GRRRRRR...people are so dumb.

[Justin A.]

Don't you hate it when people make generic issues into race-type issues? I just found out that the only reason that my white girlfriend gets treated like crap at her housekeeping job is because she's a mexican immigrant, and her managers are racist . Because all housekeepers are immigrants, and their jobs only suck because of racism.

[bobdea]

and explain this

[Justin A.]

There was an article posted on another website dealing with how during the holidays, while you're all traveling and staying in hotels and whatnot the housekeeping staff gets extra **** on because of increased workloads, and it finished with urging people to tip their housekeepers. The first few replies to it were positive, my girlfriend chimed in about how she's been injured on the job in the past few weeks from repetitive stresses and how the management told her to "use her other hand" (the OSHA doctor LOVED that one...the management is in a bit of trouble now) and basically ****s on all the housekeepers.

Then someone comes along and says "and most of them are minorities too". So I requested that he explain how it's relevant that most are minorities, and a big 'ol "all the poor immigrants and minorities get treated like dirt at their housekeeping jobs" discussion ensued - completley ignoring that the aim of the article was to tip your housekeeper- whether they're mexican or white. It just pisses me off that it's assumed that the only people that do ****ty jobs are immigrants...all us white folk are rich executives with a Lexus in the driveway. Certainly can't be scraping along on piss-poor per hour for hard work. No way.

[bobdea]

there could be a argument made the everyone who is a house keeper that is not married to or lives with someone who makes decent money is a economic minority.

Generally the reason people hire illegals is because they don't go to OSHA whenever they get hurt.

In CA for example it's hard to find a white housekeeper.

[Neil Gendzwill]

There seems to be a definite discriminatory pecking order. When I've stayed in hotels in the DC area, housekeeping staff is almost exclusively hispanic, bellboys and maybe desk clerks black, management white.

[Erik J]

Generally the reason people hire illegals is because they don't go to OSHA whenever they get hurt.QUOTE]

In my experience - immigrants (including illegals) are NEEDED because a lot of the Americans that I've encountered don't want to do certain types work. I'll try not too rant too much but this subject gets me fired up.

While there are plenty of caucasians willing to work - from what I have seen in farms and restaurants from NYC all the way up the Hudson Valley of NY is that the demand for work FAR exceeds the number of Americans willing to do the work. My statements come from working (quite willingly) shoulder to shoulder with immigrants out in the farm fields as well as cooking that same food in the backs of many restaurants. The food & hospitality industry needs immigrants - plain and simple. Some employers will treat their staff with respect - the others, I'm sorry to say, are a-holes. Justin, I'm sorry your girlfriend has to deal with the bad side.

Bob, where does your information come from?

[D.T.]

In my experience - immigrants (including illegals) are NEEDED because a lot of the Americans that I've encountered don't want to do certain types work.

x 1,000,000

most immigrants that I have encountered are hard workers, do the work that is asked of them without b*tching, do not complain about their wages and do a better job than their American co-workers.

Justin, not saying that your gf is not a hard worker or a complainer, just saying that this country needs immigrants.

As far as racist go... let's just say that I am not fond of them

[bobdea]

people without work visas will work cheap, always show up unless they find something better and never bitch to the government when you do lots of things that legal workers would get pissed about.

[LeeW]

Ah, I -LOVE- working with the immigrants. I work with them on regular basis, tho I work in different department. Those a-holes dont realize how cool these people -- they're human beings as much as we, "Amerikans," are. Of course, I ensure they do it with safety in mind, because I would mention "do you want to be hurt and be out of work?" "no no, senor." "si. Copy me, and do this right to have injury-free work experience, senor." "si, si, si."

I love working with them, really do. Im white, but Im a half breed, so I have tan skin (you can find me in the UPZ thread with Fin mentioning "would you listen to bono or danzig (i.e. me)?"). So the hispanics and I really do hit it off. I may be half white, but you have no idea how much discrimination I get, sublimely, from the whites, ranging from subtle means to outrage crap. I just go tell them straight off the bat with my texan accent (yes i grew up there as well as southern new mexico where my family's from) to tell them "Hey, Im a half red-neck. dont **** with me, buddy. I know people at the Human Resources, and trust me, you dont want me to claim you've been discriminating against me cuz of my skin as well as my deafness." and you can bet your arse those sweat beads start droping down on their forehead.

[Justin A.]

