How to ride fakie with a square tail

[Peter Vu]

I am comfortable carving fakie with high angles (it's like ice skating backward) on a twin tip.

When it comes to square tail, my confidence goes to zero as I am quite worried to dig the "nose" into the snow, especially the softer snow we have out West. Any riding tips to prevent this?

Thx

Peter

[tufty]

Any riding tips to prevent this?

Keep the round end of the board at the front.

Oh.

Damn.

[Allee]

Yep. Don't. :-)

[tpalka]

I no longer have any square-tailed boards and so I no longer run into this issue... Front and back are a bit confusing, so I'll use "tip" and "tail". When I did ride a square tail, I tried to load the board tip more and free the tail, at least when not initiating turns. Now that my boards have slightly upturned tails, it's a lot more comfortable to be aggressive when initiating turns. I imagine that if you like riding switch you probably already know all this though...

tom.

PS. Very much enjoyed watching your EC videos :)

[BadBrad]

I did a carving clinic at Big Mountain years ago and some of the guys on the U.S. Olympic team showed up for part of it. They were riding fakie down steep, bumpy terrain with little trees sticking up, on their Factory Primes. So it can be done, at least by guys who ride about 300 days a year, but not by me.

[photodad2001]

...it's called "Fakie". You don't switch your feet on your board. The only possible exception I would allow is if you are riding a true twin tipped board, bindings mounted dead center, with both feet perfectly straight across or at equal opposite angles so that riding nose forward is exactly like riding tail forward.

Anyway, I rode fakie on my old Buton performer (had a swallow tail so not perfectly square) but just keep you weight toward the nose.

[b0ardski]

...it's called "Fakie". You don't switch your feet on your board. The only possible exception I would allow is if you are riding a true twin tipped board, bindings mounted dead center, with both feet perfectly straight across or at equal opposite angles so that riding nose forward is exactly like riding tail forward.

so that means its not "switch" for skis either? I carve switch on 1 stick or 2 and I still call it fakie. wich ever way I say it you know what I meant; backwards is groovy man:cool:

[b0ardski]

does a square tail have any benifit at all for the recreational rider or skier???

[Dave ESPI]

Going switch on a directional board is potentialy dangerous, but not impossible. The key I've found is to tweek the rear (square section) of the board up in the air with your weight nose-pressing the (now back) nose of the board as you are keeping the tail up out of the snow a bit higher and it won't bite in the surface. If you stick the corner of the tail into the snow, you are going over, so just be ready to fold the legs up and smack your occipital lobe on the back of your board.... lol

[b0ardski]

I've dug the tail of my prime into hard groom before riding swakie/fitch. If you want to link carves backwards you've got to initiate with the leading edge, as in the tail. If there's no upturn your gonna kiss the snow sooner or later:smashfrea

[Jrobb]

I actually prefer sometimes to ride fakie now in hb's...it seems somewhat easier even though I'm turned further back. On my 4807 (swallow tail with little upturn) you just have to make sure you keep weight back and not initiate on the front leg at all. It helps if the snow isn't rutted, tracked and soft.

I remember one day cliping in at the top of the lift a group of teenagers were straping in. I had my 4807 out and I could over hear them discussing it's shape. The loudest comment (being the last one) was "...yeah but you can't ride switch on it" to which I started out regular spun around fakie and proceded to carve down the run a bit. ( Not spectacular) but I glanced back to see confused looks on their faces and then turned off into the woods for some pow.

J

[lonerider]

...it's called "Fakie".

That's how it was around a decade ago, but times have changed... you mentioned Kemper in another post, it's gone basically so and Sim is also not much of a factor in the "brave new world" of snowboarding. Switch is the commonly accepted term now... maybe in another tens year it will switch back.

[photodad2001]

so that means its not "switch" for skis either? I carve switch on 1 stick or 2 and I still call it fakie. wich ever way I say it you know what I meant; backwards is groovy man:cool:

Sorry, no "switch" riding for skiers either. Do skiers perform backside or frontside airs in the pipe? Same thing, people may understand what you're saying but it's not correct terminology. "Switch" is short for "Switch Stance" which was coined by skaters when they'd change their stance from regular to goofy (or visa versa). Imagine an oldschool skateboard with a distinctive nose and tail. If the board was pointed nose first and the rider was riding the opposite of what he normally rode it was called "switch". "Fakie" on the other had was simply riding backwards, rider and board together. I'm not aware of any current bindings that allows you to switch your stance while riding.

Just being anal!

[photodad2001]

That's how it was around a decade ago, but times have changed. Switch is the commonly accepted term not... maybe in another tens year it will switch back.

I blame that on ESPN and their commentators butchering terminology. There is a difference between switch and fakie. Read my response to Boardski.

[scotts.Scheinman]

ive tried to ride fakie but i realized its not worth it.

[Phil]

especially the softer snow we have out West.

