Question for Computer Geeks - Win 7

[C5 Golfer]

If Microsoft wants people to upgrade to the new Win7 platform why would they make it so that you need to install Vista first? ( if you are a XP user). I love XP - hate Vista as most people do -- that is going to be a tough sell in my ever so humble opinion.

Would it not be a better name to call it Loser7 -- not Win 7?

[pow4ever]

you can install window 7 fresh.

I belive vista requirement is for upgrade.

Install fresh mean: you have to back up your data, reinstalled your applications.

It's much cleaner and you will less likely ran into issue when do it this way.

[bobdea]

DO NOT UPGRADE!!!!!!

just do a fresh and clean install of windows 7 this is common procedure, particularly with windows products to prevent problems and have decent performance.

windows 7 is what windows should of been years ago, actually performs like a mature OS. I've only run the beta but I liked it better than any other incarnation of windows I've used.

the problem with upgrading is that you end up installing relics of your old OS and allegedly it can cause some serious hits to performance and security.

plus, windows does support hardware without installing drivers better than it used to.

[rhaskins]

We are going to upgrade/reinstall about 350 desktops from XP to Win7 *soon*. As a prequel to that, we are getting a couple days of consulting time from a firm that specializes in desktop deployment. Our installs will use the new MS destop deployment tookit and System Center Configuration Manager, but the initial testing for install will be all manual. We ought to have it all sorted out by the middle of November.

I'll get back to ya then, but our initial plan is to just grab and stash all the personal info off each desktop, store it aside, fresh install of the desktop in-place and copy the personal info back afterwards. That way everybody is on the same fresh playing field.

*soon* means as soon as some third-party software vendors get their software suppored for Win 7. Some of those clowns don't even have certification for Vista nor Win Srv 2008 yet - which means that we can't get support if there are issues. We have some work-arounds to do to eliminate some of them (vendors and their software). It looks like the full upgrade for all workstations will happen 1st quarter next year. We have been using the full release software for Win7 Pro since it came out a couple months ago, and are quite pleased with the performance and stability, much better than XP. BTW, we run some Vista Pro and Business, and have never had any issues, but YMMV. Vista brought huge improvements with group policy, and Win7 carries that forward with it's own improvements.

Rick

[Kent]

I hate to break the news, but Windows 7 is Vista.

I could go on and on and about how Vista is superior to XP (and other OSs), but that's a dated conversation. XP is nearly 8 years old and needs to be retired.

As for upgrade.

XP to Windows 7 = clean install

Vista to Window 7 = upgrade, although I'd personally recommend clean install

Takes around 2 hours.

Before folks start taking jabs...let's look at the alternatives. Open Source - uh...I won't discuss that upgrade/install process. Painful would be mild for an average consumer.

For the Mac fans, I would challenge any Mac user to upgrade from Mac OS X 10.1 "Puma" (released around the same time as Windows XP) to Snow Leopard in less than two hours.

Uh-oh...but wait! Puma ran on PowerPC machines, and Snow Leopard requires Intel processors. In other words, we'd challenge the most expert Mac user to make that upgrade at all. Tee hee...yet people never take the jabs at the companies which aren't helping customers get value out of their hardware (which is the majority of the cost of a computer).

Windows 7 is a great OS and the dinosaurs and developers whom are not keeping with the times will love "XP mode".

K

[MUD]

:lol:

[MUD]

Talking about win 7. Does anyone know if there is going to be a stripped down version for netbooks?

[bobdea]

yes, it's called XP

sorry, had to

is win 7 that big?

the beta fit on a single sided DVD if I remember correctly, was a pretty fast and was not a big install for a modern OS.

I'm sure it would not be too hard to customize a version with or without microsoft's help............

[C5 Golfer]

I hate to break the news, but Windows 7 is Vista.

I could go on and on and about how Vista is superior to XP (and other OSs), but that's a dated conversation. XP is nearly 8 years old and needs to be retired.

As for upgrade.

XP to Windows 7 = clean install

Vista to Window 7 = upgrade, although I'd personally recommend clean install

Takes around 2 hours.

Before folks start taking jabs...let's look at the alternatives. Open Source - uh...I won't discuss that upgrade/install process. Painful would be mild for an average consumer.

For the Mac fans, I would challenge any Mac user to upgrade from Mac OS X 10.1 "Puma" (released around the same time as Windows XP) to Snow Leopard in less than two hours.