I'm not bitching about immigrants at all here, I'm sorry if that's how it came off to some people. I'm bitching that people will take a worker's issue - poor working conditions, long hours, asshat managers, etc., and turn it into a racial issue - i.e. saying that it's only the immigrants that have to deal with these conditions because they're so easy to take advantage of. The hotel that I work at employs 100% immigrants for utility positions - dishwashers, stewards, etc. They are among the hardest working people I've ever met. I fully appreciate the need for immigrant workers, since the hotel employs more people than live in my town...But ****ty working conditions in housekeeping is hardly a racial issue...the white people that do that job suffer just as much as the pair of jamacians or the puerto rican...

[bobdea]

HAHA, the only two Jamaicans in NH work as housekeepers

I think you just made a point there even though you didn't mean to.

My point was that these jobs like house keeping are such that often managers seek out people who can't afford to lose the jobs so they can treat them like **** and not pay them fair wages for what they are doing along with various other forms of ****ery, these tend to be disadvantaged people.

it goes like this 1 Illegals, they CAN'T do anything if you screw them because they get deported

2, Legal imigrants that are here on a work visa, if they quit or are fired they have to leave the country. they sometimes treated like indentured servents.

3, the working poor, they can't afford to lose their job because they are already not making ends meet. in places like Berlin NH and Rumford, ME you can find plenty of these types of people. this is why Sunday River gets away with paying people 6.50 a hour to do fairly hard jobs for that type of pay and why in NH places like cranmore try to get people to work 70 hours a week during the holidays(because they don't have to pay seasonal workers overtime). When people say no they threaten to fire them.

Often, the first two groups are part of the third and that just makes it easier to work them to the bone.

Most of the time the managers that do this are not evil or even bad people it's just that the corporate overlords demand that they spare every expense possible or the manager loses their job and they themselves become part of group three.

[Justin A.]

HAHA, the only two Jamaicans in NH work as housekeepers

I think you just made a point there even though you didn't mean to.

My point was that these jobs like house keeping are such that often managers seek out people who can't afford to lose the jobs so they can treat them like **** and not pay them fair wages for what they are doing along with various other forms of ****ery, these tend to be disadvantaged people.

it goes like this 1 Illegals, they CAN'T do anything if you screw them because they get deported

2, Legal imigrants that are here on a work visa, if they quit or are fired they have to leave the country. they sometimes treated like indentured servents.

3, the working poor, they can't afford to lose their job because they are already not making ends meet. in places like Berlin NH and Rumford, ME you can find plenty of these types of people. this is why Sunday River gets away with paying people 6.50 a hour to do fairly hard jobs for that type of pay and why in NH places like cranmore try to get people to work 70 hours a week during the holidays(because they don't have to pay seasonal workers overtime). When people say no they threaten to fire them.

Often, the first two groups are part of the third and that just makes it easier to work them to the bone.

Most of the time the managers that do this are not evil or even bad people it's just that the corporate overlords demand that they spare every expense possible or the manager loses their job and they themselves become part of group three.

Neg on the Jamacians thing - there's a boatload (literally :p ) of them that I work with, one of them is on the Hot Line, there are a few in the food court at the ski area, they're all over the place. Not as hard working as the Guatemalans that I work with, but good folk nonetheless.

In #3 you agreed with what I'm trying to say - it's not JUST a racial issue. People of every race are poor and get pissed on by "the man"...yesterday I heard the assistant F&B manager bitching to one of the salaried chefs about how they had to pay all of us time and a half yesterday...I damn near told him to **** himself and walk out...I can go over to the conway area and make twice what I make at the Mt Washington, and do it in a nicer restaurant to boot...but I like the people I work with, and I like the fringe benefits. But I'm getting off topic here.

[Derf]

It's about people working low paying jobs and the others thinking less of them for doing this. I used to be a bike messenger and got this when going in offices where big business goes on. Back then, it amounted to lower than minimal wage. I did this job because I liked cycling and some people think that we do this because we can't get/do better, which is often not the case. I spoke to some university grads who did this because they like cycling or being outside.

[wavechaser]

x 1,000,000

most immigrants that I have encountered are hard workers, do the work that is asked of them without b*tching, do not complain about their wages and do a better job than their American co-workers.

"immigrants" are NOT the same as "illegal aliens"...hope you are talking about the former.

[Erik J]

"immigrants" are NOT the same as "illegal aliens"...hope you are talking about the former.

Technically yes, but....

Immigrants = people

Illegal Aliens = people

From my experience working with both legal and illegal immigrants over the years, I've heard many reasons for people coming into this country. 100% of the time that I've heard was that these individuals desired a better life for themselves, their families etc.

