Riding moguls

[Rob Stevens]

We got recently some snow and resorts were on big giant mogul field. This again brought same old question. Way the skiers look better than we in moguls? What board do you ride, what is your trick for moguls? Do you ride valleys, peaks, or you just going down regardless what is a front of you? Maybe everything is just in the strength of your legs? When I talk about moguls, I do not mean bumps, but real stuff, knee deep irregularly spaced on steep. Something like West face of KT at Squaw.

KT at Squaw is not like the moguls in the video. While you can ride like that for sections, you will have to change it up and dictate the line yourself.

[Sooperburd]

Who's going straight down the fall line? You're skidding between every turn, with a fairly high degree of tail displacement relative to your nose. What I'm describing entails much more consistant carving, which means I'm going just as fast, but not as direct. It's just physics.

I'll get video this weekend. There's a lot less skid and tail wag than you think.

Again, let's see the video. I won't say it can't be done. I used to ride moguls like you describe myself. After a time, however, I found it wasn't as clean.

I agree. It's not as clean. It takes a ton of practice to make it clean.

any mistake will not be as easy to recover from and result in flailing.

Yep.

OP is original post.

Haha, I've been around forums quite a while and this is the first time I've seen that. I guess my noob-ness knows no bounds...:o

[carvedog]

I'd be perfectly happy posting this stuff in the Off-Topic sub-forum and not offending any hardbooters. From what I've read in my few weeks of lurking, it's waaaay to easy to offend some of you.

Some live just to get their panties bunched up it seems.

Anything to do with riding goes in the main forum. OT is for transgendered monkeys on bicycles and stuff like that.

Good to see you around. I don't care if you are in soft boots. Seems like you have some valid points about riding bumps.

Or at least some things to think about. I tend to turn on the flat or uphill part of the bump. And when I am in balance it seems to turn into zipper line bumps that I can maintain for 10 to 20 bumps at a time. Sometimes longer but I am hurting right now, so not so much.

If I turn down the backside the ride seems to get rather harsh and choppy. I like the slight speed check that the turn gives you before you go over the bump.

[Sooperburd]

Some live just to get their panties bunched up it seems.

Anything to do with riding goes in the main forum. OT is for transgendered monkeys on bicycles and stuff like that.

Good to know, thanks!

Good to see you around. I don't care if you are in soft boots. Seems like you have some valid points about riding bumps.

Thanks, and you guys will probably sucker me into hardboots at some point. I'm not opposed to it, I just don't want to spend the money right now.

If I turn down the backside the ride seems to get rather harsh and choppy.

Ok, this answers my question of how a hardboot setup feels on the icy, undercut backside of moguls. It's pretty much the same way the back side (I'm going to coin a term and call it the mogul butt) feels on softies.

I like the slight speed check that the turn gives you before you go over the bump.

Yes, it's quite a valuable little skid. I think it's easy to get into the mindset that all skidding is bad, especially if you live for laid, linked turns. Skidding has its place on the hill.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I always carve through the bumps, and look nothing like the alpiner in the vid.

I'd love to see you do it in any sort of serious bumps. I'm not saying it can't be done but I have yet to see anybody on skis or a board carve through a steep field of big bumps.

[philw]

I'm not sure what there is to argue about here. I've not seen anyone duck ride moguls, but then I've seen very few on soft gear at all, so I'm delighted to hear it works. You must get a pain in the neck as you've a long way to rotate your eyes to see the heel side line, no? How about the movement: what's moving where to do that?

For me if I get my GS board out then I'm pretty muck knackered for riding moguls. I can't flex the board at less than Mach 2, and it doesn't fit hugely well around the lines between the moguls. I can rest the tail on one and the tip on the next, but that's going nowhere fast. So I use my slalom board... soft enough for me to be able to bend it at mogul speeds, a nice kick to it, and a blast on easier friendly moguls. If I'm stupidly fit (that is if I've ridden 6 weeks every day or something) then I can ride slightly less friendly moguls, but it's still a lot harder than doing the same on skis, in my view.

Winter Park bumps are pretty good quality from what I remember.

