Speed limits

[BobD]

Saw this and wondered whether it would actually affect us (if it were ever used).

http://www.ifyouski.com/news/newsarticle/?ObjectID=8769516

With all the turns we make, would gps be accurate enough to plot our real speed, or would it only see our speed down the run ? That would appear considerably slower than out real speed.

BobD

[Steve Dold]

I have a couple of GPS receivers and they aren't accurate enough to track our turns, they would calculate the average speed down the mountain, which is pretty slow for a typical carver. Unless you were making pretty wide turns, then I think they would work.

But they still need a signal. You could probably wrap foil around it to keep it from receiving the satellites...heh

[Arclite]

if they did track physical speed, we'd be screwed....atleast I would be screwed.

[bjvircks]

from the article... "It is not clear if the technology will advise skiers how fast they are moving to enable them to avoid breaking speed limits."

just think what it would look like if it were hooked up to a taser or something. OOPS TOO FAST AARRGGHH tumble tumble tumble. Kind of like Cliff Claven on CHEERS.

Actually, if someone were to put one in place, a localized differential correction system does make it possible to track carvers at speed. However I do not see ski areas implementing such a system because it would be VERY expensive.

[Sinecure]

GPS would be capable of tracking your speed, even if you are carving. But it wouldn't be practical. You'd need to constantly update the location points for it to work well. Its fine for cars, boats and planes, but not so good for things like us that accelerate and decelerate very quickly. I got the iPhone GPS app that's supposed to be most accurate to tell me I had maxed out at 90mph when I tried it this winter. That's off by at least 30mph, probably more like 40-45mph.

The problem with most of those systems is they are programmed to update every 10 seconds, 5 seconds, or whatever interval. Even a 1 second interval is going to provide inaccurate readings when skiing/boarding. If someone built a good gps and put a good accelerometer in there, then you could probably measure speed and other stuff (like airtime, impact forces, # spins, etc), really well. Until then, its fun to think about, but impractical.

What the ski areas could do easily though, is program your ticket so that if you swipe it at a lift before you should have been able to get to that lift, then not let you load. Either because it knows you couldn't do a lap that fast without speeding, or because you'd somehow duplicated your pass or were sharing it with a friend. There was talk about Squaw doing this. Would work like this: If you lap KT22 in under 15 min, the turnstile won't open because it takes X minutes to load/ascend the chair, its Y feet to descend from the top of the chair and therefore you must be skiing too fast if you can do it under 15 minutes. Of course this is just an invitation to someone to try to "beat" the system and get down in time for it to deny their ticket ;)

[Arclite]

a bunch of the local carvers though it would be cool to implement a speed trap on one of the runs.

Of course that would make people try to go faster and see what MPH they get....

Only 25mph? damn...i could of sworn i was going 40...

[Jack M]

Here in Maine the man can now pull you over and ticket you <i>just</i> for not wearing your seatbelt.

In 20 or even 10 years, the next driving generation won't consider this an outrage, and the nanny state will move on to the next way to protect us from ourselves. Then we can be sure to see it on the slopes.

[queequeg]

Saw this and wondered whether it would actually affect us (if it were ever used).

http://www.ifyouski.com/news/newsarticle/?ObjectID=8769516

With all the turns we make, would gps be accurate enough to plot our real speed, or would it only see our speed down the run ? That would appear considerably slower than out real speed.

BobD

Based upon what little the article indicated, I would think that it is a safe Assumption that RFID the technology at play here. If that is the case, only average speed could be determined.

On another note, I've always been skeptical of the claim that GPS recievers can accurately gauge the landspeed of a carving snowboarder. I know people say that they do, but I just don't buy it because:

a) the GPS unit would need to be able to updating positioning *extremely* frequently, accurately and without ever skipping a hearbeat. I have yet to see a GPS that does this well (though I haven't played with that many of them).

b) the GPS would have to provide accurate positioning information over the X, Y and Z axis (not sure if I am using the correct terminology here) to cover for inconsistencies in pitch; EG: it would have to construct a model of your line over three dimensions + time to determine your actual, accurate landspeed.

I don't doubt that a really high quality GPS could accurately determined the speed of a carver on the flats, making long lazy turns at a fairly consistent rate. But carving on steeper terrain, making lots of tight turns? I doubt it. I know a lot of GPS units can accurately tell you how fast your car is moving ... but while cars tend to travel in a fairly straight line, at a consistent speed on (fairly) level planes that don't undulate a whole lot ... snowboarders don't.

