Learning to teach carving

[Jack M]

Fairly par for the course. :lol: Something along the lines of a **** salesman with a mouth full of samples. Stay tuned!

Think Snow!

Is this supposed to be funny?

[b0ardski]

There is more to it than that, but it's a start.

While you should not get tekky with your clients unless requested, it is important that you understand the science behind what you are attempting to do.

+1 on both counts

This is why I call him Dr. Frankenboots.

:D

Impressive boots with those lateral flex mods:biggthump

It's just that my learning in snowboarding so far has had much more of a 'Zen and the Art of Archery' approach to it. (

I read that decades ago, something about don't be the arrow, be the target that attracts the arrow? I may have to read that again;)

"Or it could have just been the shrooms:)"

Good way to get the analytical mind out of the way and let the body make it happen:o

[Beckmann AG]

To be honest, I did find Eric's post above a little overwhelming...

And that was the point.

The original post asked about teaching; and when teaching, expressing every bit of information stored in your head doesn't help your client. Quite often, when an instructor picks up a relevant bit of knowledge, there is this almost irrepressible urge to share that knowledge, whether or not it truly fits the context. This is a normal state of being.

Good skiing and snowboarding is minimalist. If you are doing it well, you are doing almost nothing.

Economy of motion/effort is not to be confused with 'being static'.

As Steve noted, there is success in the 'subconscious'. Given the opportunity, and the means, riding can, and should be, intuitive. Achieving this state is facilitated by clearing away all the junk.

Participate in almost any physical activity, and sooner or later you will make breakthroughs of one type or another, often despite yourself. This is learning by mileage, for lack of a better term. For a few, of the right physical type and disposition, this method can work out fabulously. For the rest of the population, the right information, at the right time, in the right quantity, can lead to improvement.

The better your understanding of the mechanisms and systems at play, the easier it is to determine your client's needs, and the simpler the information transfer.

[leeho730]

minimalist

I recon better term for that would be 'effortless' ;)

[philw]

... Review your HS physics text, and resolve (to a finite end) all of your on-snow outcomes according to the chapter on introductory kinematics. ...

You're making no sense at all with any of this. I guess most people are too polite to point it out, but you're talking abject nonsense.

I'd say that if the teacher's ego pushes them to try to impress the pupil with cod science, then that's probably a bad starting point.

[Beckmann AG]

You're making no sense at all with any of this. I guess most people are too polite to point it out, but you're talking abject nonsense.

Perhaps I mixed up kinematics with kinetics and classical mechanics. Regardless, I don't see how a grasp of objects in motion, and what governs that motion, can be a bad idea.

[OhD]

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance had a lot of good insights to offer - particularly for gearheads.

It's useful to think hard about what you are trying to do, but not necessarily while you are doing it. There's a lot to be said for putting in enough highly-conscious mileage to train your body to do things efficiently, and good teachers can help a lot with this by offering objective feedback and a somewhat controlled environment (riding tailgun). Once the motor skills are there, the mind can be dedicated to strategy, path planning, situational awareness and taking pleasure in it all (not necessarily in that order). That said, the mind can always pay some attention to the skills and watch for things that could use some tuning up.

Thinking hard about sports certainly should include some effort to understand the physics involved, but if you don't have the background for it you can waste a lot of time on uselessly incorrect analyses, as many magazine and webpage writers have demonstrated. Better to just try subtly and methodically varying one or two things at a time in your technique, paying careful attention to the results, and trying to repeat what feels right and works well as soon and as often as possible so the sensation (of both the actions and the results) will be burned into your muscle memory. Pay careful attention to good examples as well. THere's certainly enough good video of masterful riding online.

[Ian M]

I read that decades ago, something about don't be the arrow, be the target that attracts the arrow? I may have to read that again;)

Close, b0ardski... almost more like 'forget about the target, the arrow, and the bow. Find the truest, stillest place inside you where all is at harmony, and the event (archery) will unfold with effortless perfection'. That's what I remember of it anyways...

The better your understanding of the mechanisms and systems at play, the easier it is to determine your client's needs, and the simpler the information transfer.