[newcarver]

169 SG Cult AF700 40 30 angles, BTS with yellow springs. Can navigate hike to double blacks. Hard to keep speed in check even when going through the troughs. Uneven shapes and sizes make it difficult to get in a rythem. Very good edge hold with hardboots which keeps you from sliding out. Usually do hop turns with tail and use bumps to bank off of. Will tire out upper legs. Good way to build up stamina. Not really that fun, but will do to push myself and get to the powder field at the lower 1/4 of the run to let er rip.

[NateW]

I've heard this a couple of times. Can you really tell the difference between a 170 and a 182 in its ability to help you right yourself if you get leaning too far forward or backward? In my experience, if you get anywhere near the back seat, there's no righting yourself. You've got bigger problems. Maybe I do need to try a longer board.

I think some concepts got mixed up during the journey from my brain to yours... I think that "righting" ability has a lot to do with stiffness, and not much to do with length. At least, in my 170+ quiver it's the stiffness that counts. In the 150ish range, the length might be a factor, I wouldn't know.

This thread has got me thinking that I should find a stiff 160 and see if it's any more or less fun in moguls.

[Sooperburd]

I'd love to see you do it in any sort of serious bumps. I'm not saying it can't be done but I have yet to see anybody on skis or a board carve through a steep field of big bumps.

+1 I'd also like to see this. Maybe not even on a really steep section. Just some that are nice and rutted out, with undercut backsides.

[carvedog]

+1 I'd also like to see this. Maybe not even on a really steep section. Just some that are nice and rutted out, with undercut backsides.

Depends on the definition of carve.

On the 360 thread we have numerous folks claiming carved 360 but I haven't seen one.

There are many Holy Grails of snowboarding.

I did have a great day carving bumps on a 155 WC F2 asym.

Flicky little thing, it was pretty fun too, but I don't normally ride boards that small. And I don't try to carve bumps on my 185 Frontier, and my Canyon is too wide for that. The nearly carved for me happens more on the narrow waisted boards. It's easier.

[Sooperburd]

You must get a pain in the neck as you've a long way to rotate your eyes to see the heel side line, no? How about the movement: what's moving where to do that?

My hips stay pretty much in line with the board. They're twisted maybe 10° towards the nose of the board. My shoulders sit at about 45°, which feels fairly natural. My head is turned maybe 35°, so it's pointed straight down the fall line. It certainly doesn't hurt my neck, and there's only a very minimal intrusion of my shoulder into my field of view.

Winter Park bumps are pretty good quality from what I remember.

Yep, Jane has excellent bumps serviced by the Challenger lift.

My wife and I spend entire days hitting bump run after bump run. We're definitely worn out at the end of the day. But, like many have said, the better your mogul technique, the less energy it takes to ride them.

I'm going to try my floppy Gnu 160 this weekend on the bumps since that's the longest board I own. I'm interested in trying something even longer, but I don't see how that'll happen unless it's a full alpine hardboot setup. I'm just not going to buy a 170+ freeride board.

[Sooperburd]

I did have a great day carving bumps on a 155 WC F2 asym.

Finally some corroboration of my "155-ish is not too shabby in the moguls" theory. :)

[Sooperburd]

I think some concepts got mixed up during the journey from my brain to yours... I think that "righting" ability has a lot to do with stiffness, and not much to do with length. At least, in my 170+ quiver it's the stiffness that counts. In the 150ish range, the length might be a factor, I wouldn't know.

Maybe our mixed concepts explains everything. I'm saying (because I've never ridden anything longer than a 156 in the bumps), that whenever I get near the back seat, it's over. You're saying there's a certain amount of "righting" ability from those situations. Maybe the "back seat point of no return" is relatively farther back on a long board than a shorty. This would make the longer boards more forgiving when it comes to back seat problems.

This thread has got me thinking that I should find a stiff 160 and see if it's any more or less fun in moguls.

Please do! And let me know how it feels. I can't as easily try a really long board as many of you can try a shorty.

[b0ardski]

My statement was a bit bold.

what I should say is I'm always trying to carve an edge, not scraping down the back of the bump or slamming the undercut to check speed. I'm not talking about GS pencil lines either, But I do get the board high on edge & "pendulum" the board to either side of the fall line with a combination of cross under/over transitions & lots of flexion/extension to keep the edge cutting thru the snow.

