Toe and heel lift and when to use it?

[newcarver]

For the past several seasons, I've used bindings that only had cant in them and no lift of any kind. Now I got a Elan Speedball 163 that is pretty narrow (18 cm or less). I also aquired some TD1's with 3 deg cants. I set these on this board with toe lift on the front a heel lift on the back foot. I really like the way it felt. This was the 1st time I have riden the board. I was using 60 deg on the front and 52 on the back. This is about 5-10 deg more angle than I use on any other board (they are all wider). Will the lift be something useful for less angle? How about for freeriding or powder? Was thinking of selling all my bindings and buying some TD3's and 2nd board kits.

[Surf Quebec]

Lift is used to get a wider stance.

LIke all settings , it is a personnal taste.

I use 3 degree toe and heel lift with my TD2 and unknow degrees with my blax bindings. This gives me 19.5 inches stance and I'm 5'6.

[Jack M]

Yep, toe and heel lift enable you to use a wider stance more comfortably. A good "default" position to experiment from is pure toe/heel lift and no cant. TD1s don't allow this but you can kluge them by sandwiching nickels between the plate and the toe/heel pads on one side to negate the inward cant. (2 nickels next to each other, not on top of each other) This is NOT Bomber endorsed.

Here's some more reading on cant and lift:

http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm

On another note I think you should try using binding angles that are closer to parallel, like 5 degrees apart at most, unless you are naturally much more duck-footed than average.

[b0ardski]

I've always used just inward cant on wider boards at lower angles (+/-40*) but found toe/heel lift on skinny boards at 50-60 degree angles works better and negates the need for inward cant.

[BlueB]

Only 3 toe/ 6 heel lift above 45*.

When I go into freeride/pow mode, with rear binding somwhere in 20-40 range, I add inward cant (rear only) and maybe less heel lift.

Last but not least, teaching on h/boots in duck stance (yeah, I know - WTF?) - no inward cant but still small toe/heel lift.

Don't sell your softer bindings. TDs are a bit of overkill for freeride, too tall and heavy.

[Flywalker]

On another note I think you should try using binding angles that are closer to parallel, like 5 degrees apart at most, unless you are naturally much more duck-footed than average.

Why would you recommend this?

[Jack M]

Why would you recommend this?

More than that and your knees may be fighting each other. Try it.

[kipstar]

Yep, toe and heel lift enable you to use a wider stance more comfortably. A good "default" position to experiment from is pure toe/heel lift and no cant. TD1s don't allow this but you can kluge them by sandwiching nickels between the plate and the toe/heel pads on one side to negate the inward cant. (2 nickels next to each other, not on top of each other) This is NOT Bomber endorsed.

Now we find out that TD1s are the reason that the US economy is running a current account deficit; all those nickels being used worldwide for investment in anti-cant technologies........

[H2O]

In my opinion, after having tryed a lot of setting solutions: bindings FLAT on the board!

Cant and lift allow a wider stance but they harm significantly the correct body movement and edge control. Furthermore, the board bending during the turns already induces a canting under both feet.

It's possible to use a wider stance using softer boots (as for example I am 174 cm and my stance is 48-49 cm).

[BlueB]

In my opinion, after having tryed a lot of setting solutions: bindings FLAT on the board!

Cant and lift allow a wider stance but they harm significantly the correct body movement and edge control. Furthermore, the board bending during the turns already induces a canting under both feet.

It's possible to use a wider stance using softer boots (as for example I am 174 cm and my stance is 48-49 cm).

I guess no one told JJ Anderson he'll screw up his performance by running 1" of heel lift at the back ;)

Oh, oh, Karl, too?

Bozzeto:

Ouch, this guy too?

And these 2:

Now you are going to come up with usual "yeah, but those are racers, for freecarving and EC blah, blah, blah...", so I'll post this guy too. I know for sure ;) he's on 3/6 toe/heel lifts:

The last comment on softer boots allowing wider stance actually works against your point: You are relying on the deforming of the boots to get in a comfortable stance, instead of already being preset to it.

[kieran]

question time!

i run the same heel lift at the back as toe lift on the front. my back boot has more forward lean set. this is comfy for me. anatomically, it gives me an upright orientation relative to the board.

now, in theory, would it be 'better' to have more heel lift at the back, and have similar forward lean angles on both boots? i ask because i see a lot of people run more binding-oriented forward lean at the rear.

