Tinkler Rocketman

[bschurman]

A racer friend of mine who wants to remain anonymous asked me to post this for him...

Jack,

A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes (even if it's been tried before and failed.)

I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith.

Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group.

I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want.

Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.)

Regards,

Martin

"I recall racing against Mr Fawcett in the qualifying race for Nagano Olympics and he was on a board a whole mighty lot similar to the current design and most likely uses similar materials that Tinkler is now doing . Sounds to me like its neither radically different or a very proven design as it somewhat went into hibernation for 10 yrs or so."

[Shred Gruumer]

As The Camber Carves.!!!

We Want More!!!

[Steve Prokopiw]

Yeah a board built with rocker will have a shape designed around it and a flex pattern for it as well.

A board ridden until it lost it's camber will just be flat not really rockers at all. And chance are it will be twisted also which will mean that it won't hold heelside as well anymore.

To pre-empt what I mean by not holding heel side as well any more. Every old board I've seen when it has lost it's camber has also twisted slightly. If you are regular and put the board on the ground with the both edges of the tail touching the ground the toeside edge of the nose will be twisted off the ground. This means when you to to the heel side edge the nose of your board will have a slightly higher edge angle then the tail of your board. Causing the tail not to grip as well and slid.

I realize I don't have credibility here but I know a little and this is what I was getting at.A board's characteristics can be built into it through means other than just camber or lack thereof.Very different than an old worn out board with no camber or life in left in it.

[Bullwings]

very interesting and fun thread to read through. most of it goes way over my head since i'm hardly an intermediate carver and will never race.

but hey, it's not summer anymore, and most of the country has had a crap load of snowfall. really? 10 pages with this kind of weather and conditions?

so, does anyone here still snowboard?? haha jk

keep it coming. this makes for some great reading - the economy is boring now (summary - it sucks, we're screwed... come back in about 8+ months).

[Bruce Varsava]

I realize I don't have credibility here but I know a little and this is what I was getting at.A board's characteristics can be built into it through means other than just camber or lack thereof.Very different than an old worn out board with no camber or life in left in it.

As long as you are thinking about it and have basic understanding of board function, your comment is certainly credible.

My feeling is that an old worn out board can at least give a hint of what things would be like as it has something close to the shape but maybe not the stiffness however that is a variable anyways. Certainly there are boards out there with a stiffer nose/tail that have been flattened out so they may well be closer to the desired design for the different camber. Somewhere back in this thread I was joking with a local rider who got the AM I bent the tail on and he still finds it OK as he is about 50 lbs lighter than me. By todays standards those boards had stiffer tip/tail so it may be a bit more valid although still a crude comparison.

Over the years and working with different levels of camber, the rule seems to be that the higher the camber, the softer the board, especially the mid section. If you think about it, the camber raises the mid of the board a lot more than the tip and tail so you need to thin the core in the mid to be able to bend it into the desired arc. Thinner= softer , softer =better on ice as it is more supple. Of course taken to extremes wacky things start happening. Hi cam and stiff I find are tough to ride, so you go softer, too soft sucks too as now you are on a noodle that you can bend a long way but not too much support as it can also overbend.

Going lower camber the mid needs to be thicker and stiffer to get end pressure and rebound. Thicker =stiffer,stiffer = no good on ice. Now if you soften it, you end up with the noodle again but a flatter one. Take this to the extreme the other way towards a flat board and I would have to speculate that the mid would need to be real stiff. Real stiff is a bit of a pain as it just does not bend into a wide range of arcs.

Tip and tails are another issue as the measurements don't really change much there even though you mess around with the mid section . I did find I had to thicken them a bit in higher cam boards as there is a bit more active end pressure so if they were left too soft, when you really pushed the hi cam mid, they would bend a bit too much. So if I follow this, that is where speculation gets funky as with flatter boards it would indicate you need real soft but that is if you want them to bend from flat . With reverse camber, they can be stiffer as they are already pre bent. Stiffer as mentioned earlier I find not too supple and has less of an active range so I feel the boards ability to automatically adjust to slope conditions would be limited.

Anyways, mostly speculation and theory so no way of really knowing till a few people try them and give unbiased feedback.

So all in all, despite the odd bit of squabbling on this thread, it has been a very good thought provoker with loads of good input.

Its Xmas eve and I still have to build one whacked out board today for that f*%$ing Shred Gruumer a**hole before I can start my Xmas shopping so I better get to it.

Hope all maintain the spirit of the season and of our sport despite the differences of opinions. No matter what ones thought or opinions are, I know myself and pretty much all others here would never have a problem putting down a few ruts and raising a glass with our hard bootin brothers and sisters.

Cheers, BV

[GeoffV]

No matter what ones thought or opinions are, I know myself and pretty much all others here would never have a problem putting down a few ruts and raising a glass with our hard bootin brothers and sisters.