[Bordy]

Its not about messuring speed it's all about messuring G forces!!!

[*Ace*]

How about something that fits on your wrist?

http://www.suuntowatches.com/Suunto-GPS-Pack.pro

I think the GPS POD is the key here.

Unfortunately I think it is only compatible with the Suunto wrist watch computers...

Even says on their site that downhill skiers use it to track speed and distance.

Reviews say that is hard to use at first.

Good thing about the wrist computers too is that they usually have an altimiter and barometer functions.

Great for mountain sports.

[bjvircks]

I work for the company that basically invented GPS. Until my boss retired he had a big framed photo on his wall of the first operational GPS ground unit. It was the size of a present day standard size SUV. If you see any armed forces guy holding a military GPS, its ours (PLGR or DAGR). We put GPS into smart artillery rounds. I helped out a bit with some aspects of our SASSM (anti-spoofing version of our GPS engine).

You all would be VERY surprised by what a precision implementation can do. Tracking a carver at high speeds down to about 6 inches virtually constantly can easily be done with the right setup. Just bring plenty $$$, you don't buy this at Wal-Mart.

[Jack M]

I work for the company that basically invented GPS.

You work for Al Gore??

;) ;)

[Steve Dold]

Tracking a carver at high speeds down to about 6 inches virtually constantly can easily be done with the right setup

Would it depend on a ground transmitter nearby?

[bjvircks]

Al and I are BFFs! He comes out here a couple of times a year and we burn a lot of hydrocarbons and waste energy resources.

A differential correction site (fixed known reference point) is put into place where a good 'view' exists and and superfast multichannel receivers. This is similar in overall nature but far faster than a system I did some work on in the mid 90's. Our Ag-Vision system was designed to be placed onto farm equipment for helping a farmer understand his fields, such as soil makeup, drainage, fertilizer requirements, infestations, yields etc. The farmer could then use the info to tailor and control the application of things and planting parameters on a yard by yard basis. It was very cool to see in action and watch the improvements. However, at the time the overall system was too techical for the typical farmer to get his head around. Big outfits did pick up on it though.

[Jack M]

Al and I are BFFs! He comes out here a couple of times a year and we burn a lot of hydrocarbons and waste energy resources.

A differential correction site (fixed known reference point) is put into place where a good 'view' exists and and superfast multichannel receivers. This is similar in overall nature but far faster than a system I did some work on in the mid 90's. Our Ag-Vision system was designed to be placed onto farm equipment for helping a farmer understand his fields, such as soil makeup, drainage, fertilizer requirements, infestations, yields etc. The farmer could then use the info to tailor and control the application of things and planting parameters on a yard by yard basis. It was very cool to see in action and watch the improvements. However, at the time the overall system was too techical for the typical farmer to get his head around. Big outfits did pick up on it though.

Ha! I remember seeing a news story on TV about that! Cool. I would think ADM etc. would jump on that.

[nils]

"just for not wearing your seatbelt."

you mean its not mandatory out there???? It is over here since 1973 I think..( almost 40 years)..in the back seats i think its 1990.

Gee i think appart from my 1943 jeep i never drove without a seatbelt, it just feels too scary.

Its also such an easy way to prevent big injuries that i wonder why you would not wear it too..?

N.

[Justin A.]

"just for not wearing your seatbelt."

you mean its not mandatory out there???? It is over here since 1973 I think..( almost 40 years)..in the back seats i think its 1990.

Gee i think appart from my 1943 jeep i never drove without a seatbelt, it just feels too scary.

Its also such an easy way to prevent big injuries that i wonder why you would not wear it too..?

N.

That's not the point. It's that the police can pull you over for nothing other than a seatbelt check, and if they happen to see something that's not supposed to be there in the footwell, on the backseat, etc, they've got you. It's the principle of search without probable cause - the legal equivalent of pulling you over because they think the snowboards on your roof might be stolen without any logical basis for thinking so.

[Dr D]

:lol:

You work for Al Gore??

;) ;)

:lol::lol::lol:LMAO

[philfell]

That's not the point. It's that the police can pull you over for nothing other than a seatbelt check, and if they happen to see something that's not supposed to be there in the footwell, on the backseat, etc, they've got you. It's the principle of search without probable cause - the legal equivalent of pulling you over because they think the snowboards on your roof might be stolen without any logical basis for thinking so.

They can't pull you over for a seat belt "check". If they SEE you without a seat belt they can pull you over. And if you happen to have other things that are illegal in plain view then that's your dumb fault for having them in plain view AND breaking other laws that you now know they can pull you over for. They have probably cause. They just witnessed you breaking the law, it's that simple.

