Sharkey Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I thought maybe some of you experienced guys might be able to help me out a little, as my carving has suddenly stopped progressing. Right now i'm on a 168 F2 Siberfeil. It's a 168, and I bought it new about xmas time in 2004. I have approximately 25 sessions on the board, of 1-6 hours each. (I switch between this and skiing about 50/50). My problem is that I can't seem to control my speed and my carves on any slopes over about a midrange blue run, especially when the conditions are hard or ice. Soft snow is, of course, waaay easier. i have td2's, 68*F, 65*R, purple disks, and cant plates basically at 0* and my knees can almost touch. My rear leg/foot kinda gets a cramped, but not painful, feeling when i'm locked in. My toeside turns are descent on most any slope, but i gain so much speed on my huge heelsides that i pretty much end up hauling too much ass to get it slowed back down. I feel almost like i'm overpowering my back foot in the heelsides. I can push it into a skid at anytime, but on the toe everything feels pretty balanced and nice tip to tail. i've folded the front end a few times. Any suggestions? less angle? maybe more?? have i outgrown my board? It feels like it doesn't have the edge hold that my slalom skis have. I weigh 185. the board just feels like maybe it's a little soft. i don't know. I seem to be working backwards. I saw a few guys at Crystal Mountain (michigan) a couple weeks ago making perfectly controlled and layed out turns top to bottom on the black runs. I want to do that! I have some interest in riding all day, but if i need a board that works primarily on groomers and hardpack, i'm fine with a lack of performance in crud/etc., which i pretty much deal with already. Thanks guys, Peace out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvan Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 You can control your speed by turning the board uphill (or close) both on front and backsides. As you said that front sides seemingly work out well, most probably you do not push your heelside hard enough, so you gain too much speed, so much, that you end up not even being able to do the next frontside, instead you skid/brake. Right? Try to work on your heelsides, initiate the turns more agressively, push harder and then jump into the next frontside. There are many good drills on this website. Look at some of the EC videos, you'll see a perfect speed control (let's not go into the 'style' conversation now....) Speed control is paramount especially on black runs. On blues you'll survive even if you are not able to do it, but there is no way you come down a black run carving side to side and no skidding if you are unable to control your speed by turning properly. You can check your progression by looking at your trenches from the lift (if there is a place where you can do this) and you'll see the difference between your front and backsides. You could also try a better board, but most probably it is not the board this time. You can do nice turns on a F2 SP although it is far from being a great board. Kindest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 do your angles have to be that steep? to me that sounds like the problem you are having on your heelsides. too far in the back seat and the turn just opens up on you. I'd back the angles down a bit if you can't shift your weight a little more to the front on heelsides and it should help you tighten things up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBrad Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I struggle with the same problem, but have made some small improvements lately. On the toeside turns it is easy to bend the knees more in order to get the board higher up on edge, but on heelsides it's harder to get that high edge angle. You need to work more on heelside angulation. The drill for reaching the back hand to the front boot cuff helped, but reaching the back elbow to the front knee worked even better for me. Someone on this forum suggested that and I tried it the other day, and it really worked for me. Also, look toward the inside of the heelside turn. By doing this, my heelsides have improved a lot, to the point that now my toeside turns now seem to be my weakness. As far as setup, it's hard to tell without looking at yours. Your stance angles seem very steep, but a Silberpfiel is pretty narrow and if you have big feet you might need those angles. On my Madd 158, which is even narrower than your Silb, my angles are 63/60 with a 26.5 boot. Do you have then set up so that your heel & toe are right at the edges of the board? See the tech articles on binding setup for a starting point. You also didn't mention your stance width. For years I rode a narrow (16-17") stance with either flat bindings or a rear lift/cant. This season I tried a wider (19.3") stance with 3* front toe lift and 3* rear heel lift and I like it. A lot of people use 3* front and 6* rear, and I want to try that, but the 3/3 feels very balanced and planted to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxguitarist Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Two tips that helped me tighten up my heelsides were reaching for my front boot cuff with the back arm (for regular stance, left leg, right hand) and also making a point of dropping my hips into the turn, which really gets the board on edge. Important to remember that this is different from "sitting