Cheers, BV

I'll to that

<A href=http://www.moppo.net/><IMG SRC=http://www.moppo.net/links/478312001230125433-final.gif border=0></A>

[Zone]

Certainly there are boards out there with a stiffer nose/tail that have been flattened out so they may well be closer to the desired design for the different camber. Somewhere back in this thread I was joking with a local rider who got the AM I bent the tail on and he still finds it OK as he is about 50 lbs lighter than me. By todays standards those boards had stiffer tip/tail so it may be a bit more valid although still a crude comparison.

Bruce,

I'll bring a flattened out stiff nose/tail AM to Barrie for you to test drive sometime! Hell, I used it at the Ontario Masters last year, and my times were faster than all the women, so the board does work. I have not owned/tested enough boards to tell what's what.

Happy shopping and Merry Xmas.

[philfell]

Just taking Bruces words and some concepts of some others about why camber is needed.

The general thought here is if you take away the camber tip and tail pressure is lost. I'll give you that when the board is flat or only a little bit on edge. But honestly when are you really riding flat based, this isn't SBX it's carving.

So going by this general thought, more camer equals more tip/tail pressure, and a better board.

According to Bruce, an extremely good board builder, he has found that with high camber boards you need to make them softer under feet than low camber boards. So using this logic I would assume that tip and tail pressure is similar between a high camber soft board and a low camber stiff board. So camber isn't the only thing in regards to tip/tail pressure.

Bruce also said that soft is better on ice than stiff. You can't get away with extra pressure on ice because it can't hold as much. So on ice why would a board that you have to push through camber and put extra pressure to bend it even more be a benifit in these conditions?

Again I'm not saying everyone should sell their cambered boards, but I still beleive there are some times when a rockered board would be great. Considering how many east coasters are here and they are always stating how they are riding on frozen tundra super bad ice, that we can't even phathom on the west coast.

[Gecko]

Considering how many east coasters are here and they are always stating how they are riding on frozen tundra super bad ice, that we can't even phathom on the west coast.

I like to use the word "crisp" or "crispy" to describe conditions that require fore thought to setting you edges.

way back when....my flite factory days....we had a 200cm that was set up light on the core and it slipped in the mold essentially decambering the nose (not rocker but flat) and because it was thinner it had reduced edge hold. Not wanting to lose a board Stevie designed a carbon and fiberglass adjustable leaf spring and bolted to the nose. This turned out to be exactly what the board needed as gave you control over the front that was otherwise missing

[Bruce Varsava]

Just taking Bruces words and some concepts of some others about why camber is needed.

The general thought here is if you take away the camber tip and tail pressure is lost. I'll give you that when the board is flat or only a little bit on edge. But honestly when are you really riding flat based, this isn't SBX it's carving.

Ever been on a long cat track to get from one hill to the next. I've been on some huge long ones as anyone has, all part of riding. I would say you probably carve 50 to 70% of any given hill, so there is a lot of time when you are not carving.

So going by this general thought, more camer equals more tip/tail pressure, and a better board.

Its 3 dimensional as you mention below

According to Bruce, an extremely good board builder, he has found that with high camber boards you need to make them softer under feet than low camber boards. So using this logic I would assume that tip and tail pressure is similar between a high camber soft board and a low camber stiff board. So camber isn't the only thing in regards to tip/tail pressure.

Bruce also said that soft is better on ice than stiff. You can't get away with extra pressure on ice because it can't hold as much. So on ice why would a board that you have to push through camber and put extra pressure to bend it even more be a benifit in these conditions?

No extra pressure may be required as its 3d as you mention above. I think it is agreed that the tip, tail and even mid section would need to be a bit stiffer on a decam board so if you wanted at all to tighten an arc, it could require more pressure on the decam with the added stiffness. Your statement assumes the flex on either would be somewhat similar and in that case, the decam would have a real dead feel to it with no camber and no stiffness. Yeah, then it would take less pressure but be a real noodle throughout.

I feel that you are of course not locked into a single arc all the time and the stiffer tip/tail would not be as supple and accepting of the changes from rider input or especially varied terrain. Kinda like a shock absorber with more travel , you have better contact with the road. Anything with stiffness and less travel just does not sound advantageous to me. Besides if you had to ride flat a bit on ice, you'd really be up the creek as without tip/tail pressure, body movements would have to be exaggerated to start a turn so you'd miss a gate, hit a tree etc.

Again I'm not saying everyone should sell their cambered boards, but I still beleive there are some times when a rockered board would be great. Considering how many east coasters are here and they are always stating how they are riding on frozen tundra super bad ice, that we can't even phathom on the west coast.

I've ridden higher, ridden lower and for me I'm happy right in the middle.

The decams be fun and interesting but can't see a decent range and enough rebound to get me excited in what conditions we ride alpine in the most.

BV