Step-ins and snow jamming

[GV27]

Hi all,

First, I did do a search but didn't come up with anything. This must have been covered but maybe I'm using the wrong terms.

I think I know the answer to this question but just want to confirm.

I'm in the market for a new setup (been running an old Burton Alp with Burton plates) and trying to figure out bindings. I've always thought that step-in bindings would kinda be the wear snowboarding emerged to be a "grown-up" sport - in total contrast to folks sitting down and strapping in soft boots just like I did on my Burton Performer nearly 30 years ago!

I do a lot of powder and tree riding and so naturally I often have to strap in with my bindings and boots caked with snow. How much is jamming a problem in, say, Catek or Bomber bindings? That is, not being able to get the binding fully engaged due to snow between the boot and plate? I would guess it would be an issue, but would just like to confirm.

Thanks,

Chris

[J0hn]

Hey, and welcome to BOL.

I have found this to be almost entirely dependent on the snow type. If it's cold, you should get very little snow sticking on the binding and heel of your boot. Even in deep snow, if it's cold, it usually brushes right off. If it's been warm and the snow is slushy or sticky, it can be a problem. But with practice, you get pretty good at scraping your heel on the heel receiver before stepping in. I've only had a real problem a few times when the snow was particularly bad.

[GV27]

Thanks John,

Have you had any experience with non step-in plates? Just wondering if you can compare. Mine can get jammed up exactly as you say and no binding is going to be immune to it. Trying to figure out if it's worse with the step-ins though. I can see where being able to stomp into them might give you more leverage, but I can also see the mechanism being more finicky.....

C

[Keenan]

My Fintecs and step in's work pretty well as far as not clogging, the receiver seems to break the snow up pretty well, of course with any binding it's more difficult in deep snow. The problem I have is when using the Fintecs with standard bindings, I'm on my 3rd stomp pad this season because the metal heel ices up so hard and I don't want to stomp on my standard bindings to remove the ice build up. I would love to see a ceramic coating or a larger heel pad that is more resistant to freezing up.

[LeGogoussier]

My experience is that jams happen only in wet snow when it packs up under my toes. It makes it impossible to lower the heel flush and latch the pins.

The problem is more acute with Cateks than TDs as the Catek toe block has more surface and no void in the center.

[philw]

Kind of what they said.

I doubt it makes much difference what type of bindings you're using. I've not found any difference with Intecs versus traditional clip-in bindings, although I've not used the latter for years so maybe I just forgot. I use F2 Intecs with standard Intec heels.

I'd say I never have any trouble, and that's in a mix of snow. Powder you have to dig out of course, but they're certainly faster in/ out in than anything else in that stuff.

As J stated above, the trickiest time is when you get freeze/thaw and your boots ice up, which isn't uncommon with some types of transport. When the skiers are banging their boot bases with their sticks, or scraping them against their bindings, you have to scrape your boot bases against the Intec heel pieces. But this is not an issue for step-ins: if you have ice on the bottom of your boot, you have to get rid of it to step-in or clip-in.

[J0hn]

Have you had any experience with non step-in plates? Just wondering if you can compare. Mine can get jammed up exactly as you say and no binding is going to be immune to it. Trying to figure out if it's worse with the step-ins though. I can see where being able to stomp into them might give you more leverage, but I can also see the mechanism being more finicky.....

I have not used a modern standard bail plate binding, only step-ins. So I can't really compare. You would think that the ability to stomp would help clear the crud off, but you can't really stomp. You need to have your toe engaged with the toe bail first, so you only get a few inches of movement with your heel. That doesn't count as stomping.

I do get snow packed under the toe of my boot, and stuck to the toe block of the binding as well. But the heel seems to be worse. You get more efficient at scraping it off with practice.

[Puddy Tat]

Don't get me wrong I love the TD3s and Fintecs. I am in fact waiting for the Step-in version of the Sidewinders before buying a set of those bindings but...

My experience is that jams happen only in wet snow when it packs up under my toes. It makes it impossible to lower the heel flush and latch the pins.

I agree with this. I can't comment on Cateks vs Bombers as I've only ridden TD3 SIs but I find the screw holes in the toe blocks fill with snow which under pressure turns to ice. Eventually this mounds up about 1-2mm and acts as a fulcrum against the boots toe piece then I can't get the heel to latch. Or worse it partially latches. stuff on my boot heel isn't ever an issue as it's easy to clean off. This toe block issue is annoying and difficult to tell when it is there as when viewed from directly above the 'mounding' isn't apparent. The same issue has occurred with both Deeluxe and UPZ boots. For me snow doesn't seem to stick to the rest of the toe block surface. I'm considering filling these slots with silicon next season to see if that prevents the problem.

