice skate, you are defeating its 'design'. If you find this tactic facilitates turn initiation, there is a good chance there is lack in the link between you and your board.

If someone is bow-legged or knock-kneed, they will use more outward or inward cant respectively.

A common, and incorrect, generalization.

Quite often, it works better the other way around. Dependent, of course, on where in the lower extremities the appearance of varus/valgus originates.

[~tb]

Great post (as usual) Beckman.

Quick question (and please pardon the paraphrasing and reprocessing of your quote).

. . . Canting is,(or should be), the last in the sequence of user affected geometric boot alterations. . .

. . . If one constantly needs to adjust their canting at a set stance angle, one of the other variables is off the mark or has been ignored entirely.

. . . If you find this tactic facilitates turn initiation, there is a good chance there is lack in the link between you and your board.

If a rider (such as myself) thinks that they might fall into this camp, where would you encourage them to look for the disconnect that was "ignored entirely." There is only 1 location in my setup that I would classify as "ignored entirely" and I am curious if it is on your "likely list."

I know that cant, and cant alone (you site it as boot cant, but I adjust as binding cant, which I know are not 1:1) is my most often adjusted variable throughout the season. Primairily to improve leverage on one edge or the other (normally to help my toe side).

Thanks in advance!

[Beckmann AG]

~tb, (mmHg?)

For alpine and Telemark skiing the sequence is a follows:

Foot support (+- .008" of medial/lateral post)

Bootboard angle (ramp)(+- .01degree)

Forward lean (to support faceted knee joint)

Cuff alignment (shell closure should not 'twist' foot, boot sole should strike close to flat while walking)

Canting (either under binding, or sole planing)(+-.05deg)

Same for hardboot, although the ramp angle isn't particularly easy to work with, and can be accommodated (sort of) with toe and heel lift on the bindings.

However, you now have two bindings to work with, so you need to go front binding, (location on board, angle, lift, cant) and then the rear binding (stance width, angle, lift, cant). Also, as you are dealing with a fixed plane, any leg length differences should be accounted for.

Again, given the fixed plane, I will tune binding cant to +- .01degree.

And then, you can fine tune with the medial and lateral stops on the boot cuffs.

Plate binding adjustments have a tendency to overlap in their perceived effect. E.G., heel lift on the rear binding will provide some attenuation of leverage toeside to heelside, but will also affect your ability to pressure the board.

Set-up can also be complicated by the 'give' built into many boot/binding systems. Liner density, sole block density, binding flex, damping systems, etc., each will color the outcome. Ideally, cumulative flex should be 'lockable', to facilitate baselining, and then you can 'unlock' it incrementally once you have established the 'fixed' parameters.

As on a motorcycle, you want both ends to compliment each other, and you need to follow a particular path, in a tightening spiral, until you have the best outcome.

You can ride a moto with a pitted/sticky headset, but it will require more effort.

But then, you are still riding a moto, so all is good....And to the casual observer you will simply appear 'dynamic'.

When you consider that your body is responsive to very small increments of surface change (as it must be to keep you upright and functional for daily activity), time spent on accuracy (as opposed to precision) pays off.

On the other hand, snowboarding is a recreational activity for most, and not a laboratory.

As such, most are content to guide their boards with movements of hips and knees. The alternative simply isn't accessible/affordable.

Thus, despite words to the contrary, the majority likely has no idea what 'riding with the feet' really means (or feels like).

The same can be said for skiing.

I don't recall what you are on for boots, etc, so I will let you ponder your next move there, in lieu of further data.

If you find that you are adjusting cant primarily based on daily surface density, you may simply have too much give in the system as a whole. Particularly if you can make one edge feel right, but not the other.

You may also want to try a solid binding on the front, and a SW on the rear with the red (hardest?) bumper to the medial side, and the next softer bumper to the lateral side.

The two surfaces most appropriate for binding tuning are either hard ice, or 8" or more of fresh. When both conditions feel more or less the same,(in terms of your movements) you are done.

PP/groomed will let you get away with almost anything.