Uh-oh...but wait! Puma ran on PowerPC machines, and Snow Leopard requires Intel processors. In other words, we'd challenge the most expert Mac user to make that upgrade at all. Tee hee...yet people never take the jabs at the companies which aren't helping customers get value out of their hardware (which is the majority of the cost of a computer).

Windows 7 is a great OS and the dinosaurs and developers whom are not keeping with the times will love "XP mode".

K

Seems I have seen this movie before!

[ursle]

Seems I have seen this movie before!

Is this where I get told

"Post of the day"

small version for netbooks...use linux :lol:

[MUD]

yes, it's called XP

sorry, had to

is win 7 that big?

That is what I am running now.

Neither are THAT big, but it is nice to be as efficient as possible with these little guys.

I have been toying with Ubuntu/Kubuntu, but it doesn't like my wireless device. I can make it work, but it is not very happy.

I would like to give W7 a try.

[bobdea]

what one?

there's a list of what netbook hardware is fully supported by OSes somewhere

try this maybe? http://moblin.org/ not used it but heard good things but it's specific to intel hardware.

also, you can install OS X on many netbooks there's a torrent of a stripped down version of OS X floating around thats less than 2gb even with most of the print drivers and localization files. if you don't install those it's a even smaller install.

performance wise though OS X and a cleanly installed version of win 7 are not that different. linux has been the winner for me in that catagory. I suspect that there's less background processes going on in ubuntu. for example I've had video lag in windows and in OS X but never with ubuntu on this laptop.

OS X has been better on my battery than ubuntu, any windows and a couple other linux distros but I am also using apple hardware so that's not exactly fair but also it's a pretty standard laptop other than it uses EFI instead of bios.

[pokkis]

There exist Tiny7, stripped version of 7 in net, fits on CD. Dont ask for link from me.

[C5 Golfer]

Explain "stripped down version" and which Netbook you have.

I've been running Win 7 on a Acer Aspire One with 1GB of RAM (upgrade) for the past 9 months. Runs like a champ, full boot in 15 seconds.

Use this link:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/get/upgrade-advisor.aspx

Like ANY computer upgrade, don't do it unless you need the additional value which the OS/program will bring. If you don't understand why you shouldn't be running an 8 year old OS, then by all means....either ask or don't upgrade. No reason to but that new flashy Kessler if you don't understand the benefits, right?

If you want to have a discussion about the added benefit, we can do that too.

Yes..I work for Microsoft. I also used to work at all the competition, so have a good understanding of what is really occuring in the software market.

I believe C5 Golfer is still upset that his 3rd party software provider has not upgraded their developments efforts to meet thier Microsoft certification. The sad part is that Vista has been out for 3 years and many providers still have not gone through the certification. While Vista did have a good way to run programs under XP, you'll be even happier with the capabilites in Windows 7. You can either right click to run in XP mode or download the free XP virtual machine.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtual-pc/download.aspx

Naw - I am not upset with 3rd party .. they certified Vista.. it was the fact the Vista did not support many drivers including USB thumb drives.. and that the $$MS Vista would not use a previous version of the their mouse drivers and the one they use took out the ESC key custom programing.. It was MS I was upset with. - Have a nice day. :)

[MUD]

what one?

there's a list of what netbook hardware is fully supported by OSes somewhere

try this maybe? http://moblin.org/ not used it but heard good things but it's specific to intel hardware.

Asus Eee, 1 Gig ram, Intel Atom based.

It came with XP home. Actually works ok.

It would be cool to find that list.

I'll check out moblin, THANKS!

[MUD]

Explain "stripped down version" and which Netbook you have.

I've been running Win 7 on a Acer Aspire One with 1GB of RAM (upgrade) for the past 9 months. Runs like a champ, full boot in 15 seconds.

Yes..I work for Microsoft. I also used to work at all the competition, so have a good understanding of what is really occuring in the software market.

I know Kent, you are just our local MS whipping boy.

I have answered what netbook I am running above (still can't get the multiple quote thing).

I would like it to operate to its fullest, and I feel XP home is not doing it. That's about it. I don't REALLY have any real complaints as far as the stock XP home goes. It's just out dated, as you said.

[bobdea]

Asus Eee, 1 Gig ram, Intel Atom based.

It came with XP home. Actually works ok.

It would be cool to find that list.

