How long has "alpine" been an entity in snowboarding?

[Neil Gendzwill]

According to this link, the Air didn't come out until '89, while the Safari first appeared in '88. This jibes with my foggy recollection. The Sims Blade predates the Safari, IIRC I bought mine in 1987.

[softbootsurfer]

According to this link, the Air didn't come out until '89, while the Safari first appeared in '88. This jibes with my foggy recollection. The Sims Blade predates the Safari, IIRC I bought mine in 1987.

The Air was introduced to the Public in Fall 1987

The First Burton Air made Carving a reality...at least on milk groom :)

[scrutton]

May have been 89. It was 88 or 89. I thought 88 though. Alpine setup? Probably not, at the time people were using what boots they had. Sorels and such.

[scrutton]

This link says 88.

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=18466

Mine was the same as that in the thread. Blue color. I rented it from a store in Geneva, CH for a month, and used the hell out of it for that month.

[slopestar]

When did a rider first turn their back foot to match the angle of the front?

That's the question.

The first guys I saw who did this were the Sims team at Blackcomb for the OP Pro in 88 - 89. They were training on Whistler and I was asked to "guide" them for the week, as I was the only instructor there at the time. Seeing them carve affected me so much that I re-drilled my Kemper Aggressor that night and subsequently set off on a few years of great carving and average freeriding.

I too enjoyed my 170 Kemper aggressor with 3 straps. drilled mine out too to get 9 degrees on the back foot. just felt more natural than 45 and 0

[b0ardski]

Interesting link scrutton. I rode with Hyaker a few times in those days. His shop was where I saw those 2pc emerys in 87-88, he was euro carving on a scorpion in '90, the first time I saw what could be done on a real carve board.

Hyak was the only area at the pass that allowed snowboards when I first moved there in Nov. '86. That's also the 1st time I took my blue performer on a lift, using sorels with my skiboot liners. It was a very small board (134cm) for a full size adult.

Hard packed groomers were a challenge w/out p-tex or metal edges:eek: I bought the merrells next season for b/c tele, what a difference a good boot made for control.

[WinterGold]

I´m pretty sure that Jack is correct and the first Burton Air is from the 1987/88 season. But why are we talking about the Air? It isn´t an alpine board in my books and Burton already sold the Safaris in 87/88.

But some European companies already had very good alpine boards around that time and they were also already called "alpine".

Besides Hot, which I have already mentioned, there were companies like Nidecker (the legendary Gun series (e.g. Hot Gun 175)), Hooger Booger (the Booster and the Race (already Asyms - Hooger Booger already started experimenting with Asyms in 1984!!!)), Crazy Banana (Race 180 ASC) and even F2 had a board with a square tail at that time (the model was called "Have a white day" :D).

The first plates came in 1985 (Avalanche and Fritschi) and Raichle marketed their first snowboard hardboots in 1986. Also Koflach and Kastinger had hardboots at that time!

[softbootsurfer]

Time for a ...

[WinterGold]

The premise that a freestyle board, soft bindings and softboots were somehow the start of carving and alpine style is also just plain silly :) ...

It all depends on how you define "alpine". And if you look at the term as it is used now, nobody would consider the Burton Air an alpine board (although I see your point in that the Air was capable of carving).

@softbootsailor - Where is your text gone?

[scrutton]

Yeah I wasn't saying that the Air was an alpine board, but Burton offered it with the option of a soft boot binding and a plate binding.

[philw]

The premise that a freestyle board, soft bindings and softboots were somehow the start of carving and alpine style is also just plain silly

Not sure what's to argue about there.

From my point of view the early boards, which didn't have proper edges, appeared in Europe in the mid 1980s and they were ****e. So I waited around riding monoskis (which used proper ski technology) until boards came out which could be ridden on piste. The Burton Air was "the board to have", but it was way expensive over here so not really a contender. That is, it retailed at about £500 when a pair of skis cost £200, and European boards (brands already mentioned) were around £300. Earlier stuff - I remember a Safari with incredibly complicated black plastic "bindings" which looked just stupid when faced with your average European mogul slope.

Anyway, at the time the main "alternative" to skis in Europe was monoskis, which were fairly common. California's history is no doubt different, over here snowboarding didn't come from skate ("freestyle"/ "ballet" - whatever it is), people transitioned from skiing or monoskiing.

By the time the whole "asym" thing got going, people like Burton used the "Alpine" word to differentiate piste boards from half-pipe boards. Note that at the time the marketing end of snowboarding was half-pipes.... something which quietly died a death and changed to "freestyle" whilst we weren't looking.

