Poaching Ski School

[JoelP]

Quick question..and I'm not raining on anyone's parade here because it's been a personal dilemma for me since I've turned down teaching/coaching under the table here because if the SkiCo got wind I can loose my pass here forever and be banned.

so the question is....What are people's feelings about poaching Ski School and teaching underground?

this is just to open a discusion, not a complaint

Some background I've had this semi moral dilemma for quite sometime and since there is another discusion going on about this I would like to get more people's thoughts to help me decide where I want to go with this. Again this is to help me personally but may also help you and the community. So please no flaming of anyone just a good open discusion of your thoughts so we can all grow. I've taught skiing and snowboarding for a few years and kind of got semi disgusted with the pecking order within the Corporations but I've seen many many happy people that got something out of it. I've met and know many professional instructors and coaches that have put years getting to where they are and they know what they are doing. I've also met idiots in uniforms. I saw one last year that got me thinking about this again since he had a student for a full week on carving gear but when ever he had a chance and the student was looking he would ask me for tips to teach.....totally unreal...but in the end he had a unkowingly happy student. So it goes both ways, some good and some bad. But to date I have turned down poaching to teach for money. I am more than happy to spend an hour with someone to help and to ride with, that's part of any sport and is truly needed in our sport. But i can't see myself taking a whole day or even a 1/2 day to really get into the nuts and bolts because I only have so much free time and i have to pay for my pass etc etc etc. Then I turn down to get paid to do it under the table because I don't have insurance to cover a student running off into the trees or hitting someone. i have no big corporation backing me with lawyers and I haven't paid my dues like the real pro's that I know that have been at it for years getting to the top and I'll admit some of them are darn good even though they are few and far between. BOL even has a section that helps us find real good instructors at resorts. So the capability is there to find someone who is a pro. BUT I also feel bad for the guys that can't spend the fortunes that some of ski co's charge. Aspen is ridiculous expensive for anyone who wants to learn how to carve. You can't get a group lesson here for carving..it has to be private...duh...So my subconcious dilemma exists. I'll help with pieces and parts but I'm not sure about jumping into the bandit teaching business...although it may be profitable.

So throw out some thoughts on this and be respectful to both the bandits and the pro's...i have friends that do both now i want general publics views.

PS does anyone know how to make this a quick poll??

1) It's okay to teach for money underground no matter what?

2) Teaching underground for money just isn't right?

thanks, JoelP

[trailertrash]

Are you asking for instructors who are employed by the mountain they are giving the covert lesson at? Or just any random person giving a lesson for a fee at a resort? If you are not employed by the mountain I don't see a problem with it.

[JoelP]

trailer...

what's your thought on the difference between someone not employed teaching on the mtn as compared to a teacher who is doing it on the side? I know for a fact that either way out here the SkiCo will consider it a theft of services if caught and will prosecute. I've personally seen it. So just so I understand it's okay for one scenario and not the other? Although I can see it be more wrong in my mind too to be employed and then banditing in the background.

thanks, Joel

[bobdea]

I agree with TT

by a long shot some of the best coaches I've seen at work are freelancers, I've seen some pretty incredible skier dev with young racers by coaches that don't have the time to coach full time taking kids out a day a week for one on one work.

[bobdea]

trailer...

what's your thought on the difference between someone not employed teaching on the mtn as compared to a teacher who is doing it on the side? I know for a fact that either way out here the SkiCo will consider it a theft of services if caught and will prosecute. I've personally seen it. So just so I understand it's okay for one scenario and not the other? Although I can see it be more wrong in my mind too to be employed and then banditing in the background.

thanks, Joel

if you work for the resort I can see it being a issue but honestly at the prices resorts charge for private lessons they should expect people to poach.

Sleazy ****s the people that run some of the CO resorts.

[JoelP]

I totally agree that from my experience coaching is way more productive than teaching. Most if not all of the Aspen valley kids are coached thru coaching programs. Here the coaches are not employed by the SkiCo but by the Ski Club which has an agreement with the SkiCo. The Ski School just can not do what they do and i have friends whose kids are enrolled in these programs. I'm not sure and i haven't looked into whether as an adult they offer any programs but i doubt it. So is okay to also poach the local Clubs with coaching kids too? Also it's vewry very cheap here for the kids thru the program since it's funded thru grants and fund raisers all year. Pretty damn good thing going for the kids here....wish i was a kid :lol:

I guess it can get super complicated, kids, adults, ski school, ski clubs etc etc. So to keep it more simple here since I'm kind of defering to the "Gilmour is in Aspen and ready to coach thread" and my own demons...about teaching the general public (this is a general public forum being advertised on by that thread). Is it okay?

I'm reading so far that it's 2 = yes it's okay.

thanks for the feedback

Joel

[EnisiWaya]

This is a tough one no matter how you cut it.

I have been teaching professionally since 1965.

PSIA AND AASI.