Some of the reasons that I've heard inlcude:

-paying off schooling in Mexico. I've worked with guys that have graduated from universities in their own country with accounting degrees, law degrees, etc. These are professionals who pay off their college degrees by washing dishes or picking vegetables or landscaping, housekeeping etc.

-not earning enough in their own country because local crime forces them to pay up their farm wages or take a cut from their business. They've come to America to feed their families. Immigration can take YEARS. If your family was going hungry, what choice would you make. Many of those "illegals" that I've talked to have risked their lives coming over the border for the sake of their families. Yes, it is illegal, but these are not criminal minds intent on bad behavior.

I wish there were enough Americans willing to do the work that this country needs. From what I've seen, there's not.

[bobdea]

Technically yes, but....

Immigrants = people

Illegal Aliens = people

From my experience working with both legal and illegal immigrants over the years, I've heard many reasons for people coming into this country. 100% of the time that I've heard was that these individuals desired a better life for themselves, their families etc.

Some of the reasons that I've heard inlcude:

-paying off schooling in Mexico. I've worked with guys that have graduated from universities in their own country with accounting degrees, law degrees, etc. These are professionals who pay off their college degrees by washing dishes or picking vegetables or landscaping, housekeeping etc.

-not earning enough in their own country because local crime forces them to pay up their farm wages or take a cut from their business. They've come to America to feed their families. Immigration can take YEARS. If your family was going hungry, what choice would you make. Many of those "illegals" that I've talked to have risked their lives coming over the border for the sake of their families. Yes, it is illegal, but these are not criminal minds intent on bad behavior.

I wish there were enough Americans willing to do the work that this country needs. From what I've seen, there's not.

Common sense is the problem, the government lacks it.

Simple issue, get everyone paying taxes and on the books, even illegals.

The people who think it's rewarding them for breaking the law need to shut the **** up or start paying higher taxes to make up for the illegals not paying taxes because they are here and nothing is going to change that. It's a matter of getting people to pay in, not hanging on principal because you think it's wrong.

Even deporting everyone would be so massively expensive just in transportation costs that it's impossible.

Security wise it would be better to really tackle that issue too because then you can find out where people are much more easily if they're paying taxes.

illegals tend to work hard as hell.

[wavechaser]

Technically yes, but....

Immigrants = people

Illegal Aliens = people

From my experience working with both legal and illegal immigrants over the years, I've heard many reasons for people coming into this country. 100% of the time that I've heard was that these individuals desired a better life for themselves, their families etc.

Some of the reasons that I've heard inlcude:

-paying off schooling in Mexico. I've worked with guys that have graduated from universities in their own country with accounting degrees, law degrees, etc. These are professionals who pay off their college degrees by washing dishes or picking vegetables or landscaping, housekeeping etc.

-not earning enough in their own country because local crime forces them to pay up their farm wages or take a cut from their business. They've come to America to feed their families. Immigration can take YEARS. If your family was going hungry, what choice would you make. Many of those "illegals" that I've talked to have risked their lives coming over the border for the sake of their families. Yes, it is illegal, but these are not criminal minds intent on bad behavior.

I wish there were enough Americans willing to do the work that this country needs. From what I've seen, there's not.

I'm not trying to put you down here, and I understand why you think as you do, given your experiences. You and I are entitled to our opinions of course - but I want to make some points, many from direct experience, which you may not have considered.

It doesn't really matter what their reasons are...they are in this country illegally and should be removed. My main point above is that illegal aliens are not immigrants. There is no such thing as an "illegal immigrant". They may not be "criminal minds" - but they are criminals none the less, having broken the law. Do you have any idea what other contries - Mexico chief among them - do with illegal entrants into theitr country? It's taken very seriously.

I'm sure many of the illegals are hard workers and nice people - and yes, I know some of them personally...and yes, I've reported some to ICE. The constantly regurgitated argument that they do the work Americans won't doesn't hold any water. I live in a state that has EXTREMELY few illegal aliens (except for the odd Canadian snowboarder ) and the work gets done just fine.