Again I love my TD3s and Fintecs (I have 2 sets). But on future revisions it would be nice to see a plastic insert/cap for the toe slots that would help prevent this build up. That and I'd like to see the engagement pins of the Fintecs anodized into a colour that would make it easier to see at a glance how much of the pin was sticking through the heel receiver slot to verify proper engagement of the pin.

Cheers,

Dave

[Pat Donnelly]

Prevents ice nipples from forming over bolt heads. I only apply to the rear binding, and the formation occurs when conditions are ideal for packing snow. When the ice nipples built up many times I was not expecting it and suspected ice build up on my heel only to find this was not the case. A few times I had to use either a key or ski pole to chip away the build up. Duct tap alone worked fine but the black was better match eh black p-tex top sheet. I will stick with this band-aide or temporary approach as I can readily access the bolts to make sure they are snug.

[GV27]

That all sounds pretty good actually. Nothing I haven't experienced with my plates. Might have to give step-ins a try this time around!

Cheers,

Chris

[ursle]

SPAM

Vegetable oil sprayed on the boot soles nightly and allowed to dry will negate your problem as long as you don't take warm boots out in cold snow;)

[Puddy Tat]

Prevents ice nipples over bolt heads

Yeah I thought of doing something like that with tape, but I am hoping if I just fill the slot with silicon (or a construction grade sikaflex) and smooth it flush with the top of the slot it might not be so noticeable. If the filler doesn't work I'll be going to tape like in your picture.

Of course this is all about my board having nice ethestics when it's sitting in a rack, as obviously nobody will see it when I'm standing on it. I just realized that all this talk about how the board looks when I'm not ridinng it makes me sound like a huge poser.

Dave

[queequeg]

This is a problem with all bindings, as far as I can tell. With stepins it can be very dangerous as occasionally the pins will engage just enough to make it *feel* like you are completely in, when in fact you are only just a little bit in (because the snow on your boots/bindings is preventing you from locking in all the way. I had two ejections this past season due to that sort of situation. Always, always, always check the engagement of your pins before starting down your run if you are on (f)intecs.

PAM can help. So can bomber butter. But you're eventually going to get snow in there.

Like others have noted, it is a particularly bad problem when your boots are warm or when your board is warm. It is also always a problem on warm days when the snow is sticky.

I have lots of problems with this —*I think that it is the biggest area for potential improvement in alpine snowboard binding systems.

Things that help me out: get in the habit of *constantly* rubbing the heel/toe pieces on your boot against the intec heel reciever in your binding whenever your foot touches the ground.

Try not to let your foot touch the ground.

Carry something with you that you can remove stubborn ice with ... and make sure you're not gonna stab yourself with it when you fall.

I hate stomp pads, but a heavy spiked dakine stomp pad seems to be favored for ice removal by those that like them.

Cover the hex nuts on your TD3/OS2's with duct tape or something: ice loves to form in there and it is *HARD* to get out when it does.

Honestly, nothing pisses me off more than ice in my bindings. It drives me crazy.

[Puddy Tat]

... it can be very dangerous as occasionally the pins will engage just enough to make it *feel* like you are completely in, when in fact you are only just a little bit ... I had two ejections this past season due to that sort of situation. Always, always, always check the engagement of your pins before starting down your run if you are on (f)intecs.

+1 including the ejections. Rear foot early in the run. This is why I'd like to see the pins anodized a different colour so they stand out from the heel piece when they are engaged. It would make it easier to quickly see how much of the pin is sticking out. And even easier for other people around you to see if your pins weren't properly engaged.

I have lots of problems with this —*I think that it is the biggest area for potential improvement in alpine snowboard binding systems.

+1

Honestly, nothing pisses me off more than ice in my bindings. It drives me crazy.

+1 again.

Personally I won't go back to bails as i like the convience of step-ins and i can't touch my toes when i'm not in hardboots. But anybody new to step-ins needs to be aware of the issues. I realize we've be talking (F)intecs here but all of the systems have issues with snow accumulation. I can't comment on any F.A.S.T. binding problems, but I've seen a Physics with speed hooks release (premature eject-you-lation) due to snow build up under the toe of the boot.