I used to think that seat belts should be a personal choice and kind of felt funny about laws requiring them. But when I add up the amount of money I've spent on car insurance in my life (I'm only 31 so many of you have paid considerably more than me) it makes me sick. On top of that I've never made a claim. So I can understand and now I encourage ways to keep cost incurred in auto accidents to a minimum, and seat belts do this.

So a few weeks ago when we were at Mt. Hood two snowboarders were driving up to the mountain from Hood River. It was about 6 am in the sleepy town. Driver had his seat belt on passenger did not. They got pulled over and the passenger received a ticket for $107. I will not provide names in order to "protect the innocent".

To the OP I don't think it will be cost effective for ski areas to put GPS monitors on everyone at the ski area. They are looking for ways to get people there, not drive up cost even higher then they already are and turn people away.

[Bordy]

I know several New England states set up Seat belt check, check points. They basicilly stop every car that goes through the check point, the reason is to insure motorist are wearing their seat belt, of course if you smell like beer or booze n such your going to get caught. Of course like Phil said if you are drinking druging or what ever you are breaking the law anyhow. seat belt or not. I have lots of NH friends that bitch about the seat belt laws. I am not sure why? whould you get on a roller coaster and not use the saftey stuff? That's whats going to happen if you crash or get hit. Upside down loops n massive g forces n stuff...

[Jack M]

"just for not wearing your seatbelt."

you mean its not mandatory out there???? It is over here since 1973 I think..( almost 40 years)..in the back seats i think its 1990.

Gee i think appart from my 1943 jeep i never drove without a seatbelt, it just feels too scary.

Its also such an easy way to prevent big injuries that i wonder why you would not wear it too..?

N.

It is mandatory in most states (these types of laws are at the state level), but what has changed here in Maine (and I assume in other states) is that it is now a primary offense like speeding. They can pull you over and ticket you for it, whereas before they could not unless you were also committing some other primary offense. It could only be tacked on as an additional offense if you got pulled over for something else.

The problem with this is not the intent of the law, it's the power grab. It is part of the notion that the government should be responsible for your well being and making decisions for you. America was founded on the principals of personal responsibility, among other things, and this is yet another step away from that. Slippery slope.

I used to think that seat belts should be a personal choice and kind of felt funny about laws requiring them. But when I add up the amount of money I've spent on car insurance in my life (I'm only 31 so many of you have paid considerably more than me) it makes me sick. On top of that I've never made a claim. So I can understand and now I encourage ways to keep cost incurred in auto accidents to a minimum, and seat belts do this.

Of course there is no argument against wearing a seatbelt, but your line of thinking is a humongous slippery slope right there, Phil. Similarly, as a purchaser of health insurance (and never making a significant claim), I could say it makes me sick that people choose to be fat, smoke, and be generally unhealthy while I am a relative picture of health myself. Should I encourage fines against such behavior, or outlawing it altogether?

And then someone else who is more timid and cautious with their life might look at the absurd activity of sliding down a snowy hill on a plank and say that it's reckless to do so at speeds greater than X and that we should be fined for speeding. Or that we should pay more into the system for even snowboarding or skiing at all. But of course! We danger-seekers are at greater risk of requiring expensive health care than someone who is more sensible in the winter. Right??

It's called freedom. The freedom to snowboard is the same as the freedom to think for yourself and be responsible for yourself and decide what is acceptable risk. If I need to make a quick trip to the store a half mile from my house down a quiet road and I forget or just don't feel like putting on my seat belt, in a free country I shouldn't have to worry that The Man might come around the corner and "get" me.

Besides, I don't know how logically you can simultaneously outlaw not using a seatbelt while permitting the use of motorcycles and scooters.

[MUD]

personal responsibility

That's been gone for quite a while........:D

[Neil Gendzwill]

I know several New England states set up Seat belt check, check points. They basicilly stop every car that goes through the check point, the reason is to insure motorist are wearing their seat belt, of course if you smell like beer or booze n such your going to get caught.

They set up checkpoints here just to check for drunk drivers, no seatbelt pretense required. Don't you guys have similar stuff, especially around the holidays?

[Jack M]

They set up checkpoints here just to check for drunk drivers, no seatbelt pretense required. Don't you guys have similar stuff, especially around the holidays?

Yes. But now they are also doing checkpoints for seatbelts. So I've heard, I haven't seen one myself.