When I got out of the US Navy in 74 I worked for a ski shop in CT doing bus trips to northern New England. We were combo instructors and entertainers with the guitars on the ride back. We did have insurance through the ski shop.

In spite of that we were unwelcome at many mountains Even with four busloads of customers, and PSIA would not accept us as we were not employed by a mountain ski school.

I think in todays litigeous society It would be a very risky thing to teach for any money or renumeration of any kind even equipment, without an insurance umbrella.

As a staff trainer I am constantly stopping my people and having them re-phrase things in thier presentations just to limit our liability even with the mountain's insurance umbrella.

Enisi Waya

[D-Sub]

Joel

while I don't usually defend "the man" I think that one point is kinda being missed here:

If you're not employed by the mountain company and generating income for the mountain company you are theoretically out of line. You'd be charging for services (I assume we're talking charging here) while using someone elses property that they spend money to build, maintain, etc.

Golf courses frown on this, too. If I were a pro and capable of teaching someone how to play golf, it would be a bit underhanded for me to go to a course, use their driving range, use their course to teach someone, charge that someone for it, and not share the income with th facilities I was using.

Im pretty sure this is a large part of the companies argument against, and it seems reasonable enough to me.

solution: teach for free?

[trailertrash]

If you're not employed by the mountain company and generating income for the mountain company you are theoretically out of line. You'd be charging for services (I assume we're talking charging here) while using someone elses property that they spend money to build, maintain, etc.

i agree with this point actually. i assumed but didnt mention in my post that we were talking about carving instruction. the difference i see is that a mtn may not have a single instructor capable of instructing. in this situation you arent really taking money away from the mtn.

[SEJ]

Sticky question. I think D-Sub cut to the chase on this one. Although, if both instructor and student buy a pass, aren't they paying for use of the hill? The question is, does paying for the use of the hill enable you to make money on the hill? Just my 2 cents.

[Phil]

I am going to sidestep the ethics question because I don't know enough about how things are run in CO. I don't know what their laws are either.

Liability is the big issue that I would worry about. If you are charging, you are taking on the role of a professional. You should get insurance if you go this route.

[D-Sub]

i agree with this point actually. i assumed but didnt mention in my post that we were talking about carving instruction. the difference i see is that a mtn may not have a single instructor capable of instructing. in this situation you arent really taking money away from the mtn.

Providing a service they don't provide, eh?

I don't see it as ethics or morals, ie unethical to do. I just see it as private property and that generating income on private property without "sharing the wealth" is generally frowned on, and rightfully so it seems.

[JoelP]

Buying a pass/ticket allows us to use the ski lifts, atleast here, I hike up all I want to ride but I have to hike again on the next run...bummer..if I choose to not buy a ticket. But I can't run a business without going thru the SkiCo or the Forest Service. Actually the Forest Service will come down om me too if i tried to run a business on FS property...but that's another subject.

Here's another example I think about. One of our members, David Glynn is a dear friend of mine who i got into this sport a long time ago. He's a true professional who has not only been and is an instructor but has been a highly respected freestyle coach. He's spent many years putting love and dedication into the ski/snowboard industry. He's an instructor who doesn't get much in the way of carving students, but I know he'll give tips and information on the slope to anyone who asks, for free. I hope he perks in here and gives his perspective, he is by far and away not a "Company man" he does this for the love of the sport but he needs to make a living at it too. Well my question is where does he get students from if someone is poaching on the mtn. What does the professional do? quit and try to make it on his own. Can't be done that way. I wouldn't and will not advertise myself to go to his mtn and teach or coach but I will try to point people in his direction. My dilemma is I'm not thinking I'm taking money away from the company but I'm taking away from an instructors living. hell I really wish I could just tell the SkiCo I'll teach carving when they need someone but on my schedule :lol: but they'll laugh and the other instuctors will get to jealous .

I'm all for helping out for free, it's the sporting life. I've been asked to spend a day here and there teaching, the only way i can put that time in would be to get compensation and I'm not feeling good about the poaching aspect, so I say no but come ride with me and I'll throw a pointer in here and there. After that asta la vista...unless you keep up and then you need no help from me :lol:

JoelP

[RDY_2_Carve]

I think you should just "teach for tips". It's not a big deal IMHO. Essentially it's free and the person getting the tips can choose to buy you some beers or whatever after the fact.

[D-Sub]

Joel

I just want to make sure you realize I wasn't accusing you or implying you were doing anything wrong. I don't necessarily agree with the stance of the mountain companies, but at the same time I sorta do.

As for taking income from other instructors...if no hardboot instructors are available, well...?

Maybe approach the SkiCo about starting a hardboot specific program, with you as occasional instructor and others filling in the blanks?