They need to help their families - I understand that - and yes, in their shoes I might do the same (but hard to know for sure). But when an American family goes hungry because illegals are driving the wages down or simply working for less because it is worth more when sent back home, isn't that six of one and half a dozen of the other? I know plenty of people back where I used to live who had to leave their jobs, and then their hometowns, because their employers were hiring illegals at half the wage those people were making. One of the reasons I left was that there were so many Brazilian illegals that the whole community changed. The court systems were clogged. The insurance rates started going up dramatically. There was crime and types of crime there had never been before their influx. In short, it was a mess. Not to mention the drain on our health care, welfare, and legal systems - along with car accidents with no insurance...where I used to live they just leave the scene of the accident every time if physically able and a property owner with damage may be left holding the bag. And don't kid yourself - plenty of them are criminals too. There is a VERY GOOD REASON we have immigration laws. And it SHOULD take years. How do you think it makes legal immigrants feel when others sidestep the system they worked so hard to adhere to. Ask one sometime.

If one is in a country where it is well-known that local crime takes from businesses etc. - and one is smart enough to go for and get a college degree, and wants to raise a family - I would think that person would be smart enough to plan ahead and file for immigration into America early on. Waiting until it takes an illegal act to make their plans come to fruition is just plain dumb. And if it is so impossible to make it in Mexico (used in this case as an example of the most obvious and plentiful source of illegals) then why are there so many sucessful businesses in Mexico? It's not like it is a totally criminal country and government.

I'm not talking about removing the ones already here - that is impossible of course - but we need to shut the door NOW! This is one of the biggest problems facing our contry right now and in SO many ways it will be our downfall if it is not taken care of. Bank on it.

[Guest KrudKarver]

There are two basic reasons for immigration: Much higher pay than "home" (or at least a shot at it.), and, the chance to offer their offspring/family a better life (either through less violence, more money, better education, etc.).

Who wouldn't want that (and who here doesn't work their asses off to try and build something better for themselves/family??)? Most, if not all of us would rather be carvin' it up somewhere, but hey, bills to pay, right?!

The illegal alien situation is becoming the silent killer for the us economy and the us workers. Why is it that illegals should be allowed to use the services we pay for through taxes/insurance/fee's for nothing?? Just because they do the work others wont? Would they still do the same jobs if they were taxed/deducted the same rate we are?

There would be a strong desire on their part towards higher paying jobs if all the fee's, taxes, insurances were taken out of their check..ya' think??!!!

We know this 'CAUSE WE'RE LIVING IT!

so, basically, my problem isn't with the immigrants.. it's with our politicians who let this go on.. the working class citizen is picking up the tab for the illegal workforce so that the people who employ them make more money

and I think it's crap...

[Guest KrudKarver]

..and no, I am not saying all immigrants are illegals.

[bobdea]

There are two basic reasons for immigration: Much higher pay than "home" (or at least a shot at it.), and, the chance to offer their offspring/family a better life (either through less violence, more money, better education, etc.).

Who wouldn't want that (and who here doesn't work their asses off to try and build something better for themselves/family??)? Most, if not all of us would rather be carvin' it up somewhere, but hey, bills to pay, right?!

The illegal alien situation is becoming the silent killer for the us economy and the us workers. Why is it that illegals should be allowed to use the services we pay for through taxes/insurance/fee's for nothing?? Just because they do the work others wont? Would they still do the same jobs if they were taxed/deducted the same rate we are?

There would be a strong desire on their part towards higher paying jobs if all the fee's, taxes, insurances were taken out of their check..ya' think??!!!

We know this 'CAUSE WE'RE LIVING IT!

so, basically, my problem isn't with the immigrants.. it's with our politicians who let this go on.. the working class citizen is picking up the tab for the illegal workforce so that the people who employ them make more money

and I think it's crap...

pretty well said, the issue is that neither party is really willing to attack the issue, the republicans refuse to go after the people hiring people illegally and the democrats just refuse to take action at all because they either piss off people who hire border hoppers or lose the latino vote.

our government has become useless

putting up a fence is the best idea anyone could come up with

[LeeW]

Im not very much in endorsing the idea of the wall. Too much like Berlin or the great wall of china.

[D-Sub]

Im not very much in endorsing the idea of the wall. Too much like Berlin or the great wall of china.

How does the Great Wall have any negative connotation?

[tex1230]

How does the Great Wall have any negative connotation?

discrimination against Mongolian Hordes.

Duh...

[Erik J]

<O:p</O:p

It doesn't really matter what their reasons are...they are in this country illegally and should be removed.

<O:p</O:p

I'm not talking about removing the ones already here - that is impossible of course - but we need to shut the door NOW! This is one of the biggest problems facing our contry right now and in SO many ways it will be our downfall if it is not taken care of. Bank on it.