I'll check out moblin, THANKS!

here's the ubuntu specific one https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport/Machines/Netbooks

also some googling revealed that the xandros OS was included with the Asus Eee in some places intead of windows so I'm betting that's where you'll find the best hardware support. http://oem.xandros.com/netbooks.php

here's a torrent of the xandros software http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4345648/Asus_eee_pc_1000_Xandros_Restore_Disk

there's this for the hell of it http://uneasysilence.com/archive/2007/11/12654/

and a link to a torrent of the mini7 software that I've not used http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5039629/Windows_Tiny7_Unattended_Activated_CD_(x86)_-_eXPerience

[MUD]

Here is my ubuntu problem:

Asus Eee 1000HE

Wireless with 9.04 NBR has issues. The wireless connection sometimes goes off and on, will connect only after multiple attempts, and grab weak signal strength unless extremely close to the router. Installing backports can fix the connection issue but the signal strength problem remains. This model of EeePC uses different hardware than the Asus Eee 1000.

(But note that not all 1000HE's experience this problem. My 1000HE with Atheros chipset worked fine.)

Known issues:

Thanks for the other links Bob.

Sorry for the highjack.

[skategoat]

Hey C5, we prefer "guru" over "geek".

[C5 Golfer]

I cured the Mouse thing.. I use Logitech mice now which allows the use of easy ESC programming..way to go MS.

and my USB device -hmm seems also I remember I sent you links to various discussion forms that several people were complaining of the same thing.. when they went to Vista... Hard to believe that so many USB drives all the sudden would quit working across the big ole US of A. and they still work ok in XP.. I think my USB drive is ok..I bet it works in Win7. care to take that bet?????

I do have to say I appreciate your offer and your fine commitment to MS. Loyalty under so many harsh conditions is tough to do sometimes.. you do very well.

[bobdea]

I cured the Mouse thing.. I use Logitech mice now which allows the use of easy ESC programming..way to go MS.

and my USB device -hmm seems also I remember I sent you links to various discussion forms that several people were complaining of the same thing.. when they went to Vista... Hard to believe that so many USB drives all the sudden would quit working across the big ole US of A. and they still work ok in XP.. I think my USB drive is ok..I bet it works in Win7. care to take that bet?????

I do have to say I appreciate your offer and your fine commitment to MS. Loyalty under so many harsh conditions is tough to do sometimes.. you do very well.

ohh snap, Al put the smack down!!!!

the USB drive may not work in 7 though. 7 is really similar to vista "under the hood" but with the major kinks worked out. I actually did not have many issues with vista except it would suddenly get really slow for a couple minutes at a time and then be fine.

[C5 Golfer]

Someone offers help and you're a dick?

I did find the email. I went to the program team for Mr. C5 Golfer and found the product manager for Intellipoint. I sent along screenshots on how Mr. C5 could reprogram his buttons. Vista did require new drivers for his mouse and the newer UI hid some of the features (but they were still in the product).

For the USB drive, that's OEM error. Fairly typical for USB manufacturers to toss on 3rd party software rather than being stickly memory.

MSFT is an easy target for partner errors. In the end, it's all about customer experience regardless of who is at fault which is why I offered up assistance and will continue to do so for those who won't write bull**** 2 years after the fact.

k

I was not trying to be a dick.. sorry - I said I appreciate your help but I found loading a new driver and writing a macro to fix a small item to be a little out of line.. Logitech required none of that.. works out of the box, MS mouse did not. Found it strange the MS makes a mouse that worked in Xp and removed a wonderful feature when used in Vista for no apparent reason.

RE: USB drive -- I could not undersstand why all the sudden a USB drive of mine and others that wrote in several forums would not work on Vista and you wanted my USB drive to show my why it was at fault. If it works in XP it should work in Vista - my opinion. Soon I will find a computer with Win 7 and I bet it works now. We just have to maybe agree to disagree here. I think it is a Vista fault - you think itis a USB drive fault. If it works in Win7 will you still say it is a USB drive fault?

[Mike T]

I am a software developer who uses lotsa versions of Windows, recent MacOSs, and Linux.

First of all I would agree with Bob Dea and recommend that one NEVER do an upgrade from one Windows version to another - ALWAYS do a fresh install. I've never had an upgrade that didn't bite me in the @$$, even if it was a few months down the road.

With both Vista and Windows 7, the key to a pleasant user experience is to set the User Account Control to the right level for what it is that you're doing.