down" though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istvan Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 If you can reach the snow with your left hand (assuming you are a regular) during a backside without falling you found the good body position. (remember the backside Jack posted several times?). If you can do it with both hands, you already EC.... :lol: [Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that reaching for the snow or sliding on your palms is THE right technique, but if you can do it on backsides like on the pic I referred to, most probably things are ok] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I am not sure how my binding angles got so steep. I may have started to go steeper to stay a little more square with my board, but just went too far. I probably carved better before I started messing with my stance, and my heelsides were always better than toe. Only this season has it been different. I'll back them down and mess with the cant to try and set it up for a little more angle on the backside and just plain old comfort in the ready position. A solid tune up might not hurt either. I think my upper body position is good for the 2nd half of the turn, but probably because i'm fighting a poor 1st half and need to get back uphill to slow down. I'll try the drills and see where it goes from there. Thanks for all the comments. I knew the bomber community would pull through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkey Posted January 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 If you can reach the snow with your left hand (assuming you are a regular) during a backside without falling you found the good body position. (remember the backside Jack posted several times?). If you can do it with both hands, you already EC.... :lol:[Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that reaching for the snow or sliding on your palms is THE right technique, but if you can do it on backsides like on the pic I referred to, most probably things are ok] I am goofy, but on my best days, when i'm driving my left arm to the front of the turn, my front/inside hand will occassionally drag on a heelside. the back arm is nowhere near that side of my board, but ususally not behind my body in relation to travel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I struggle with the same problem, but have made some small improvements lately. On the toeside turns it is easy to bend the knees more in order to get the board higher up on edge, but on heelsides it's harder to get that high edge angle. You need to work more on heelside angulation. The drill for reaching the back hand to the front boot cuff helped, but reaching the back elbow to the front knee worked even better for me. Someone on this forum suggested that and I tried it the other day, and it really worked for me. Also, look toward the inside of the heelside turn. By doing this, my heelsides have improved a lot, to the point that now my toeside turns now seem to be my weakness. Something to think about....if you can reach your front boot cuff easily and that is working. Try variations. Reach for the board. See if you touch your ankle move around a little. Sometimes I think people can lock in a position and stop moving. You want to stay dynamic and keep retracting the board or slightly pushing against it or feeding it forward which would mean a very subtle and slow shift to the tail. Obviously all conjecture, but most of the time working with people who are "stuck" there needs to be more movement somewhere. Spine, knees, hip it is just a matter of figuring out where you are blocking yourself. And if you are not getting pretty stretched out and tall ( doesn't have to be straight up just stretched ) you are not taking advantage of the full range of movement available to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuff Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Hey Sharkey! FWIW - I grew up in Ludington, MI and used to ride Crystal quite a bit growing up. Runs "Loki" and "Buck" were my two favorites. >My problem is that I can't seem to control my speed. My toeside turns are descent on most any slope, but i gain so much speed on my huge heelsides. Some good tips so far. I think you should start first by setting up your gear to be more comfortable, then address this speed control issue. Gear: I'm from the school of thought that you can make just about anything carve. While the Silberfeil is a bit on the soft side, it's still a decent freecarving board. 68° does seem like pretty high angles. Like others suggested, check to see if you can lower that angle without boot overhang. Think I'm riding 57°F,54°Rear on my F2 Speedster boards with Mondo 28 boots and no overhang. Riding 54°-both on my wider boards. Riding: Hard to diagnose what's really going on without seeing you ride, (post some video if you can) but let re-cap what I think you are saying and see if it makes sense. It sounds like your toe-side turns are okay, and are tighter radius than your heel side turns. The heel side turn however is building more speed than you want and you think you are pressuring the board less, which is making a larger radius. (straighter down the hill) Are you fully completing your toe side turns? ... heel side turns? Remember that cutting across the fall-line will shed more speed. Skidding happens for many reasons.. It could be that you are going too fast and instinct is telling you to slow down, or you might be getting a bit impatient - rotating your body and