Duckfoot? Really?

[two_ravens]

So I admit to having no professional experience teaching snowboarding, but in the ski school where I used to teach, falling leaf was part of the skill progression used to teach carving - a precise falling leaf requires edge control, and precisely controlled skids are a prerequisite to precisely controlled carves - at least in skiing. Of course, the only thing we taught in duck stance was a kick turn. :)

My sweetie (a telemark skier) just did his first day on a snowboard Saturday. We messed with his angles on the carpet for a long time and set them up so he felt most comfortable - came out to about 30/20. Maybe a bit steep to start, but he was quickly linking turns, and plans to try out his hardboot set up soon!

[BigBump]

jack you are 100% right. It's about duck, my appologies.

Anyway, as far as I know it's not AASI's official opinion. As I said a few posts up I was at an a event a few weeks ago and discussed encouraging a forward stance for beginners so that the boards had a better feeling of directionality. The guy running the clinic was on AASI's Eastern Ed Staff and an Examiner. If I get a chance, I'll shoot him an email about this.

But, it may be a difference in opinion between the different AASI regional divisions. Eastern has a tendency to do things differently, mainly because we have such different conditions that the other regions.

I have discussed angles numberous times at AASI clinics(and exams) usually everyone has a reasonable reason for why they ride forward or duck.

I will say that as you go to higher level clinics and exams, duck definitely does become more popular but I believe that's because at upper levels, almost everyone rides switch alot and at least dabbles in the park. I feel that duck is a more versatile stance set up than running forward angles which is why I ride that way. And alot of the apparent limitations of duck can be overcome with changes in your technique.

I have no problem with running forward angles, and did for a long time before slowly going over to duck. What bothers me is that the tone of this thread is that people who run duck are only doing it to look cool or because there is some conspiracy that forces them to ride that way.

Also, ever wonder if the reason skiers who try snowboarding find it uncomfortable are because they are going from heat fitted liners and possibly custom footbeds to rental equipement that is poor fitting to begin with?

[BobD]

Also, ever wonder if the reason skiers who try snowboarding find it uncomfortable are because they are going from heat fitted liners and possibly custom footbeds to rental equipement that is poor fitting to begin with?

I think the reason is, that they took a lesson, were given a board set up duck stance, instructed by a guy riding duck stance (who in all probability, firmly believes this is the only way to ride), and were never told they had a choice. They were likely at least, given the impression that riding in both directions was essential to learning to snowboard. I can, with almost certainty guess that they were never told both bindings can be angled forward, that this may be more comfortable, or maybe even a more efficient way to ride if you just want to cruise the slopes, or ride powder.

I don't think anyone is saying that setting beginners up in a duck stance is not useful for many new boarders, especially those who will progress to the park, and slope style. It makes it easier for the rental shop, and the instructor. The problem is that there is no longer an opportunity to choose.

It would be like going for a kayak lesson, and being automatically put in a small, tippy, and cramped modern white water kayak. It is with out a doubt the best way to learn high level kayaking skills, but the majority of people just want to cruise on flat water in a touring kayak. This situation doesn't happen because most people are aware of the type of kayaking they want to do. With snowboarding however, most people have no clue about different ways to snowboard, and accept what the rental, and ski school gives them.

[BlueB]

ASSI guys, better start practicing:

[LeeW]

Ive been riding duck since 98. softies.

[BigBump]

Have you tried riding with forward angles at your current level of skill? That's assuming you know how to angulate with forward angles (no slight intended). That's why I think a video of a rider who is expert at both stances would be so revealing. Nothing to do with what's best for beginners, park monkeys, etc. Just what's best for carving slopes in one direction.

Sorry I missed this. I'll try setting my angles back to the way I used to ride(+21, +12) this weekend for a few runs and see how it feels and report back. I won't have any video or anything, so you'll have to take me at my word.

I still feel, and this may change this weekend, that at the level we are at(ie people who snowboard for fun and aren't pros) any performance dings due to duck or forward angles can be made up by adapting your technique. For me, I love the symetrical feeling of going switch and then going back to regular and having both directions feel identical.