The 167 kildyflex kicked a$$ in the steep, fresh coated, sun softened death cookie topped bumps on Schwietzer's face yesterday right down the lift line.

Consistent, equal full C zipper line thru the fist sized cookies that would be the envy of any mogul skier, with a couple of buttered 360s were it flattens out at the bottom.

When the troughs get too deep and "undercut" It becomes more work than fun and I don't bother or move to where the bumps are big/wide enough to turn & check speed across the tops.

I know, put up or shut up. Ive got a free ticket for anyone that wants to come to Schwietzer and see for themselves.

I am working on getting someone to use my camera to prove that a snowboarder can rip bumps just as gracefully as a skier.

[Sooperburd]

I know, put up or shut up. Ive got a free ticket for anyone that wants to come to Schwietzer and see for themselves.

I am working on getting someone to use my camera to prove that a snowboarder can rip bumps just as gracefully as a skier.

I didn't mean to be confrontational. I would just like to see this technique done. It sounds like something I'd like to try. ;)

[Neil Gendzwill]

Depends on the definition of carve.

On edge the entire time, pencil line except for the transition from one edge to the other, which should ideally be done in a board length or less. Same standard as on groomed, or at least that's what I think of when someone says they are carving the entire length of a run.

[Newmax]

On edge the entire time, pencil line except for the transition from one edge to the other, which should ideally be done in a board length or less. Same standard as on groomed, or at least that's what I think of when someone says they are carving the entire length of a run.

+1 on that!

[frunobulax]

I'd say it depends.

On a real mogul field like on page one with big moguls standing close to each other carving is not possible anymore, at least not for me. You have to go the zipper line if you want do get through it quickly.

The reason why skiers can do it better is IMO that they can go through the field facing the fall line. They don't need to rotate their upper body to keep control.

With a snowboard, it is essential to rotate the upper body in every turn, otherwise you cannot control your edge on the lower part of the mogul. Additionally, as long as you face the fall line, the flexion/extension range of your legs is limited, and you need every bit of that on big moguls.

Facing the fall line you would quickly become too fast, and eventually the opposed edge can get caught on the upper part of mogul, leading to a painful crash.

On "normal" mogul fields one can still carve, going the S-line like on groomers.

Stay centered, use the moguls for jumps or absorb them with your knees, then on a small flat space place your carve with abrupt initiation, preferably cross-under, and try to get through the curve before you cross the next bump. Try to keep your upper body and knees away from the ground because the mogul is always harder than you.

Additional fun comes from jumping over one mogul (when riding square to the fall line) and initiating the carve on the rear side of the next one.

[Sooperburd]

The reason why skiers can do it better is IMO that they can go through the field facing the fall line. They don't need to rotate their upper body to keep control.

Can't high binding angles achieve this?

With a snowboard, it is essential to rotate the upper body in every turn, otherwise you cannot control your edge on the lower part of the mogul.

I say don't control that edge on the low side of the mogul. It's usually icy and undercut anyway. Ride a flat board over this portion, straight at the next bump.

Additionally, as long as you face the fall line, the flexion/extension range of your legs is limited, and you need every bit of that on big moguls.

This might actually be the biggest advantage of riding duck (or at least really low binding angles)through the bumps: Tons of flexion/extension range.

Facing the fall line you would quickly become too fast, and eventually the opposed edge can get caught on the upper part of mogul, leading to a painful crash. .

Practice, practice, practice.

[Rob Stevens]

This thread (like many before it) is crying out for video from a few people.

Myself included.

It's going to come down to your goals:

-Top-to-bottom speed and a narrow corridor? You will have to be happy with a certain amount of steering angle / displacement. This is pretty straightforward when you consider that the posters who use this tech describe their front foot as going staight down the fall line. This line is definitely the most direct, but again, not always the fastest over the snow.

-More consistant carving, or "slarving"? Choosing a radius and sticking to it is the hard part. Don't want to edge on the downside? You might have to. You won't get to the bottom first, but you will be displacing the tail relative to the nose less. This is why the ground speed is very similar, as you'll be holding your momentum from the fall line.