This makes a great deal of sense to me, Eric. You seem to achieve a high level of understanding of your clients' needs through very involved biomechanical analysis. Do you believe that other skilled teachers reach a similar level of understanding by a different route? Something less physics-based?

I ask out of curiosity. Pedagogy is really at the heart of this thread, and I'm curious to hear about different instructing styles. Just as none of us carve exactly the same, I'm SURE that none of us teach exactly the same.

I'd like to remind everyone contributing to this thread to maintain a spirit of openmindedness and to post constructive comments only please. If you don't agree with another post, try to express why without it personal.

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance had a lot of good insights to offer - particularly for gearheads.

It's useful to think hard about what you are trying to do, but not necessarily while you are doing it.

Better to just try subtly and methodically varying one or two things at a time in your technique, paying careful attention to the results, and trying to repeat what feels right and works well as soon and as often as possible so the sensation (of both the actions and the results) will be burned into your muscle memory.

Pay careful attention to good examples as well. THere's certainly enough good video of masterful riding online.

Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance is one of my all-time favourite books, I'm delighted you mentioned it.

Your points make great sense to me! Most seem to be more about how to learn as an individual without an instructor, and that's what many of us have had to do. Your final point is very important though, I think: some people learn REALLY well simply by seeing a good example. No analysis involved, they can simply watch someone ride, and copy it with very high fidelity. This is one of my strongest learning methods.

Thanks again to everyone who has taken the time to contribute to this thread!

Cheers,

Ian M

[b0ardski]

...and the turn will unfold with effortless perfection.

I dig it when that happens:biggthump

"...how to learn as an individual without an instructor, and that's what many of us have had to do. ...,

they can simply watch someone ride, and copy it with very high fidelity. This is one of my strongest learning methods."

me too

[Beckmann AG]

...but if you don't have the background for it you can waste a lot of time on uselessly incorrect analyses, as many magazine and webpage writers have demonstrated.

Indeed. However, I would suggest that Ian, and most readers of this forum, are more than capable of handling the concepts at the High School level.

If you have a grasp of said concepts, and listen to enough teaching, you will hear quite a few suggestions that make absolutely no sense for the context.

And if I read correctly, I concur with your notion of heavily pondering the data after, and not while, you are collecting it.

Find the truest, stillest place inside you where all is at harmony, and the event (archery) will unfold with effortless perfection'.

Obviously applicable to snowboarding. If, however, parts of your body are tied up with a bunch of reflexive muscular activity, in response to what you (unknowingly) created underfoot, you will have a hard time finding this place.

If one needs to 'try' to create stillness, is it really stillness? Better to systematically remove everything that is preventing stillness/musculo-skeletal harmony.

Do you believe that other skilled teachers reach a similar level of understanding by a different route? Something less physics-based?

Can you have a comprehensive understanding of something without breaking it down to it's individual components, and assigning proper relevance to each?

Just as important; can you take that understanding and do something useful with it?

What is it; "opportunity favors the prepared mind", or something like that?

What a given teacher does with their information is up to their judgment in any given situation. The absence of information limits their options, and thus affects their ability to provide lasting value for their client.

I'm not suggesting that we should all approach snowboarding with a slide rule and pocket protector, but having definitive answers based on science rather than dogma provides more consistent outcomes.

some people learn REALLY well simply by seeing a good example.

Visual learning certainly has its adherents, and advantages. The primary problem is that most of what makes for good riding is not obvious to the eye. The movements easiest to see and imitate are not always the movements one should be copying.

[BobD]

Do you believe that other skilled teachers reach a similar level of understanding by a different route? Something less physics-based?

There are many good instructors (perhaps most) who don't analyze movements in this way. They learn how something should look, they learn what common faults look like, and they learn how to apply drills to to help correct these faults. That is why, when equipment and techniques change, many sports with large instructor corps are very slow to grasp the new ideas, and why once a model is developed, it becomes dogma. This often flies in the face what of someone like Eric, would be able to see is an obvious truth.