Also, people on this board seem to think it's a rarity to see someone carve well duck. I would say it's a rarity to see someone carve well in softies regardless of set-up.

We are pretty much talking about something that is total personal preference, so we can armwrestle all we want but at the end of the day some people like 15,-15 or 21, 12, or 30, -5.

[Jack M]

jack you are 100% right. It's about duck, my appologies.

No worries. That story from Keenan just spiked my blood pressure.

Anyway, as far as I know it's not AASI's official opinion.

I hope not, but someone seems to have told Keenan that.

I have no problem with running forward angles, and did for a long time before slowly going over to duck.

I have no problem with people who ride duck as long as they're good and were thinking for themselves when they chose that stance.

What bothers me is that the tone of this thread is that people who run duck are only doing it to look cool

I would say all of the snowboarders on the hill who suck, and that seems to be about 80% these days, are only riding duck to look cool (how's that for irony?) or because they don't know any better.

or because there is some conspiracy that forces them to ride that way.

There is, it's called Transworld Snowboarding Magazine. And apparently, maybe also the AASI.

Also, ever wonder if the reason skiers who try snowboarding find it uncomfortable are because they are going from heat fitted liners and possibly custom footbeds to rental equipement that is poor fitting to begin with?

Not really. Rental equipment is getting better and better. Sugarloaf's rental gear was great for my son last year. I rented softies in Jackson Hole and was treated to some great Burton boots that fit like a dream. The rental setup was a quantum leap better than the last softie setup I owned myself.

And, what BobD said.

[BigBump]

I have no problem with people who ride duck as long as they're good and were thinking for themselves when they chose that stance.

Since when did skill level determine what angles you are allowed to ride?

I would say all of the snowboarders on the hill who suck, and that seems to be about 80% these days, are only riding duck to look cool (how's that for irony?) or because they don't know any better.

That's a pretty broad statement.

Do I think everyone has done the research and struggled with figuring out what angles to run? No. Their friends who ride duck probably got them into riding and so that's how they set up their bindings. How many people here have set up a board to teach a friend? Did you tell them all the advantages/disadvantages of the different ways to set them up and let them decide or did you just set it up how you are used to riding?

Also, who are you to say who sucks and who doesn't?

[Rob Stevens]

My first intro to Bomber was suggesting that rental equipment be set up this way. I got pretty beat up on, you might guess.

I've had a chance to think about this a lot since then...

If there's a problem here, it's that insturctors think they know what the lesson is going to be before they've even met the student.

It's pretty simple... Just ask "When you see yourself riding this thing well one day, what do you see yourself doing?" As there aren't really unwilling participants anymore, like there were in the 90's, when people were badgered into it, you're highly likely to get an answer based on some kind of discipline.

To start, why not set up duck? Even if it's just for a few moves, this position is helpful for the beginner, as they are straightrunning, sideslipping, or traversing. Once they have a direction, you may change the angles of the back and even front foot, but I would only do this if I had a student whose goal was directional riding. This person would probably be older. If it's your average young person, they likely would stay duck, as this does seem to work best in the park.

I have also heard comments in this thread speaking to where a lesson "ends". This is dangerous and implies that if a client does not reach this "end" point, that they are somehow unsuccessful. Know that once you put someone on a board for the first time in a straight run, they are "riding". At every learned skill along the way, they are "riding better". This might mean that, according to your clients athleticism, the "falling leaf" could be as far as they get in an hour or two. Please be aware that traversing like this, in both directions, is a great accomplishment and that for many children, the "turbo" version may be how they ride for months before turning.

The saleseman in me also likes a lesson with no end, as I have a reason to ask them back. they may be inclined to come back to me, as I have both listened to them and told them that they're rad about every 30 seconds, in achieving their "mini goals".

If you look at the CASI beginner model, it is called "Quick Ride" and implies that the client will be riding quickly. Again this is because we consider "riding" to be somthing they'll do right away, not just when they have linked turns.