I think that this is the point that has been missed here. There is definitely some truth to the fact that there is a limit to how much you can do when soft snow gets to a certain depth. Beyond getting in the back seat, I don't really see much of a remedy.

As far as riding switch on a flat tail when it is not soft and deep, that is about the rider, not the board.

There are several riders on BOL that have passed an AASI Level III Exam on square tails and have done so by riding and teaching switch bumps, switch carving, switch steeps, switch pipe, switch rails, switch jumps, etc, etc......

Remember that square tails generally exist on high performance boards. When you flip them switch, they are still high performance boards. I think that it is pretty easy for a high level hardbooter to out-carve a softbooter switch.

To the best that my memory serves me, I have caught my square tail once landing switch in a kinked pipe. That was a no brainer - I should not have tried to land switch where it was kinked I also caught it in the bumps once or twice, but that was not too bad, cause I felt myself coming apart, which caused the catch - I knew it was coming. When I have ridden the bumps cleanly, there has never been much danger. I have never caught it anywhere else - certainly not carving - where I can't even imagine why one would catch a tail. My guess would be a botched transition...

Photodad - as far as switch and fakie are concerned, you are arguing something that really never was. If my memory serves me, it was Terje H. who argued that he was riding fakie because he had a forward stance where everyone riding duck was riding switch so he should get more points for landing opposite. The judges did not go for it and fakie never really stuck. Riding backward started being called fakie or switch and soon was more often known as switch. ESPN had little if anything to do with it.

It is even more inaccurate that we call boardslides frontside and backside when snowboarders generally approach the rails straight on. Unfortunately, it started from skateboarding where skaters approached the rails from the side and was the only thing that we knew when it all transferred to snowboarding. Now I teach rails to snowboarders all of the time who just scratch their heads and cannot understand why having your back down the hill could possibly be called a frontside boardslide. Cabellerials (sp?) are another example of something that has morphed into something different. Now you have half cabs, cab 3's, cab 5's, etc. off of straight jumps. :rolleyes: Furthermore, toeside turns are not frontsides and heelside turns are not backsides. I am sure if I thought about it, I could go on and come up with more of these silly examples.

The bottom line is that it is called switch - for better or for worse. Why is it worth arguing about? This is not skateboarding or surfing, just a close cousin (brother?).

[photodad2001]

Photodad - as far as switch and fakie are concerned, you are arguing something that really never was. If my memory serves me, it was Terje H. who argued that he was riding fakie because he had a forward stance where everyone riding duck was riding switch so he should get more points for landing opposite. The judges did not go for it and fakie never really stuck. Riding backward started being called fakie or switch and soon was more often known as switch. ESPN had little if anything to do with it.

It is even more inaccurate that we call boardslides frontside and backside when snowboarders generally approach the rails straight on. Unfortunately, it started from skateboarding where skaters approached the rails from the side and was the only thing that we knew when it all transferred to snowboarding. Now I teach rails to snowboarders all of the time who just scratch their heads and cannot understand why having your back down the hill could possibly be called a frontside boardslide. Cabellerials (sp?) are another example of something that has morphed into something different. Now you have half cabs, cab 3's, cab 5's, etc. off of straight jumps. :rolleyes: Furthermore, toeside turns are not frontsides and heelside turns are not backsides. I am sure if I thought about it, I could go on and come up with more of these silly examples.

The bottom line is that it is called switch - for better or for worse. Why is it worth arguing about? This is not skateboarding or surfing, just a close cousin (brother?).

Apparently you are either younger than I am or got into the sport much later. The term fakie goes way back before switch. Also, switch was around back in the late 80's before that incident ever happened, however I would say taking the "judges" side over an actual participant (and not just any participant) speaks volumes. AND... a front slide boardslide is called so because it is your front that faces the direction you are going while on the rail, not the approach. Your frontside/heelside, backside/toeside turns are named for the same reason. I guess I argue for the same reasons Terje did. People trying to make something sound harder than it is when it isn't.

[Phil]

Apparently you are either younger than I am or got into the sport much later. The term fakie goes way back before switch. Also, switch was around back in the late 80's before that incident ever happened, however I would say taking the "judges" side over an actual participant (and not just any participant) speaks volumes. AND... a front slide boardslide is called so because it is your front that faces the direction you are going while on the rail, not the approach. Your frontside/heelside, backside/toeside turns are named for the same reason. I guess I argue for the same reasons Terje did. People trying to make something sound harder than it is when it isn't.

I would be glad to be younger than you (regardless of how old you are ;) )and yes, you probably rode before I did. I started skating in the early '80's and got in on snowboarding in '88.

Who took the judges' side? I would guess that the other participants would not want him getting more points because of his choice of stance. That would mean that the decision took the participants' side. I don't know that for sure - it is only conjecture.