[Jack M]

Obviously applicable to snowboarding. If, however, parts of your body are tied up with a bunch of reflexive muscular activity, in response to what you (unknowingly) created underfoot, you will have a hard time finding this place.

If one needs to 'try' to create stillness, is it really stillness? Better to systematically remove everything that is preventing stillness/musculo-skeletal harmony.

FOOTBEDS!

[Beckmann AG]

FOOTBEDS!

Well, yeah....

...but effective foot support can be negated by other things. And an athlete with good conformation can do really well without support if most of the other variables are addressed.

Effective foot support is different things to different people. I don't know how many times a rider has told me that they have good footbeds, only to discover that they would be better off barefoot.

[Ian M]

There are many good instructors (perhaps most) who don't analyze movements in this way. They learn how something should look, they learn what common faults look like, and they learn how to apply drills to help correct these faults. That is why, when equipment and techniques change, many sports with large instructor corps are very slow to grasp the new ideas, and why once a model is developed, it becomes dogma.

Well said!

[Ian M]

FOOTBEDS!

Agreed, Jack! Good alignment helped me a lot. I wear prescription orthotics that have a significant angle to them, and having a pair modified to fit my boots last year made a noticeable difference to my riding. I felt much more balanced and relaxed on all my equipment. The feeling of responsiveness from my gear increased as well.

I'm sure there are other larger issues, as Beckman AG says, that could negate something like this. But, if all else is equal, quality foot support can only benefit the rider I think. This goes back to good biomechanics and making us as efficient as possible, right?

@Beckman AG: how did you realize that someone might be better off without the foot-bed?

[Beckmann AG]

how did you realize that someone might be better off without the foot-bed?

Sorry, I need to clarify: What I meant was that the footbed was not helping, but actually hindering 'balance'. I.e, the bone stack was better with nothing than with something.

A better quality footbed should enhance stability through contouring and posting.

The typical design of a walking footbed is not suited to snowsports, as accurate support of the forefoot is often neglected in favor of posting for heel strike.

...quality foot support can only benefit the rider I think.

As a generalization, certainly. Plenty of circumstances though where tightening the link between athlete and sliding device has 'created' other issues.

E.g., 'Why are my quads burning more now?' 'Because the ramp angle in your boots is excessive, you are providing more input to the ski with a supported foot, it has become hyperactive in the forebody, so you move further aft to compensate. More knee bend=more burn.'

The boot was always an issue, it simply was not as noticeable prior to improving the communication link between skier and ski.

[pow4ever]

Here is my feeble attempt to bring this tread back on track.

Everything is on a converge sense if we dig deep enough.

Some aspect of religion can be prove by using science.

Some aspect of science need leap of faith to achieve it.

Nothing is black or white anymore. No more absolute; but we seek to strike that perfect balance.

engine tuning is an art. Too much power; reliability suffer.

snowboard making is an art. Too stiff or too damp is bad.

For me carving is very similar. When everything is just right; it's very effortless.

There is that tiny moment/glimpse of clarity. It's only you and the moment.

Taoist call it Zen(empty).

Buddhist call it Nirvana(nothingness).

Surfer's pipe dream

Too bad those moment are few and far in between as I butchered carving 99.99% of the time.

Book of 5 rings by Miyamoto Musashi is a great read.

It's similar to art of war so the contents aren't just apply to martial arts.

It also apply to business and in some case snowboarding :)

Earth Scroll “Rhythm is something that exists in everything, but the rhythms of martial arts in particular are difficult to master without practice... There is even rhythm in being empty... The rhythms of the martial arts are varied. First know the right rhythms and understand the wrong rhythms, and discern the appropriate rhythms from among great and small and slow and fast rhythms. Know the rhythms of spatial relations, and know the rhythms of reversal. These matters are the specialties of martial science.”

"This is why mastery of bujutsu is not quick. It takes a long time just to realize that there are rhythms, and then it takes a long period before one is able to attune to them."

I am sure there are gifted athlete that are so intune; they naturally flow like water.

Sadly I am at the other end of the spectrum. Seems like I have to put in so much more effort than most to just gain minuscule progress.