So whilst I wait for these files to upload, my point is that "Alpine" has been around since they invented metal edges, from my Euro perspective. As such, it's been around somewhat longer than free-anything, and it's seen the birth and death of half-pipe already. My prediction you can already guess.... I think it's wrong to think of "alpine" (riding snowboards on all the mountain, like people ride skis on the whole mountain) as a sub-class. Alpine is snowboarding. Parks and pipes and whatever the marketing guys will invent next are passing fads, marketing-led fashion-fests for those who don't have the time to learn to ride properly ;-)

That was a long upload.

[BlueB]

...my point is that "Alpine" has been around since they invented metal edges, from my Euro perspective. As such, it's been around somewhat longer than free-anything, and it's seen the birth and death of half-pipe already. My prediction you can already guess.... I think it's wrong to think of "alpine" (riding snowboards on all the mountain, like people ride skis on the whole mountain) as a sub-class. Alpine is snowboarding. Parks and pipes and whatever the marketing guys will invent next are passing fads, marketing-led fashion-fests for those who don't have the time to learn to ride properly ;-)

Excellent post, Phil! Exactelly what I tried to say in my post on page 1.

[BlueB]

...Hooger Booger (the Booster and the Race (already Asyms - Hooger Booger already started experimenting with Asyms in 1984!!!)),

Here are the Grinder and Booster, both NOS. The Grinder is from the early 90' though - already with the inserts. Still a pretty good all-mountain ride. I absolutelly love the background graphics on both!

[WinterGold]

My post (#34) was a response to post #33 from Softbootsailor which he later deleted ... now out of context there is no point talking about it, but I don´t like deleting posts. So I left it ...

I almost completely agree with you philw ... the only thing I disagree about is the fact that halfpipes and parks are just marketing ... there are a lot of riders who enjoy riding parks and pipes and that is what snowboarding is about - fun!

BlueB - nice pics!

[b0ardski]

Softsailor does that lot when some one makes a point (see post #9-10), you always need to quote him.

+3 Philw, However I did enjoy natural halfpipes at Baker & Stevens Pass before they were much of a marketing tool, and enjoyed natural terrain way more than the hand made pipe at Hyack. That was before parks existed.

Alpine ski construction turned backyard toys into slopetools, For me plastic boots made as much of a difference to control & enjoyment as metal edges did:biggthump The same is true for tele gear.

[softbootsurfer]

The premise that a freestyle board, soft bindings and softboots were somehow the start of carving and alpine style is also just plain silly :) ...

It all depends on how you define "alpine". And if you look at the term as it is used now, nobody would consider the Burton Air an alpine board (although I see your point in that the Air was capable of carving).

@softbootsailor - Where is your text gone?

I really do not wish to argue the point any further...

I did not say they were the start but only that you could Carve with them...

Continuous Track on Groom to me is Carving...Carving is Alpine style, in fact I would say that I carved or was riding Alpine style on my

elite 150 after I added booster straps (the 3rd Strap) for frontside turns as the elite had a built in highback for backside .

There were many back then doing Alpine in Hard and Soft, experimentation was OK, there was no do it this way...

Your definition is different than mine and for this HB forum yours should probably be used...

The "Model A" was a Car, Formula 1 racing is a car and I thought King Crimson was seeking the origins of Alpine not just

HB Alpine as it is Now...as you suggest.

So Long...have a great summer :)

[b0ardski]

There were many back then doing Alpine in Hard and Soft, experimentation was OK, there was no do it this way...

Your definition is different than mine and for this HB forum yours should probably be used...

:)

Lots of experimentation goin' on in the '80s, and no such thing as an instructor to tell you do it their way.

The Duret strap bindings that I drilled to the K2 TX(squaretail carver) in '89 had a center disc w/quick release rotation. They allowed me to easily try all angles w/out removing screws. So I did.

I cut the highbacks & heel cup off'em & replaced it with a cable. Then I could use my ski or tele boots, cause I couldn't afford new plates, and the 2pc emerys had a bad rep & couldn't be moved w/out re-drilling.

My 1st real plates were sims/santa cruz "rotocants" I bought with my 186 nitro diablo & the sims fakie in '92 (made in Italy by Sportsystems before 4x4 was standard). They worked liked TD2-3 with a 0*,4*or 8* base, but were made mostly of plastic:( which did not hold up in the steep back-country of Alpental.

That's right, freestyle twin w/plates.

I bought standard and stepin burton raceplates in '94, and found my beloved :1luvu:nitro stepins in '96.

[WinterGold]

Here are the Hooger Boogers I was talking about - #4 is the Booster and #5 is the Race.

[Miltie]

Good thread King Crimson!

I remember seeing alpine boards say back in 87 ish but really started to see them in person until 88. The snowbaord magazines (Transworld Snowboarder) were showing boards like the Kemper, Flite, Hooger Booger, Look overspeed and some I'm sure I forgot about. Was in college living in Utah at the time.