[BlueB]

now, in theory, would it be 'better' to have more heel lift at the back, and have similar forward lean angles on both boots?

Yes, if it works for you. Try it.

Alternativelly, you could just straighten the rear cuff to match the front one and move the rear binding slightly forward.

By running increased cuff lean, you decreased the range of forward motion of the boot.

[H2O]

BlueB, I've told: "in my opinion".

Your considerations are very interesting, but (in my opinion):

- I am not a racer; a race setting is more counter-rotated;

- all the boards in the photo are setted with plates (the plate don't bends, and so, also I think it is useful to set the bindings with cant/lift to have a comfortable stance);

- with flat bindings (mounted at zero set-back and with the boot setted at the same calf canting) my chest is facing the same direction as the feet and my gravity center is in the region of the hips; I find this position less fatiguing for joints and with a straight transmission;

- the comfortable stance is allowed also (not only) by the board bending and by the boots with a good forward flex); the body is free to move and not in a preseted position;

- there are other rotational carving styles which recommend cant/lift at rear binding (as Pureboarding, I rode with them for about 2 seasons) and the basic position is a bit different than a flat setting but always sounds good;

- I think that basically the setting may be considered a personal preference and every consideration is valid.

Congratulations for the layed turn!

[BlueB]

I agree that everything is personal. If flat feels good, ride it...

Just to clarify few things:

I've chosen the pics of the racers as they need every bit of performance and edge control they can get.

All pics are with the plates simply because almost every racer is on the plates nowadays. If one tried hard enough, it should be possible to find the pics from pre-plate era. They would show the cants and lifts too...

Yes, body should be able to move. That's done most eficiently from a position that is already preset to most comfortable, ballanced and natural to the rider. If you rely on the flex of the boots to get into a comfortable position, something is wrong with the basic position and the body and gear is under some kind of strain even before you started riding.

Rotational or non-rotational is irrelevant for this dicussion. On should master all techniques and use them as needed.

Chest facing the feet direction... Yeah, that is important, but can be cheated (even withouth knowing it) by rotation at the waist. I'm way more interested where are your hips facing in relaxed mode. Care to post few pics, from varuious angles, of yourself "carpet carving"?

[Jonny]

I like BlueB's response - it should feel natural when at rest (and tweak from there).

I want to feel like I'm in a neutral, evenly weighted position with no strain or tension when running flat (or standing on a carpet for that matter) and like I can drop straight down without automatically increasing pressure on either edge. For me, with my current boots and current stance width, that means a little toe lift on front, a little heel lift on back, and slight inward cant on both. If I went to a narrower stance I'd reduce the inward cant perhaps, and if I went wider I'd increase it.

[H2O]

I'm way more interested where are your hips facing in relaxed mode.

In basic position, facing the same direction as the feet.

Here a short video (not mine) about the basic position in flat bindings (not mine)

I like it and flat feels good.

I agree also on should master all techniques and use them as needed.

[BlueB]

Very good drills in the video, thank you!

However, it seems to prove my point. He's got rear cuff all the way forward and the front one very straight, in attempt to compensate for lack of the toe/heel lifts. It is still insufficent, as in basic position his his hips are open into the toe edge (lesser angle then pointing of the feet). At least it looks that way in the opening static scenes. Then, when he tries to force better alignment, his hips get pushed forward, CM getting somwere over, or close, to the front heel.

[H2O]

I've understood what you are saying.

I think it's a simple body adjustment thanks to the boot forward flex; the body is free to move with a softer setting but the transmission is more direct (and in respect of the joints) without any cant/lift.

Cant/lift, in my opinion, plaster the body in a comfortable position (especially using stiff hardboots) but at the same time reduce the movement ability.

So, why in softboots isn't necessary cant/lift?

I think we can talk endlessly but at the end I'll continue to ride flat, and you with cant/lift....except want to try different settings.

[Corey]

That video was pretty neat, nice to see the logical progression. It is interesting to see his rear foot clearly lift off the heel block during his flexing. He's got a lot of pressure trying to lift his heel.

I agree though, each of us will use what works for our legs. I tried a wide range and my body seems to like lots of toe and heel lift.

[BlueB]

I think it's a simple body adjustment thanks to the boot forward flex; the body is free to move with a softer setting

We are not discussing the stiffness/softness of the interface here. You can ride both stiff or softer interface adjusted, or not adjusted, to optimal cant/lift.

but the transmission is more direct (and in respect of the joints) without any cant/lift.

