Ok now I'm really poopy

[Dr D]

Unless you have a control leg presenting with the same trauma to use without the herbal pack, against which to gauge these hypothetical effects, that's an unscientific conclusion.

There is no evidence that external herbal applications {aside from those that utilize relatively toxic industrial-grade solvents eg: DMSO, etc.} have any advantageous effect on bursal, ligamentous, etc. issues, let alone on fractures.

There exists anecdotal evidence that pee from bushes is helpful, though.

Did somebody piss in your cheerios again:confused:

the time factors involved are in the range of half the normal (read average) healing time. Bursitis is sometimes impossible to aleviate. I have seen multiple cases resolve after one or two applications. This is the kind of thing I am skeptical of so I appreciate your reaction. the company sent me freebies for over a year before I decided to test their claims. I have been nothing but impressed.

Chinese formula = several thousand years of anecdotal evidence.

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, don't knock it. the quality of medical research in the last decade is abyssmal. ITs all bought and paid for before the results are in. Most studies are so skewed toward a presupposed outcome that it begs the question why bother in the first place.

I will consider a large volume of anecdotal evidence over a few "scientific" studies any day.

Here's a question for you. if a drug trial shows it to be 68% effective and the placebo effect is 58% (not an uncommon split) and the drug has some questionable side effects, what makes more sense. Do we sell a potentially dangerous drug or the placebo?

food for thought.

[Dr D]

who is thinking you are coming off a little strong. Again!

There is good double blind research on this product andI will be happy to take time out of my busy schedule to look it up for you. In the meantime here is the companies position regarding research as copied off their website.

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=610 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD align=middle width=524 colSpan=16>Clinical Studies</TD><TD height=43></TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=18 height=19></TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD colSpan=4 height=8></TD><TD width=205 rowSpan=16>Wei Laboratories, Inc. is engaged in the understanding of herb-based healthcare products using rigorous clinical research approaches. The process of product development at Wei Laboratories, Inc. is:

1. Identify herbal recipes which provide major healthcare benefit to defined patient population through herbal medicine practice.

2. Document the healthcare benefit toward defined disease categories through clinical case studies supervised by medical doctors.

3. Use double-blind clinical studies to verify the efficacy of herb-based healthcare products on sound scientific grounds</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I am a respected member of my profession and this community. If you read my posts you will see that I often direct people to research articles on a variety of topics. Unless you are a healthcare professional with a doctorate in something relevant I suggest you not muddy the waters on topics you are obviously not currently educated on. I will do the same on topics with wich you hold more expertise. coaching and technique for example.

I appreciate your contribution in areas that I am not as well versed. please don't start a war this is a nice board.

[Dr D]

First, I wasn't promoting pharmaceuticals.

neither was I they are just the source of lots of "unscientific" studies

I am stating that the myth that topicals effect transcorporeal treatment of bursae, tendons, and even fractures () is unscientific.

many don't some do. like many things in life there are no absolutes. the truth lies somewhere in between.

There is an even larger body of your ancient "anecdotal evidence" that states that the earth is flat, despite what "scientific studies tell us".

this is just juvenile. there is no evidence anecdotal or otherwise that the world is flat.

I've got some great snake-oil available, if you'd like some, along with some maps that show sea monsters on the edges of the earth

you should read some new stuff. The whole world is exploring alternative and complimentary medicine with some fantastic and even amazing results. In many cases the results are obtained without side effects and comlications.

:D:D

If this conversation is to continue I would suggest we start a new thread as this one is not the appropriate place.

[Dr D]

you will find very few if any studies on any subject not sponsored by interested parties. It may be funded by the government but it is anything but impartial. As I stated before I place more stock in what I can see and put my hands on than in studies. they are a good place to start though. IT pays to read the whole article with particular attention on how the study was constructed. you can usually tell if it was based on a preconcieved notion or on true scientific method.

the study does have to fit the scenario as well.

for instance in my field it is impossible to do a traditional double blind study. the patient may be blinded and not know whether they recieve a real or sham adjustment, but the Doctor cannot be since I would have to know whether to give a real or a sham adjustment. double blind isn't obviously a good or a fair standard in this case.please see the new thread on research in off topic

[Dr D]

I hold a bachelors in science (premed) and a doctorate in Chiropractic medicine.

ten plus years of study. my graduate work included all my clinical internships. I have a few more hours than a GP MD but significantly less than some of the hardcore specialties (heart specialist, neurosurgeon etc)

I have very little pharmacology compared to an MD and lots more physiology just for example. The overall curriculum is quite similiar though.