-on any machine I am using for development, I set them to the minimum level and run as an administrator. This is due to the fact that all the MS development tools that I use either run slowly or buggily with it on. (BTW this is not a problem on Macs or Linux... this is an area where MS f&*^%$g sucks donkey d**k. I am talking about VS2005 here. And please, don't tell me to upgrade to VS2008. We have a hundred engineers who all need to use the same version... again, if MS made the migration between versions of develop tools less painful, we'd keep current)

-on any other machine I leave it on, but set it low so that desktop dimming on account control events is disabled. The "dim desktop and force user to deal with the account control popup" slows the machine down immensely.

-if I were setting up a machine for someone who doesn't understand why things like User Account control are a good idea in theory, I'd leave it all at the default values and let them bash MS because their machine is slow.

Having said all this, I noticed that my fresh install of Windows 7, once tuned to my liking, has been noticeably better behaved than a fresh installation of Vista tuned to my liking. Windows 7 may be "Vista and then some" but it does seem like MS has fixed enough stability and performance issues to make it worthwhile to go through the process of backing up data, doing a fresh install of the OS and apps, and restoring data.

Please note that I have been using Windows 7 as my primary desktop at work since the day after the RTM build was released to MSDN subscribers... several months ago. The transition of QuickLaunch to something that looks and feels more like Mac's Dock is IMHO an improvement.

Kent, the comparison between XP->7 and MacOS 10.1 -> 10.6 is irrelevant. Seems to me that Mac users were never as unhappy with any Mac OS X as Windows users were with Vista. The two companies are on completely different schedules. The reason there is so much XP out there is that a LOT of people had trouble with Vista. I wound up going back to XP on my primary desktop myself, as Vista was just not stable enough and it got really busy doing nothing at the most inopportune times.

As a developer, I find that MacOS 10.5 and 10.6 "just worked" out of the box and I didn't need to spend a bunch of time tuning things like User Account Control. Their version of it, which is presumably inherited from the underlying UNIX, "just works, and doesn't slow you down". And xCode doesn't barf on it the way VS2005 does on Windows.

[C5 Golfer]

Has Kent left the building???

I found a win 7 computer to try my two "Vista failed -Works in XP " USB drives to test again.. Just wanted his thoughts about them when or if I say "If" they work just fine.

[Maciek]

I hate to break the news, but Windows 7 is Vista.

I could go on and on and about how Vista is superior to XP (and other OSs), but that's a dated conversation. XP is nearly 8 years old and needs to be retired.

As for upgrade.

XP to Windows 7 = clean install

Vista to Window 7 = upgrade, although I'd personally recommend clean install

Takes around 2 hours.

Before folks start taking jabs...let's look at the alternatives. Open Source - uh...I won't discuss that upgrade/install process. Painful would be mild for an average consumer.

For the Mac fans, I would challenge any Mac user to upgrade from Mac OS X 10.1 "Puma" (released around the same time as Windows XP) to Snow Leopard in less than two hours.

Uh-oh...but wait! Puma ran on PowerPC machines, and Snow Leopard requires Intel processors. In other words, we'd challenge the most expert Mac user to make that upgrade at all. Tee hee...yet people never take the jabs at the companies which aren't helping customers get value out of their hardware (which is the majority of the cost of a computer).

Windows 7 is a great OS and the dinosaurs and developers whom are not keeping with the times will love "XP mode".

K

Kent,

I guess you are still with Redmond ;)

And it is good that you said that Windows 7 is as you said just repackaged and slightly improved Vista. Some people miss that fact.

Now if you want to challenge me as pretty advanced Mac user and not an expert, before you do this ask yourself how many times new Windows release required change of hardware.... almost completely.

Do not blame Apple going Intel. As far as I remember hardware for Windows XP could not handle Vista and that's why some frustrated users made this movie:

Other than that I still have have PowerPC based Mac (one of few that i run in my home business network now) and it still would be capable of running Leopard without glitches.

Well, some stubborn users still think that use of computer is not about continuously playing with upgrades.

Supposedly Windows 7 is a great system, yet some have this Apple ad on mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk4FIIkKXdw

I have impression that your department will have a lot of work these days because of this user behavior:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiU1Gu14xG0

Hands full, right?

Have good runs,

-Maciek

PS> Single upgrade on Mac - and I have done this on few Macs from Jaguar to now - takes about 15-20 minutees and does not require to answer any questions... well maybe one confirmation. After reboot you are on new system version... version after version