board into the turn first and THEN adding edge pressure. Try to think through your successful toe turns, and then mirror the board action for heel. The NORM article on this site addresses this well and how to ride/rail the full edge of the board the full length of the turn. Carving on on Michigan ice is tricky.. one of the keys I've found is holding a lighter but constant edge pressure throughout the turn. Mental: I've said thousands of times now, but you have to "Keep looking up, and looking ahead" while carving, like you would in any other speed/race related sport. Looking where you are going and through the turn will better prepare you mentally for obstacles ahead. Will also give you better sense of speed, as watching the snow passing under, or just 6 feet ahead of your board make you feel like your going wicked-fast. Happy carving! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vahur Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Years ago I was witness for same problems: one guy who just started riding rode quite well on toesides but on heelsides it was more problematic, somewhat similar to OP problems: long turns ending with skidding. I took with my camera sequences and stitched them together. Here they are, hopefully someone with more experience can comment and point out issues from these sequences, maybe it could help OP and others. P.S. I post links to images instead embedding them, as they are very wide, >5000 pix and embedding would probably destroy readability of thread. Sizes are 600 and 700 kB. P.P.S. Hopefully rider does not mind, to his praise I have to add that his riding is up to another level (now well above mine) and he goes without problems on EC-qualified black slopes, both toeside and heelside. http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk1.jpg http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxguitarist Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 Years ago I was witness for same problems: one guy who just started riding rode quite well on toesides but on heelsides it was more problematic, somewhat similar to OP problems: long turns ending with skidding. I took with my camera sequences and stitched them together. Here they are, hopefully someone with more experience can comment and point out issues from these sequences, maybe it could help OP and others.P.S. I post links to images instead embedding them, as they are very wide, >5000 pix and embedding would probably destroy readability of thread. Sizes are 600 and 700 kB. P.P.S. Hopefully rider does not mind, to his praise I have to add that his riding is up to another level (now well above mine) and he goes without problems on EC-qualified black slopes, both toeside and heelside. http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk1.jpg http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk2.jpg I may not be any more experienced, but it's easy to see that the rider in these photos is sitting down, bending the knees and waist in the wrong combination, and not getting any angulation on the heelsides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xy9ine Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 I may not be any more experienced, but it's easy to see that the rider in these photos is sitting down, bending the knees and waist in the wrong combination, and not getting any angulation on the heelsides yeah. seems to be a standard issue with new carvers unaccustomed to steep binding angles - and i speak from experience, having transitioned from a duckfoot softboot setup to alpine last year. for me, it was hard to overcome my well-established tendency to keep my body perpendicular to the board, thus heelsides have been problematic. there's lots of helpful discussion on this issue on this board - a great resource. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxguitarist Posted January 12, 2009 Report Share Posted January 12, 2009 http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=23482 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Staying totally hooked up on an honest "Blue" run isn't exactly a gimmie for 99.9% of skiers and snowboarders so the bar is pretty high to begin with. I'm sure you know this but a "turn" is 180 degrees, gotta get every turn completed before diving into the next one or in a turn or two it's "****, I'm bookin' now!" You mentioned knees close together. I widened my stance this year and I feel like I am really in an aggressive "attack" position, knees apart, ready for action. Wider stance maybe? Carvedog gave me the best tip so far....on heelsides it's OK to touch the snow with your right hand as long as you touch it with your left hand first (I'm goofy) and on the toesides it's OK to touch the snow with your left hand as long as you touch it first with your right hand. I love the EC style and it was fostering all kinds of bad habits LOL. Nothing wrong with a soft board but the comment about it not holding as well as your SL skis....I've been on plenty of SL skis and the alpine boards I have been on (donek fcII 171, blade 180 med, axess 182, axes 172, custom GS (can't remember specs)) have all held as well as any SL board. Can you take some runs on the boards of the guys who are cutting up the black diamonds? And finally, philosophically, if you can rail it in good conditions and have trouble only in "ball bearings over refreeze" then embrace it, look forward to it, and work towards mastering it. The best riders can rip it in those conditions, riding in those conditions gives you the opportunity to learn to rip it as well. Tough conditions are tough, but that's when you have the most to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnovak Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Good advice so far -- anyone have any specific heelside drills that can be practiced on greens and easy blues? Drills that one could practice without having to do full linked turns so one can focus just on the heelside? Many thanks for any thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk1.jpg http://carving.grewu.org/misc/hk2.jpg How do you get photos like that?