Boardslides, sorry bro, you are incorrect. A frontside boardslide is when your back faces down the rail. Please, don't take my word for it -look it up. That is nothing new. Boardslide is a slide where the nose of the board goes over the rail after an approach with the rail at your backside. Frontside boardslide is when the approach has the rail at your frontside and the nose goes over the rail. On the other hand, a frontside lipslide is when your tail goes over the rail and a backside lipslide is as well. When doing lipslides, direction of travel is more intuitive - FS is facing the rail and vice-versa. This is why it doesn't make sense for snowboarding - most approaches are straight on. In any case, whether it makes sense or not has nothing to do with it - it is just the way it is.

Yes, toeside and heelside are obvious - frontside and backside are not really snowboarding turning terms IMO. You can flame on for that one.

For everyone else, sorry for the threadjack.

[MUD]

Why is it worth arguing about?

I agree.

[photodad2001]

Boardslides, sorry bro, you are incorrect. A frontside boardslide is when your back faces down the rail. Please, don't take my word for it -look it up. That is nothing new. Boardslide is a slide where the nose of the board goes over the rail after an approach with the rail at your backside. Frontside boardslide is when the approach has the rail at your frontside and the nose goes over the rail. On the other hand, a frontside lipslide is when your tail goes over the rail and a backside lipslide is as well. When doing lipslides, direction of travel is more intuitive - FS is facing the rail and vice-versa. This is why it doesn't make sense for snowboarding - most approaches are straight on. In any case, whether it makes sense or not has nothing to do with it - it is just the way it is.

Alright, I can admit where I'm wrong and on boardslides you were right, now from the same tricktionary please read the following cut and paste.

Switch

The most difficult stance to ride and trick in. Switch is whichever stance is opposite to your natural stance. If you prefer to ride with your right foot forward then you are in switch if your left foot is forward, and vice versa.

Note that this is different to fakie because even though in fakie your off-foot is technically 'forwards', you are still in your most comfortable stance, just travelling backwards, and your legs do everything the same as in your natural stance. In switch, everything feels very odd indeed, and your legs perform the opposite role to those they normally do.

Switch

The most difficult stance to ride and trick in. Switch is whichever stance is opposite to your natural stance. If you prefer to ride with your right foot forward then you are in switch if your left foot is forward, and vice versa.

Note that this is different to fakie because even though in fakie your off-foot is technically 'forwards', you are still in your most comfortable stance, just travelling backwards, and your legs do everything the same as in your natural stance. In switch, everything feels very odd indeed, and your legs perform the opposite role to those they normally do.

Now, can that be performed on a snowboard with bolted bindings?

[photodad2001]

I agree.

It's a forum and you don't have to be a part. But as I'm quoting your input because I find it as interesting to debate as say racer vs. carver arguments or hardboot / softboot.

[Phil]

The tricktionary is a skateboarding site. This is a snowboarding discussion (that has gone severely off track:) ). If you will, please read my first post again. My whole point was that things do not translate directly from skate to snow. Noschoolrider's AASI definitions were probably the best thing going for snowboarding switch/fakie definitions that actually separate the two. Many sources would just say that they mean the same thing in snowboarding.

The masses call riding with your opposite foot forward "switch". Like the evolution of the English language in many other arenas, the masses dictate what the language evolves to.

[photodad2001]

http://ucdsnowsports.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21

[NateW]

<b>Note</b>: AASI defines fakie as riding backwards (tail first) while facing uphill and switch is defined as riding backwards (tail first) while facing downhill.

OMG. WTF. LOL. That makes no sense at all. :lol:

But anyways.... I have been hard-booting for years but only recently started riding square-tailed boards. My F2 183 has sorta rounded corners but very little lift, and I was surprised how well it works. Donek FC 180 has sorta squared corners and a couple cm of lift, and it works pretty well too. Mind you I only ride these fakie, I mean, switch, I mean, in reverse on snow that's been groomed that day, but even at the end of the day when things get choppy they work well enough.

But I would much rather just not worry about it, so I am going back to all-mountain boards as soon as I can. I'd rather have a board that suits my riding style than change my style to suit my board. Nose-pressing everywhere probably works fine but it doesn't sound as fun.

[Peter Vu]

Thanks to all for the great replies.

Putting pressure on the nose of the board seems to be the general solution.

When I carve fakie/switch, I initiate the carve by putting weight on the tail knee.

Just like riding in normal scenario, we initiate our turns with the front knee.

However, from what people say, I do not see how I can initiate a carving fakie/switch turn with my weight on the nose leg....

Tom,

Thanks for your comment on my EC. Not sure which video you were watching but they are probably old..... it was a fun process to learn EC with the Tahoe crew, they helped out a lot. BTW, I love you avatar. Looks like a shot from a helicopter

Noschoolrider,

I can skid fakie on the blue/black and carve fakie on the green. My problem is carving fakie on with a square tail on softer snow.

Do you have videos of you doing air-to-fakie, fakie/switch bump riding, and fakie/switch tricks that you can share online or offline? I would love to go to OES but with two young kids at home, I can barely make it to Tahoe....