Proper equipments setup are crucial for beginner as it's the foundation.

We have to work extra hard and compensate for flawed setups. flawed setup lead to flawed technique and that lead to the perpetual intermediate boarder like me...

One of these days I wish to be able to take the steeps head on like a competent carver.

The more HB instructors our there the better.

Best of luck Ian. Very jealous of you to be able to pursuit HB teaching!!

I really do believe teaching is learning.

After I got my 1st degree black belt in kendo. My sensi want me to start teaching.

At first it BLOW!! Constantly getting hit in unprotected area by shanai isn't my idea of fun.

However after a while; I start to see the benefit of teaching.

I notice my own basic flaw and laziness and work extra hard to correct them.

It's one thing that I cheat myself; it's another thing to teach bad habit to other.

Thanks

David

[OhD]

Visual learning certainly has its adherents, and advantages. The primary problem is that most of what makes for good riding is not obvious to the eye. The movements easiest to see and imitate are not always the movements one should be copying.

Good point. It's easier to see movements than it is to see forces, and even the control input movements are pretty subtle and tiny in amplitude compared to the motion of board and rider. That's where having an instructor who knows exactly what to communicate and how to communicate it effectively to the individual student is of great value. It's not easy. The same situation obtains when teaching beginners - the movements involved in smooth low-speed riding with skidded turns are necessarily small and subtle or you have a learning opportunity and another bruise. The instructor has to be able to describe timing, intensity and location of forces that may result in almost imperceptible movement of the body and equipment, in a manner that the learner can understand and apply.

Observation, particularly guided observation, should make one thing perfectly clear to a learner: good riding is smooth and clean, with no gross control movements. Grasping that single idea will help a learner at any level progress. The dramatic changes in orientation of the whole body, flexure and extension of the legs need to be understood as inevitable reactions to what the board is doing in response to tiny changes at the knees and ankles.

Think of riding a bicycle at speed. A tiny movement of the front fork causes the contact patch on the front wheel to move to one side (to the outside of the turn), and everything else tilts the other way, toward the apex of the turn. THereafter the rider has to make even smaller steering adjustments to keep the contact patch aligned with the combined force vector (gravity and acceleration or "centrifugal" forces) until steering again to move the contact patch back to a position vertically under the rider and go straight again. The control motions and forces are tiny but the reactions can be many times larger.

[Beckmann AG]

Pow,

Long time no dojo...

...First know the right rhythms and understand the wrong rhythms, and discern the appropriate rhythms from among great and small and slow and fast rhythms. Know the rhythms of spatial relations, and know the rhythms of reversal. These matters are the specialties of martial science.”

And in doing so, one can move seamlessly in and among those elements which would 'destroy' you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but many forms of martial arts suggest the harnessing of potentially insurmountable force, rather than meeting force with force?

Seems like I have to put in so much more effort than most to just gain minuscule progress.

Funny thing about snowsport; sometimes the harder you try, the further you move yourself from the desired outcome. Consider that a journey of 1K KMs begins with a single step, and that single step begins through a momentary absence of effort.

[Ian M]

The boot was always an issue, it simply was not as noticeable prior to improving the communication link between skier and ski.

This makes sense. The rider and equipment are a system, and you always have to have some flexibility in the system, ideally in the appropriate places.

Earth Scroll “Rhythm is something that exists in everything, but the rhythms of martial arts in particular are difficult to master without practice... There is even rhythm in being empty... The rhythms of the martial arts are varied. First know the right rhythms and understand the wrong rhythms, and discern the appropriate rhythms from among great and small and slow and fast rhythms. Know the rhythms of spatial relations, and know the rhythms of reversal. These matters are the specialties of martial science.”

Not a feeble attempt at all, David! This is what I was hinting about when I was asking Beckmann AG about other 'more intuitive' teaching styles. I've personally had several moments of expanded awareness on-hill that have allowed me to ride at a level many times my normal ability. It seems to me that the head-space that allowed those moments to happen is most often attained through martial arts training, meditation, or both. Being able to ride at this level more often would be mind-bogglingly awesome, and being able to teach someone else to achieve it would be the ultimate experience in snowboarding for me.