<O:p</O:p

The American consumer is the one that "banks on it". When people shop for the lowest price food, hotel, car wash, etc they keep their savings for themselves. The employer needs to find a way to be competetive so he /she keeps labor, inventory, etc down. If Americans are willing to pay more for the cost of goods - ESPECIALLY food, then pony up. I'd bet more Americans would take the jobs if working in a field payed more, but then the cost of just about everything would rise. Then what? Are we back to where we started? "Closing the door now" would kill our economy faster than anything.<O:p</O:p

My main point above is that illegal aliens are not immigrants. There is no such thing as an "illegal immigrant". They may not be "criminal minds" - but they are criminals none the less, having broken the law. Do you have any idea what other contries - Mexico chief among them - do with illegal entrants into theitr country? It's taken very seriously.

<O:p</O:p

I am very curious, what do they do to illegal immigrants in other countries? I'm asking honestly.<O:p</O:p

I'm sure many of the illegals are hard workers and nice people - and yes, I know some of them personally...and yes, I've reported some to ICE. The constantly regurgitated argument that they do the work Americans won't doesn't hold any water. I live in a state that has EXTREMELY few illegal aliens (except for the odd Canadian snowboarder ) and the work gets done just fine.

<O:p</O:p

From my personal experience - immigrants will do the work that Americans won't. We are obviously both from different places and will form different opinions. I speak from my experience and I hope that you speak from yours. I went through 15 dishwashers in 3 months - all gringos. The guys that were reliable, worked hard, etc were immigrants. When one of them gets sick, they send in a replacement. The gringos I've hired call 1/2 hour before their shift to tell me to find someone else. Whenit comes time to pick produce around here, the hours are LONG, the work is hard and I don't see Americans doing the work.

What are the chief industries in your state? Do you work within those industries? I'm surrounded by rich caucasians that want their open space, their shopping and cheap services all rolled into one. I'm also surrounded by independent farms that would never survive if not for the immigrant labor. I know the farmers and their workers - I hear the same sad story all the time - lots of work with not enough workers.

They need to help their families - I understand that - and yes, in their shoes I might do the same (but hard to know for sure). But when an American family goes hungry because illegals are driving the wages down or simply working for less because it is worth more when sent back home, isn't that six of one and half a dozen of the other? I know plenty of people back where I used to live who had to leave their jobs, and then their hometowns, because their employers were hiring illegals at half the wage those people were making.

So what is a small, independent business owner to do? We may be talking about different areas of business and different sizes of companies. FWIW, I moved out of my own home town because of high taxes, blah, blah, blah.

The consumer drives the market. Consumers don't want to pay big money for basic necessities like food.

One of the reasons I left was that there were so many Brazilian illegals that the whole community changed. The court systems were clogged. The insurance rates started going up dramatically. There was crime and types of crime there had never been before their influx. In short, it was a mess. Not to mention the drain on our health care, welfare, and legal systems - along with car accidents with no insurance...where I used to live they just leave the scene of the accident every time if physically able and a property owner with damage may be left holding the bag. And don't kid yourself - plenty of them are criminals too.

I would never asuume that every immigrant has a heart of gold just like every employer is not a greedy a-hole.

<O:p</O:p

There is a VERY GOOD REASON we have immigration laws. And it SHOULD take years. How do you think it makes legal immigrants feel when others sidestep the system they worked so hard to adhere to. Ask one sometime.

<O:p</O:p

From what I've seen, this country needs to make legal work visas easier and faster to get. And yes, everyone should pay taxes - If I'm payin' em, yer all payin too. I'm not condoning illegals. There are none in my business.

I have a friend who owns a pizza shop. He's been paying taxes for 18 years since he came to America from Mexico - he still can't get his full citizenship - 18 years is a long time to wait.

<O:p</O:p

If one is in a country where it is well-known that local crime takes from businesses etc. - and one is smart enough to go for and get a college degree, and wants to raise a family - I would think that person would be smart enough to plan ahead and file for immigration into America early on. Waiting until it takes an illegal act to make their plans come to fruition is just plain dumb. And if it is so impossible to make it in Mexico (used in this case as an example of the most obvious and plentiful source of illegals) then why are there so many sucessful businesses in Mexico? It's not like it is a totally criminal country and government.

<O:p</O:p

I can't explain why this is as I don't know enough about the Mexican gov't. But I've also never been in their shoes and I will not pass judgment. I will not assume to know anything about their life. <O:p</O:p

[Erik J]

Damn - my quotes didn't work. Anyway...

I've found it difficult to get a point across on the internet. I'm sure I've skipped over lots of my own thoughts. I look forward to reading others points of view.