In the first case, rapid movement through pivoting is the skill that is highlighted, while the second case requires more precise edging. Pressure control in both cases are important, but the movement done will create different results. In the first case, the goal might be snow contact at all times because if you lose this, you'll pick up speed very fast. In the second case, pressure control may be used to double up, or unweight in the carve to avoid edging through nasty spots. Both of these pressure scenarios are equally difficult to master.

So the point is, both are equally hard, but for different reasons and will appeal to different types of riders for the sensation offered by either.

Again, to go back to the OP... Is there a combination of both? Slarving and direct? Sure, but the pitch is the key element here, with equipment choice a close second. Even in World Cup skiing moguls, arguably the standard and what some beleive is the ideal line, they definitely don't carve, or even slarve, but rapidly displace the tails relative to the tips. Had a look at their skis? No sidecut. Why? Carving or slarving is too fast. They need to scrub off speed. Want to carve more in the bumps? You'll have to take a different and likely wider line... Even if only slightly.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Maureen has a precise,'pick her way through' the bumps and steeps technique that sets her apart from most of the very few women I've seen ride bumps with any skill.It has almost nothing to do with carving or a desire to go as fast as possible,but everything to do with control(a reflection of her personality:)) For now,much of her ride time is with our little boys,but as they get older and I start to take over with them(as per our unwritten family 'arrangement') she will get more ride time and it excites me to think of how proficient she may get in bumps when she has the time to ride more for herself.

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.

[Rob Stevens]

Maureen has a precise,'pick her way through' the bumps and steeps technique that sets her apart from most of the very few women I've seen ride bumps with any skill.It has almost nothing to do with carving or a desire to go as fast as possible,but everything to do with control(a reflection of her personality:)) For now,much of her ride time is with our little boys,but as they get older and I start to take over with them(as per our unwritten family 'arrangement') she will get more ride time and it excites me to think of how proficient she may get in bumps when she has the time to ride more for herself.

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix.

This is likely where our OP'er might be, skill wise, at this point.

[kmartshopper]

It's been my goal for a number of years to get really good at moguls and I've gotten quite a few pointers from this thread and RCrobar's old thread. I never put too much thought into where I was scrubbing speed on the bumps, but my eyes were opened by this thread. Last weekend, I started scrubbing on the uphill faces and tops of the bumps, instead of the downhill (icy) sides. Wow! What a difference!

Hey Sooper... was poking through that thread and couldn't find too much reference to specifics about scrubbing. That's my achille's heel... once these east coast moguls get firm and rutty, I can't control speed. With any soft snow, I'll go straight down Outer Limits at Killington. Like that guy in the video (nice job BTW!)... (only me in softies)... I couldn't do that cuz no loose snow... too fast. Put 3"+ of fresh in the troughs, and I could ride that that line np. Once "the hit" coming off the backside gets too firm and rutty - I do 2 or 3 turns and I'm going to fast.

Anyway, curious about your scrubbing topside technique. Realistically, I'm really only about the flow in the soft bumps - not out to prove my ability to tame unpleasant hardpack... but some days it's hit or miss, and I'd like to be able to tame the rutty spots better.

FWIW.... my eperience in bumps (which I love) with my boards:

169 Osin 3800 - Super fun with any new snow in any size bumps. Hard or rutty, the tail catches and the polar moment of inertia () is undeniably greater than a short board (for flicking).

161 K2 Recon - old, super light, super trashed, huge base bevels - the spoon... my most fun all around bumper (I'm 6'4"). So light an maneuverable that sometimes I can unweight over a big bump, and by kicking with my trailing leg pop the board heelside, then bring it back toeside again, before coming back fully weighted. It's very fun, and I can't see ever doing that in hardboots or a longer heavier board.

161 Donek Incline - Heavier, stiffer, less sidecut. This is my newest board and so far I find that it doesn't "flow"' as smoothly in soft bumps, and is more punishing in hard bumps. I don't have a lot of time on it yet though... so maybe not fair.

173 Donek FCII - I still suck at hardbooting on groomers... so another unfair comparison.

________

Body Science

[Sooperburd]

once these east coast moguls get firm and rutty, I can't control speed.