AASI? I don't really know, but I guess I'll find out in Austria at their snowboard presentation to the rest of the countries there with snowboard instructor programs.

Further on the subject of stance, I always found a forward-angled turn to be more difficult in transition from heels to toes when sliding or slarving and that this turn was performed easier in a flatter stance. The opposite would be said for carving, which is far better in a forward stance, as we all know. Back to the lesson bit, if you figure they'll be sliding turns for awhile, you might as well leave the bindings alone (lower angle... Possibly duck), but keep asking questions and watching, as you will then know when it's really time for a change.

[Jack M]

With all due respect Rob, "riding" is being able to go, turn, and stop, under control. If you can't do these things you are sledding (tobogganing, sliding, etc), and are a danger to yourself and others.

[Corey]

If there's a problem here, it's that insturctors think they know what the lesson is going to be before they've even met the student.

It's pretty simple... Just ask "When you see yourself riding this thing well one day, what do you see yourself doing?"

I LOVE that! I don't teach snowboarding, but I'm going to steal that approach and attitude for motorsports. It's so obvious when so eloquently stated.

[pow4ever]

I am in no position to argue the finer point of teaching.

FWIW.

Jackson Hole's Steep and Deep camp instructors teach in duck foot riding(softboot). I didn't particapte in the camp but did talk to the program folks. If duck stance is good enough for JH terran then what's so bad with it?

game in rider and not in stance?

--

David

[LeeW]

Well, I noticed when I squat while ducking stancing, I feel a lot more comfortable. I don't know if that makes sense at all.

[BobD]

I am in no position to argue the finer point of teaching.

FWIW.

Jackson Hole's Steep and Deep camp instructors teach in duck foot riding(softboot). I didn't particapte in the camp but did talk to the program folks. If duck stance is good enough for JH terran then what's so bad with it?

game in rider and not in stance?

--

David

There is no doubt, that for experts, and those aspiring to be expert everything riders, duck stance has great advantages. The argument is though, that not everyone wants to ride every which way possible. Duck stance isn't an advantage for just carving, surfing pow, and generally cruising in one direction. So the question then is, are people who who want to do these things only, being put off by having to stand totally sideways, and cranking their necks to see where they are going?

[Rob Stevens]

<OBJECT width=480 height=385>

<embed src="<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRt8kFuIdSo?fs=1&hl=en_US" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRt8kFuIdSo?fs=1&ampampamphl=en_US[/url]" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></OBJECT>

There are a few riders in the first video who look suspiciously like the guy freecarving in the second video.

Could the Japanese riders do the same thing they're doing on the free carving racer's terrain?

I figure it's more a question of equipment and practice.

"Toilet Butt"? That's more a problem of the viewers perspective, than the riders performance.

Qualifications:

- Big legs.

- Size 9 feet.

- Ability to see Boris' picture as something other than ****ing classic.

[Rob Stevens]

The links I botched are under "Videos" for "Japan Kagayaking" and under "Racing / Coaching" look at the "Midweighting" thread.

[Steve Prokopiw]

There is no doubt, that for experts, and those aspiring to be expert everything riders, duck stance has great advantages. The argument is though, that not everyone wants to ride every which way possible. Duck stance isn't an advantage for just carving, surfing pow, and generally cruising in one direction. So the question then is, are people who who want to do these things only, being put off by having to stand totally sideways, and cranking their necks to see where they are going?

in my own experience that this is the case with AASI's phylosophy,both with potentially great adult instructors and potential clientele in the same demographics.The instructor may never make it to or beyond cert 2 without duck..And so,his paycheck will be smaller and the sport will have lost another opportunity to attract more grownups.

[BigBump]

in my own experience that this is the case with AASI's phylosophy,both with potentially great adult instructors and potential clientele in the same demographics.The instructor may never make it to or beyond cert 2 without duck..And so,his paycheck will be smaller and the sport will have lost another opportunity to attract more grownups.

I don't really see how a foward stance could keep you from these things(I passed my Level II with angles of +21, +12).