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Good advice so far -- anyone have any specific heelside drills that can be practiced on greens and easy blues? Drills that one could practice without having to do full linked turns so one can focus just on the heelside?Many thanks for any thoughts! A garland would be great! But it's impossible to describe in words. OK, I'll try.... 1 find a wide run 2 start a traverse on your heel side 3 engage your toeside edge and carve towards the fall line 4 before you reach it move back to the heelside and crank a turn back to a traverse 5 then repeat as you get better, make the toeside turn longer so you get more into the fall line....then past it....then gradually blend it into a regular "turn" this way you can practice the easiest part of the heelside first....a lot.....and gradually make it more difficult and "like real snowboarding" over time Just don't forget all of those heelside tips everybody threw out there :) LOL, proof you can't describe it. Help me out guys :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxguitarist Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Reaching for the boot cuff and dropping your hips (not ass) into the turn are the two big drills for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Wow, those are some crazy high angles. Makes it very difficult to ride, IMO. Also, what is your stance width? Edit: Just saw that your knees can almost touch. That's not a good thing. You want a big wide base that provides stability, with your hips at the apex, not your knees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groovastic Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I have a similar problem. But I guess my problem is that I lean my butt first and then my knees (only in my back side turn) and since my left leg is quite weak after the knee surgery, I feel like I simply can't push my knees first and after that my butt! Or maybe I'm just afraid because of my knee... :o What should I do? How can I make this right? Cheers and sorry for OT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 groovastic...short answer...make the knee stronger.... Long answer....I had reconstructive/repair surgery on my right ankle in september....since december I've been free to quit Physical Therapy to return to my "normal" activity...so of course I went skateboarding and snowboarding...and then I went back to my Physical theRapist because although I didn't have to go I still needed some help strengthening my ankle/foot/calf. Of course I hurt more now but on the bright side I have lots more strength and trust in my ankle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vahur Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 How do you get photos like that?? Everything I know I have learned here :D Well, maybe not everything, but Time-lapse photo techniques for sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBrad Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I have a similar problem. But I guess my problem is that I lean my butt first and then my knees (only in my back side turn) What should I do? How can I make this right? At SES last year I was struggling with the transition from toeside to heelside. Sean suggested that I pressure the front foot to initiate the transition. This made no sense to me because pressuring the front foot would put more pressure on the toeside edge rather than shifting pressure to the heelside edge. But I tried it and found that it actually helped. The motion is pushing forward and down with your front knee then rolling toward the heelside edge. This might help to prevent leaning your butt out by initiating the turn with your feet and knees. Then look toward the inside of the turn and reach your back elbow toward your front knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groovastic Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 At SES last year I was struggling with the transition from toeside to heelside. Sean suggested that I pressure the front foot to initiate the transition. This made no sense to me because pressuring the front foot would put more pressure on the toeside edge rather than shifting pressure to the heelside edge. But I tried it and found that it actually helped. The motion is pushing forward and down with your front knee then rolling toward the heelside edge. This might help to prevent leaning your butt out by initiating the turn with your feet and knees. Then look toward the inside of the turn and reach your back elbow toward your front knee. Yes. That's something I've been trying to do, but untill seeing myself on a video, I was sure I was doing it right.. :( So I should just pressure the front foot even more, and that should be it.. I hope my knee will be OK with it Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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