I just got back from riding Mary Jane tonight. I was working on the uphill-side mogul scrub technique (since I only started doing it last weekend). I haven't done it on hard moguls yet, but it seems like it might even be easier to do on hard ones than on ones with a bunch of powder right on top. The powder is always shooting out and blasting me in the face. If the snow were more packed, a good, sharp edge (or a Magnetraction edge) will provide a powerful scrub.

Let's look at a heelside edge turn with a mogul face scrub: The idea is to aim your board right at the big, broad face of the mogul. You let the nose of the board climb up the face, while absorbing the shock with your knees. When the tail of your board clears the downhill face of the previous mogul, kick your uphill foot out in front of you. The board will squirt out in front of you, and you'll be able to get a good edge angle with that heelside edge on the snow.

Because you're soaking up everything with your knees, AND scrubbing right there, you can really control speed. Your board comes to a brief, full stop if you want it to. During the skid, you also pivot the board and aim it right at the next mogul. Your body still has some momentum as you continue to squat into the mogul face, so you'll have enough speed to pop up over the current mogul and start heading down to the next one.

The toeside turn with an uphill mogul face scrub is a little dicier when you're using low binding angles. I haven't mastered it yet. There's all kinds of power and flexibility in that toeside turn, I just don't feel comfortable kicking my board out as far behind me, not knowing for sure if I'm going to catch that heelside edge. Certainly, harder packed moguls will give me confidence because I won't be worried about the heelside catching a big pile of powder and sending me overboard.

Once "the hit" coming off the backside gets too firm and rutty - I do 2 or 3 turns and I'm going to fast.

I know exactly what you mean. The thing about the uphill face scrub is that it allows you to ride an edge down the backside of each mogul, never scrubbing on the worst possible (usually icy and undercut) face of the mogul. I was testing this out today, and the more effective my uphill face scrubbing is, the less fear I have of just bee-lining it straight down the downhill side to the next bump.

I haven't done it on really icy moguls yet because the snow has been really good lately, but I am really confident that this will work just as well, or even better on icy moguls.

The huge added benefit of not scrubbing on the downhill face is that you don't waste energy skipping down that crappy, undercut side. It's almost a relaxing ride down the bumps, because you have the peace of mind of knowing you can control your speed on the uphill scrub.

161 K2 Recon - old, super light, super trashed, huge base bevels - the spoon... my most fun all around bumper (I'm 6'4"). So light an maneuverable that sometimes I can unweight over a big bump, and by kicking with my trailing leg pop the board heelside, then bring it back toeside again, before coming back fully weighted. It's very fun, and I can't see ever doing that in hardboots or a longer heavier board.

This fits my description of a good bump board. ...everything but the large base bevel. With my technique, I need serious edge hold to scrub that uphill face as much as I can. I also need good edge hold to go down the back side without losing my edge. Essentially, you carve down the downhill face of the mogul, so you want those edges to hold on.

[Sooperburd]

Jane got a lot of snow last night, resulting in somewhat nebulous bumps today. It didn't make for a good demonstration of the zipper line. However, you can see how quiet the upper body can be when you sight a long line.

...and yes, I think I was going faster than that skier.

Some notes:

Certainly these could be considered hero bumps, because they are waaay too forgiving with all the snow we got last night. They don't really showcase the zipper line because of this. I'm praying for crappy snow so I can get some real video of the zipper line!

One thing that is visible is the quick turning. There's no reason you can't make really fast snap turns and still keep a quiet upper body. Sight the line.

Another thing that is very visible is the pendulum action. You can see my board going way to the left and right of my CG. Again, sight the line as far ahead as you can.

Also, the (mostly) silent upper body. While these bumps are more forgiving than those on the video in page one, my upper body is MUCH quieter. Heck, even my wife's upper body movements are less pronounced than those on the page 1 video. ...and this is only her 3rd year snowboarding!

Oh, and I can't figure out how to imbed these videos directly onto the thread. A forum search turned up nothing. Can someone help me with this?

Finally, a funny story. The audio is dubbed over on the wife video because there was a dude on the lift calling out my name. He's an old buddy of mine and I feel like such a jerk because I had my tunes cranked and I couldn't hear him calling my name.