My licensure is achieved through a set of five national board tests and a state jurisprudence test. The schools involved are nationally and regionally acredited. SACS etc.

[Dr D]

I don't understand- you consider questioning of advice is considered "starting a war"?

<NOBR></NOBR>

you will notice that I suggest that she research these products for herself and make up her own mind. I suggested she ask her doctor about the kinesiotape for instance. I do not diagnose or recomend treatment online that would be insane, I will however give advice and offer a referral if it is applicable. Anyone who questions advice recomending someone read and research on their own comes off as just inflammatory. If that was not your intent I accept your apology and tender my own.

please read and decide for yourself on anything that I suggest.

[Dr D]

Oh.

He's a very nice person.

LOL whats thaaat supposed to mean LOL

I attended some classes at life myself. I spent most of my time in SC at Sherman though.

[Dr D]

no riding period:( the land of neverending heat. I was out of the game for almost ten yrs. Its good to be back.

[Paulk]

Good luck with the healing, and the doc. I'll see ya there!

Willys right, I do get a bit silly when I drink all day. Luckly I had Shred around to help out:lol::lol::lol:. Apparantly I went from signing autographs to getting kicked out in under a minute... Thats a personal best.

Luckly at SES Michelle is there to keep me inline. Right:confused:

Felicia, best wishes (from Bachelor #1.) for a speedy recovery.. See you at lunch!

Bordy, Has anyone invited Seth to come out and ride with us in Aspen? Just don't bring up the broken table around him.. Question... If Michelle is gonna keep you inline...awe- nevermind. See you next week!

Oh one other note(I can't help myself, sorry Jack): come on guys... ARE YOU KIDDING ME? enough already with the personal attacks. I think we all can dissemminate information on this board without being reminded to check the source. Kudos to the individual who can offer up advice that may not be mainsteam.. And piss-off to anyone who feels the need to attack them.

Going to step away from the keyboard now. Almost time to fly over to Colorado for the next two weeks, anyone else want to go snowboarding?

[carverchick]

Well I talked to the Orthopedic Specialist and a Chiropractor (sp?) and I was told the best advice was to stay off of the leg. So I'm leaving well enough alone and just enjoy hanging with my drinking buddies. :P

[Dr D]

since this thread is totally and completely jacked already.

Bola whats the going rate on the dupraz? I have it on my wish list although I am totally confused now that there are 12 different ones to choose from.

[fin]

Felicia,

Sorry for the delay, got your message and Michelle said she had taken care of the SES stuff with you.

I am SO sorry to hear about the injury. But we do look forward to seeing you and Al at the SES next week. You can be my official demo-tent COP. You get to yell at people when they take gear out for too long

See you guys soon!

[Michelle]

Question... If Michelle is gonna keep you inline...awe- nevermind. See you next week!

AH HA AH HA:lol: That's funny.....

[carverchick]

Hey Fin,

Thanks for the sympathy and we also look forward to seeing everyone. Thanks for making me the demo tent cop. I was going to ask you about putting me to work. I have to justify my cocktailing. Oh wait no I don't but I still wanted to be involved one way or another.

Thanks again!

Felicia,

Sorry for the delay, got your message and Michelle said she had taken care of the SES stuff with you.

I am SO sorry to hear about the injury. But we do look forward to seeing you and Al at the SES next week. You can be my official demo-tent COP. You get to yell at people when they take gear out for too long

See you guys soon!

[fin]

Hmmmm, never heard the word "cocktailing" used as a verb but I am willing to learn :D

What exactly do you guys do up there for fun on those cold nights?

[carverchick]

I heard the word cocktailing from a friend and I was like is that what you call it when you been drinking constantly :rolleyes:

Hmmmm, never heard the word "cocktailing" used as a verb but I am willing to learn :D

What exactly do you guys do up there for fun on those cold nights?

Most of the time we are usually found at our local watering hole.