I remember trying to carve on a K2 Gyrator 168 in softies after watching some dudes from Europe at Snowbird in the spring of 87. Finally got a set of Koflach Velugas (the pink ones) in 88 and borrowed a Kemper Aggressor with like zero side cut and Fritschi bindings. Got my ass handed to me on the first day for sure.

Got hooked up with some Swiss Nidecker riders living in Utah for the winter of 89/90. They taught me how to carve and got me on a Nidecker for the season. I had also 2 Kemper Agressor 170s with Emery bindings but it didn't carve as well as the Nidecker. The Swiss guys were on Snowpros which seemed so much better than the Emerys. I remember setting up my Nidecker Magnum 153 with like a 38 cm stance (narrow) and canting the bindings like 3 degrees. Binding angles were like 45 front and 35 rear. We even had heel lift in rear and toe lift in the front. The Swiss guys were riding assyms already but they were protos. I remember going to SIA in Vegas that year (I was a buyer for a local shop) and it seemed like alpine was the shiz. Boards companies like Kemper, Burton, Flite, Hooger Booger, Hot, Nitro and Sims were all getting into it.

Somewhere along the way I also had some Burton Rat-trap bindings but can remember what year - maybe 1990. I remember testing out the PJs with the Burton rep at the time and they seemed pretty good.

Graduated from college in June of 1990 and ended up in LA. Went to one of the PSTA races in Big Bear, CA (Snow Summit I think) in 1991 with my Nidecker friends. Lots of alpine riders at that time. Remember seeing Tom Sims and his crew - all on alpine decks. Think I was on a Kemper Asym or Nidecker at that time.

The good old days!

[b0ardski]

Thanks for the reminder Miltie, the Look overspeed was the 1st alpine board I demoed in '88-'89. It was only a 160 so a bit short for me. I demoed the k2 gyrator and the burton air in 88-89. They both rode well but were noodley compared to the springy tail of the k2 TX.

I demoed a gnu antigravity that spring too. I liked the ride, comparable to the burton air, but those early Elfgen "flow type" bindings really sucked.

No one mentioned the Gnu raceroom yet. I saw those at Hyak in 87-88.

Square tailed 180, they were definitely alpine but the foam cores had a lot of breakage issues. When the wood core Libtechs come out Mervin was on it's way, wish I had one of those asym litigators.

I came across a guy a couple times at Schwietzer this year who was still rockin' a '90 doughboy 200 with the skeleton graphic. It was mounted with burton variplates,and he was wearing 2 buckle rossi boots. Twin tip but definitely alpine.

I had an '88 kemper bullet 181 NOS in '92, what a plank and no side cut. My light weight Libtech grocer blew it away for every type of riding but downhill race, which was what the bullet was built for. I drilled the back foot 3 times to find the sweet spot, but the perforation noodled out the tail.

[Neil Gendzwill]

No one mentioned the Gnu raceroom yet. I saw those at Hyak in 87-88.

Square tailed 180, they were definitely alpine but the foam cores had a lot of breakage issues.

My Raceroom doesn't have a square tail, it's shaped pretty much like a big freeride board. But it was my first hard-boot ride, I rode it with Elfgen plates and Koflach Damians.

[b0ardski]

Guess I'm a bit foggy on that board, I never rode one. The tails was only slightly rounded and pretty flat wasn't it?

Is it the pink & gray one?

[tahoetrencher]

It was pink and gray with cow dumping graphics at the instep and a devo looking scientist with a beaker of magic goo on the shovel. It said

"Aerospace composite slopetool" if I recall, maybe 1987. I had highbacks with reinforced sorrels at the time. Board seemed too stiff/ not enough sidecut to work for me on the groom- more of a downhill shape I guess.

Thought about mounting the Emerys from next year's Kemper Apex(my first plates) but the Apex performed so well I never rode that Gnu again!

[Erik J]

Another way to ask the same question that KC asked...when did you first notice that there was a choice of board style? ie race oriented or freeride oriented

[Rob Stevens]

Another way to ask the same question that KC asked...when did you first notice that there was a choice of board style? ie race oriented or freeride oriented

I only saw swallow or square tails until Achy and Daffern's Barfoot Freestyle Twin.

Like Neil G said, the first board I ever saw or owned that could "carve", or at least store some energy for a bit of rebound was the Sims 1710 Blade.

SBS makes a good point about alpine being more of a sensation than a type of equipment. The equipment connection seems to be the rear foot angle leading to more symmetrical positioning and a much more carve-efficient heelside turn.

Plates were around at the same time it seems, but came about on their own and not as an extension of the back foot angle thing. The same can be said for mountaineering boots. They really came together when some clever rider figured out the power and stability benefits of plates, plastic boots and higher angles.

That would be when modern alpine started.