[JoelP]

no problem Dave, I'm not a corporate guy either and your correlation was excellent. that's the kind of stuff I want to hear, pro's and con's. I helps a lot to use other examples in this. There's a lot of different circumstances that can swing me one way or the other. I sure wouldn't advertise but I'm tempted when someone asks because they aren't able to find a competent on the mtn employee (more politically correct since there are both officially paid coaches and instructors here). I find it funny that we hold different levels of what's in our personal gray zone different between all of us.

I would love to coach here with the kids but I can't make a living. the time needed to climb to that level is not in front of me anymore. Your idea about approaching the SkiCo might be good. Also it's become unaffordable here for a program that can't turn high numbers of clients. It was a big thing (carving) here many years ago but fell to the way side when the numbers dropped.

I look forward to hearing more thoughts

Joel

[Bobby Buggs]

Personally I have NO problem with teaching for $ when both parties have paid for a ticket. If you stood at the Ski school and diverted customers than that would be an issue. You are offering a service and a level of instruction I doubt is available at most areas AND your customers have come to YOU, most likely you have not recruited them.

The Insurance thing may be worth a look if you want to lose $ on this idea. Then again I have no idea what the base premium would be.

Joel, you are one of the top alpine riders in Aspen, you earned that by huge amounts of hard work. If someone recognizes it and wants to pay you to help them then I say game on

[D-Sub]

Joel

in light of what you just said...if you charge someone $100 here and there, every once in a while, for an hour or so or whatever you intend, I just don't see how it'd end up on the radar, and I certainly don't think it's unethical in the slightest, especially since you're both paying customers (season pass or day ticket)

[Steve Prokopiw]

I would love to be able to be considered legit by a mountain as an individual contractor.I intend to be just that for some hardboot clinics if all works out with insurance and negotiations with the company I now work for.Otherwise I do not teach or coach under the table due to both the ethical dilema and the liability exposure.The hardboot clinics will be under the umbrella of skischool if it proves unfeasable to do what I hope to do.

[Bobby Buggs]

Forgive my ignorance but would someone please tell me what the underlying ethical or unethical issue is here

[b0ardski]

The only lesson I've ever had was bought for me in 73,1st time on skis. I could never afford it. I've gotten and given a couple impromtu lessons for only tips. If your going under the table do it under the table. It's probably someone who cant afford $100 an hour any way. as far as hardboot lessons they don't exist, If I got paid to teach someone to snow board in '88 I sure wasn't taking away from the area as snowboard instructors didn't exist. Consider it a tip and don't ask don't tell.

Advertising is one thing but if they seek you out it's an exchange between friends, no dilema.

[Shred Gruumer]

Most land is Federally owned and the ski company leases the property..

I teach sometimes,, but I wait to charge them until I'm off the mountain that way no violation takes place and lf say they want to pay me..usually in a beer and pizza.. but sometimes I get about $1000 or so for each half hour....

Its like pulling a person out of a ditch... I don't ask for money but if they want to give it to me...... well...

As far as someone who really teaches snowboarding... the good ones are few and far between... they can't be everywhere at once..

F....em go for it...

[Mr. T]

I say, stick it to the man and poach away!!!! Great one on one instruction/coaching, without the crazy cost, and the questionable quality and lesson specificity of a ski school, is hard to find. Just have all your students sign a waiver freeing you of any liability prior to the lesson. Ha!

[Steve Prokopiw]

I don't feel any moral superiority for not teaching under the table.I just don't do it because I help support my family on income made from teaching for a mountain and don't want to jepordize that ability.I do believe that not allowing private or competing ski schools to operate on public land leased or monopolized by one company runs contrary to the values our supposedly free enterprise driven society believes in. Certainly there would need to be some sort of accountability process for multiple schools on one mountain but the opportunity to operate private enterprise even on an individual basis is a principle worth pursuing.

ps,hardboot instructors,especially good ones, may be far and few between,but I'm one of them,and the rates charged by the school I work for are less than what many under the table people I know have charged.

[JoelP]

Talk about interesting timing, this article from today's Aspen paper.

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20071225/NEWS/456825965

I was feeling somewhat quilty to think about taking money to teach but it looks like I wouldn't hurt the local scene much if at all. I am also trying to figure out what's the difference between me teaching outside of Ski School and from the article comparing all the ski shops that rent gear and profit that way and they compete directly against the SkiCo's shop.

it's all touchy and I'm honestly not trying to make a business living out of this just trying to justify getting payment for a service when someone approaches me. I think I have my answer now but any more feedback is always appreciated.

I had another thought too at one time and that was to start a carving touring company. I live with a women who has some extra bedrooms and we thought about me starting a touring business with Bed/breakfast for carvers. I cook too so I would supply a room in a comfy house, meals and daily service to take people to the best carving Aspen has. I know the lay of the runs here and the grooming and when to get on and off them. I'm not sure if it falls in the same category as teaching but it's a much easier bandit job but not really since it's a non supplied business as compared to teaching.

thanks for the feedback, Joel