[Algunderfoot]

FYI, Ya all,

In Wisconsin "Cocktailing" is a sport, not just a verb. Like all sports it requires practice - training perhaps, good judgement, and is certainly not without risk. And like all sports, I once thought I was pertty good until I met a pro (as in proficient) practitioner by the name of "Dr. Cocktail". Needless to say I was forever humbled.

Al

I'm not an alcoholic....they go to meetings.

[carverchick]

See this is why I think I'm keeping Al

[fin]

Al,

Intereresting. You'll have to show me this next week at the SES. I did do some research on the internet and found some exercises I can do to get ready. I have been doing some liver "stretches" along with "two-fisted" curls. The Captain Morgan Leg Lift has been giving me some issue as I like to wear a kilt when I drink.

My friend Tom L. from Minni-soda will be there and claims "cocktailing" was actually invented my the Vikings. Apparently they could make a wicked Vodka Sea Breaze after a good hard battle.

Let's compare notes when you have some time.

[carverchick]

I know all about the Vodka Sea Breezes. Let's just say after a few of those, you'll be flying in the wind or falling to the ground. Which ever comes first.

Regarding the kilt Fin, I strongly suggest you wear that at SES, oh and don't forget the suit either. :P

I also think there should be a workshop called Cocktailing 101 :-)

Al,

Intereresting. You'll have to show me this next week at the SES. I did do some research on the internet and found some exercises I can do to get ready. I have been doing some liver "stretches" along with "two-fisted" curls. The Captain Morgan Leg Lift has been giving me some issue as I like to wear a kilt when I drink.

My friend Tom L. from Minni-soda will be there and claims "cocktailing" was actually invented my the Vikings. Apparently they could make a wicked Vodka Sea Breaze after a good hard battle.

Let's compare notes when you have some time.

[Guest GQuentin]

I know all about the Vodka Sea Breezes. Let's just say after a few of those, you'll be flying in the wind or falling to the ground. Which ever comes first.

Regarding the kilt Fin, I strongly suggest you wear that at SES, oh and don't forget the suit either. :P

I also think there should be a workshop called Cocktailing 101 :-)

So after some carving workshops on the mountain, Caverchick, you can give us some cocktailing workshops in the bar. Count me in

Wow....this is really going to be a fun trip,

Quentin

[Mr. T]

Affirmative Fin, local lore states that the not only were the Vikings on North American soil hundreds of years before any other white man, they were the little known pioneers in the sport of cocktailing. Long days of oaring across the ocean were mixed with various rudimentary drinking games which were the predicessors of such all time drinking favorites as president/ahole, quarters and the ever-popular keg stand. These games then culminated in to the more generic cocktailing once the people and lands the Vikings conquered had no choice but to smile and drink with them. In fact it is widely accepted that the beer helmet of today was developed by the Vikings.

[Algunderfoot]

Well Fin,

I would agree with Tom and Mr. T that it was the Vikings that most likely introduced the practice to North America. That would make them Pro's (as in proficient) Every Viking I ever met was qualified, some better than others. :D. However, they learned all about alcohol from the Brae, Galic bands from what is now Ireland and Scotland. Of course these peoples didn't care much for taking over the world, they had cocktails, Kilts too! As history writes it, the Romans brought distillation technology to Europe, but there are the remains of a brewery in Skara Brae dating back to 3000 BC. The earliest record of beer comes from Syria, circa 4000 BC. "Ebla" Beer was advertised in stone tablets as "The beer with the heart of the lion". Fermented beverage residue has been found in Ecuador and Chile dating back to 6000 BC, suggesting the the practice is as old as Civilization itself. My friend Dr. Charlie Bamforth (UC Davis Chair) goes on to suggest that nomatic people didn't settle down to grow food, that could be done by foraging alone, they in fact settled down to grow grain for brewing, lots of brewing. Man no longer needed to wander, conversation flourished, organization developed, bars, markets, town halls, and churches etc. This theory is supported by many Bio-Anthropoligists. This means that while cocktailing demonstrates the evolution of the sport, alcohol is solely responsible for civilization as we know it.

I certainly do look forward to some advancement of civilization next week !

Al

[Michelle]

So after some carving workshops on the mountain, Caverchick, you can give us some cocktailing workshops in the bar. Count me in

ME TOO ME TOO ME TOO!!