Teaching at that high level often appears to me 'illogical'. Think of all of the odd, suprising things that martial arts teachers do in movies to 'awaken' understanding in their students. I had a great skydiving coach jump like that, where the teacher deliberately removed all structure from the lesson to force me to stop planning and thinking, and act intuitively so that he and I would arrive at the same time and space instead of me always 'catching up' to him by reacting. That was the best lesson I ever received in that sport by one of the greatest teachers I've ever met.

Observation, particularly guided observation, should make one thing perfectly clear to a learner: good riding is smooth and clean, with no gross control movements. Grasping that single idea will help a learner at any level progress. The dramatic changes in orientation of the whole body, flexure and extension of the legs need to be understood as inevitable reactions to what the board is doing in response to tiny changes at the knees and ankles.

Wow... great post OhD! Very well-said. Because these movements are hard to see, does it work better to discuss with the student what they feel? For example, how much weight/pressure do you feel in certain body parts during portions of the turn, what other things have they noticed. This might help increase their awareness of the many fine actions and adjustments that make carving fluid and seamless.

[Steve Prokopiw]

In those martial arts movies,lessons are often taught through fundemental skill building before the real fun begins.Wax on, wax off...

I've always been influenced most by people I've known who had a high level of mastery while also having a sense of humor and creativity in their fields and or hobbies.Though I don't play,piano comes to mind as an expressive outlet that is at once creative and skill dependent.

The holy grail for me as an instructor or coach is to help people develop proficiency aquired through a healthy respect for using skills to be creative and appear as if 'shooting from the hip';when it really is because they have a continually enhanced bag of tricks at their disposal due to skill building.

Of course,it's still gotta be fun :)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Book of 5 rings by Miyamoto Musashi is a great read.

It might interest you to know that current practitioners of the koryu (old school of swordsmanship) that Musashi left behind disagree with you - they don't think it's applicable to everything and anything, and they don't think it's even understandable without considerable practice of the techniques and also the background of the oral tradition that outsiders don't have. To them it's the technical manual left behind, deliberately vague to confuse non-members of their school.

More info here.

[Ian M]

In those martial arts movies,lessons are often taught through fundemental skill building before the real fun begins.

The holy grail for me as an instructor or coach is to help people develop proficiency aquired through a healthy respect for using skills to be creative and appear as if 'shooting from the hip';when it really is because they have a continually enhanced bag of tricks at their disposal due to skill building. Of course,it's still gotta be fun :)

Agreed, Steve. It seems to me that riding at a 'masterful' level requires a clear mind, which in turn requires you to know all of the basic skills of your activity well enough that they are automatic. Then, you really can have fun and start to be artistic will your lines and play with the corduroy canvas that you're given! :D

The question is: when might it be appropriate to 'shift gears' when teaching a student, and encourage them to expand their awareness outside of the basic push-here-do-that mechanics? Could this be the final polishing/integration step in teaching any new skill?

• Introduce & demonstrate new skill
  
• Drill and refine skill
  
• Continue drilling until the skill is automatic
  
• Shift focus away from the skill to flow, fun, creativitiy

[BlueB]

• Introduce & demonstrate new skill
  
• Drill and refine skill
  
• Continue drilling until the skill is automatic
  
• Shift focus away from the skill to flow, fun, creativitiy

You've got it almost right:

a) Introduce & demonstrate new skill

b) Drill and refine skill

c) Shift focus away from the skill to flow, fun, creativitiy

d) Repeat B and C untill the skill is automatic

[BobD]

You've got it almost right:

a) Introduce & demonstrate new skill

b) Drill and refine skill

c) Shift focus away from the skill to flow, fun, creativitiy

d) Repeat B and C untill the skill is automatic

If you make a little time for reflection in between those activities, the circle will be complete. Summary, or reflection is often omitted by instructors, or done poorly. Done well, it will cement the concept in the students mind. It also allows the instructor to check for misconceptions, which can hinder progress.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/learning/learning_cycle.htm

The Kolb learning cycle should be the basis for all instruction.