Care to explain this, from both mechanical and biomechanical point of view. Science please, not Sword dogma.

Cant/lift, in my opinion, plaster the body in a comfortable position (especially using stiff hardboots) but at the same time reduce the movement ability.

Please leave stiff boots asside, as I said that's another topic. Please explain the reduction of mobility.

Here is a thought: If I go flat on my rear binding and adjust my boot lean max forward to get slightly more comfortable, I've actually taken away from forward travell I could have had from the boot, before maxing out.

So, why in softboots isn't necessary cant/lift?

The softies are so sloppy that you get away without it. However, it is benefficial. Just, majority of riders can not be bothered, or understand, the beneffits. The best soft boot binding on the market (for carving) has endless lift/cant adjustments. The top of the line Ride binding has them too. Most of the good bindingsd have the "gass pedal" which should be considered toe lift. Lot of riders add the lean to the rear highback to compensate for the lack of heel lift.

I think we can talk endlessly but at the end I'll continue to ride flat, and you with cant/lift....except want to try different settings.

Nothing wrong with endless talk, especially in the off-season ;) As the result, we might get better understanding of the things, trigger new ideas, or at least entertain ourselves nicely :D

[Tatoos]

,,Care to explain this, from both mechanical and biomechanical point of view. Science please, not Sword dogma. "

Yes, all of Europe is infected Extremecarving-Swoard" style. Few people are familiar with other styles such as Pump, Böhmer, or race.Most attempts to go so as Patrice and Jacques propagates. But that's just one of the shades of swnowboard.I personally think that the ride is flat and awkward tedious (not anatomic structure of the human body).Toe / heel lift helps (me) working knees, hip when I change the edge.

[pokkis]

In EC i strongly believe that due that smallish stance used there is no need to have any lifts and cants.

Me dont use them either due im used to ride with long stance with flexy boots. I can ride test boards with cants and lifts but i dont like feeling, most propably due too lazy to get used to them.

[kieran]

i have mondo 30 boots. i ride an 18.5cm waist board.

i use toe and heel lift to avoid looking like i'm doing lunges on the board.

[H2O]

,,Care to explain this, from both mechanical and biomechanical point of view. Science please, not Sword dogma. "

Yes, all of Europe is infected Extremecarving-Swoard" style. Few people are familiar with other styles such as Pump, Böhmer, or race.

No Tatoos!

In Europe few people practice Extremecarving style and a lot of people ride in other styles such as race, virus/narrow boards style, pump, skwal, Pureboarding style, Bomber style (am I right? as we call the frontal/cant-lifted style).

Even within Eurocarving style there are Swiss Style (rotational) and French Style (frontal) that set own's equipment in different way.

Two times in a year (november and may) we meet in Soelden (Austria) to ride all together. There are also some manufacturers (Sigi Grabner, Virus, Kessler, Goltes, Oxess, F2, Pogo, Rabanser, etc) and athletes.

I ride from '85 and I am not only infected Extremecarving Swoard style.

Recently also the National Snowboard School promotes to new instructor courses a flat hardbooter setting.

Most attempts to go so as Patrice and Jacques propagates. But that's just one of the shades of swnowboard.

I agree.

I personally think that the ride is flat and awkward tedious (not anatomic structure of the human body)

I don't agree; probably on the carpet but not on the snow, with a softer setting and with a right stance.

Toe / heel lift helps (me) working knees, hip when I change the edge.

Here is the point.

Depends by your style. As for example, in EC style you must keep the knees flexed and don't put them together; you should feel both of your heels/tibias pushing on the edge with the same strength.

And of course, the movements should start from the hips.

But, I've read also: someone recommends a setting with outward canting in the rear ( http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/canting.cfm ) , someone (if I've understood well) recommends a riding with the knees apart (and not stuck together) http://www.bomberonline.com//articles/seperate_zee_knees.cfm ; what do you think about?

[Tatoos]

Do not get offended by my words. I want to compare the style, such as race where all the news works in detail - the setting angles , lifts,cants , inclination, etc.For example, F1-where the first solutions and innovations are tested and then put into mass production.Lets see -Carbon fiber's-it is taken from the space industry, F1, medicine and now in virtually we have in every board.Biomechanics of sport says that it is better to lift than without.

I have many friends in Poland who know a lot about EC and have not heard of Böhmer and Pump styles.

I always dreamed to go to Soelden - maybe next year we meet out there!

I with a lift - you without .