Agreed, it's probably easier doing it duck, especially at the Level III level, because the level for switch riding(like switch bumps) and the level of the terrain that requires a solid dynamic skarved turn.

However, that doesn't mean it's going impossible to do in a more forward stance, just a little more difficult.

Just because riding switch is harder, doesn't mean it can't be done and it isn't signifigantly harder. Just like carving may be trickier duck but that doesn't mean it can't be done and that's required at Level II.

Both stances have pro's and con's, but neither one limits you to the point where you can't do something.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I passed everything I ever went for in hardboots right through examiner.But of course that was way back.

As far as what's acceptable now however,I have noticed up here in the northwest that the recommended stance,style and tendencies of pass/fail reasoning have been very biased to duck,very narrow in interpretation of what should pass or fail when it comes to form,and it is easy to tell who has gone through the system.

I was as guilty as anyone of helping to create a robotic style in trainees during the early days of pre aasi in the psia .Heck,it probably still shows in my riding.But I think the establishment would rather limit opportunites than let go of some of their stranglehold on the general direction of snowboarding.

[BigBump]

Well, if that is the case in PNW division that is too bad. Here in the east, you are judged on the tasks assigned, not your stance. You definitely have to be versatile, especially once you get to the Level III standards which would give duck footed riders an advantage as it is a much more versatile stance. But as a Level III certified instructor, you should be able to improve anyone's riding that walks up for a lesson be it carving, freeriding, or freestyle which means you have to be extremely versatile. If you aren't interested in being that versatile, then in my opinion, you shouldn't be going for higher levels of certification.

I just read through the AASI-NW 2009 standards off the psia-nw website, and I didn't see anything you couldn't do in either stance. If examiners are finding fault with people showing up with a forward stance, that's definitely too bad.

I do know that the freestyle standards at exams, which could be considered the most duck stance friendly, was very hotly debated this year by the examiners in AASI East.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I feel that the insistence that duck is much more versatile is rather arbitrary.The vast majority of people have a preferred direction.Insisting that they will be so much more versatile just because they can ride down the mountain facing the other way is lost on most grownups.My original point.

I have always been confident In my ability to teach others to succeed at learning to snowboard regardless of what was on my feet.

That said, I have never felt in anyway at a disadvantage with my stance and boots when riding with experts on softies and very often at an advantage from a performance standpoint.Versatility has not entered my mind as a drawback to my stance in the real world outside the switch maneuvers in the park.

[BlueB]

Inspired by an article by CASI Executive Director, I tried riding/teaching duckfoot on hardboots today. I changed my regullar teaching 30/10 to 20/-10, kept in the small front toe/rear heel lifts in and bumped the stance up by a 1/4" or so... I used super flexy plates (all plastic). It was perfectly managable without feeling too wierd. My demonstration of the very basic skills (sideslipping, pendulum, etc.) didn't improve much, but the abillity to demonstrate the turns switch (for regular rider - I'm goofy) was slightly better. Higher speed performance was worse, but I need to try it a bit more.

[BobD]

Inspired by an article by CASI Executive Director, I tried riding/teaching duckfoot on hardboots today. I changed my regullar teaching 30/10 to 20/-10, kept in the small front toe/rear heel lifts in and bumped the stance up by a 1/4" or so... I used super flexy plates (all plastic). It was perfectly managable without feeling too wierd. My demonstration of the very basic skills (sideslipping, pendulum, etc.) didn't improve much, but the abillity to demonstrate the turns switch (for regular rider - I'm goofy) was slightly better. Higher speed performance was worse, but I need to try it a bit more.

As Crocodile Dundee said "Well, you can live on it, but it taste like ****"

[BlueB]

Ok, the day after... My hips are acting a bit. Not quite painfull, but definitelly something that wasn't there before...

Will try more next Tuesday.

[110/220V]

a damn shame for the duck stance, no place in the snowsport. You can argue and rationalise if you choose, but that argument is non fujnctional and in and out my ear like water off duck a55...