Dave

[GV27]

I absolutely here you with convenience. I haven't bought new boots and bindings in a LOOOONNNNGGG time. But my boots are coming apart and when I first started looking around and saw that the availability is kinda lousy I had half a mind to look at a soft boot setup. But I just can't see going back to fumbling around on the ground strapping my feet in with those straps. It's amazing that "mainstream" binding technology hasn't really advanced in 30+ years from the days when I started with a pair of Sorels on a Burton Performer.

Snow jamming is a tough nut to crack. It's still a problem with ski bindings, and just image the amount of R&D that's gone into those versus snowboard plates. 10x, 100x? So many users, so many manufacturers.

I've tried most of the suggestions on here at one time or another. The best I think is the DaKine spike pad. That really works. I lost one off of one of my boards in the middle of this season and the increase in jamming was big.

With some Bomber bindings I think it'll be an improvement in this department for me no matter which I go for. They have way more holes in them for snow to get out than my old Burton plates, which are pretty much solid.....

Thanks again for all the replies, guys.

[bjvircks]

To help with eliminating partial engagements... I believe the edge of the intec pin needs to be rounded over rather than the relativly sharp edges where the lead in chamfer (1) and ramp (2) meet the O.D. of the pin. This would go a long way to allowing the pin to center up more easily and be less likely to hang up on the inside edges of the receiver hole. Also... having the radius at the tip if the ramp (3) would mean less wear on the receiver lead in. These refinements would have minimal cost impact but I think would significantly increase our satisfaction with our bindings.

intec pin.bmp

[Seraph]

Prevents ice nipples over bolt heads

or use this stuff to make a molded fit?

http://sugru.com/about

[Gcarve]

or use this stuff to make a molded fit?

http://sugru.com/about

This stuff ^^^ looks like it should do the trick.

[tufty]

The best I think is the DaKine spike pad.

This.

I find bail bindings *less* of an issue with snow buildup, mainly because, if you have enough snow on your boots for it to be a problem, you can't shut the bails (or you're gonna feel it). In any case, the Dakine Spike Pad is the solution (to the point where I had considered cutting one of them in two for my skis)

[Pat Donnelly]

Be careful as these types of products may be difficult to remove if you need to access the bolt heads.

[kieran]

Be careful as these types of products may be difficult to remove if you need to access the bolt heads.

i drip candle wax onto the two screws in my rear intec receiver. easy to remove if needs be, and stops the ice forming over them.

[GV27]

Or drip ski wax in there so it's nice and fast.....;)

[J0hn]

Vegetable oil sprayed on the boot soles nightly and allowed to dry will negate your problem as long as you don't take warm boots out in cold snow

I wouldn't think it was a good idea to spray oil on a plastic boot. Won't that make the plastic soft and gummy?

This is a problem with all bindings, as far as I can tell. With stepins it can be very dangerous as occasionally the pins will engage just enough to make it *feel* like you are completely in, when in fact you are only just a little bit in (because the snow on your boots/bindings is preventing you from locking in all the way. I had two ejections this past season due to that sort of situation. Always, always, always check the engagement of your pins before starting down your run if you are on (f)intecs.

I always hop a couple of times to help with engagement. Then I twist my ankle from side to side to test it. If the binding is not engaged, it will pop out here, well before getting into my first turn.

[johnasmo]

Dakine "Spike" stomp pad. Available in charcoal and clear.

Swosh Swosh on a substantial stomp pad is way easier than fussing around trying to chip packed snow off your boots using the heal receiver. And with the toe cleaned by the stomp pad, you can kick away ice on the binding surfaces most of the time if there is any, but usually the problem is only snow packed on the boot from stepping on the snow prior to launch.

I have both TD3 step-ins and standards (sidewinder) and find the step-ins to be more tolerant of a half-assed stomp pad procedure. The standards sometimes take multiple attempts before everything is cleared from the boot's surfaces. With the step-ins, it's usually just swoosh swoosh (one toe swipe, one heel swipe), step in, eyeball the pins for for complete engagement, and go. With the TD3 steel receiver, it's easy to get a visual on the pins after stepping in, even while moving.

[queequeg]

I always hop a couple of times to help with engagement. Then I twist my ankle from side to side to test it. If the binding is not engaged, it will pop out here, well before getting into my first turn.

I do this too. it's not good enough: Jumping around will not break ice (though it will turn snow into ice). The forces that you accumulate in a turn are greater by an order of magnitude than what you can produce standing still and twisting your leg. (I did these very things before both of my ejections).

The best way to verify that things are hunky dory is to see the pins protruding from the receiver.