My first day of hard booting!

[JK moscraciun]

I find this site/forum about one year ago and reading it almost day by day since!

So this is my story (sorry for my poor english)

After 3 year of skidding around on soft boots and telling people that I’m snowboarding, finding this forum was like “Hey I need to learn to walk again”

All the tech articles, al the discussions, advices has been so eye-opening for me that I instantly wanted to be part of this great community with such a passion and dedication for this sport!

Short story long: After one year of reading this forum and admiring al your photos and movies finally last month I decided to buy the gear and find somebody to teach me!

In normal circumstances this should be easy but in Romania(where I’m living) where this form of snowboarding virtually is inexistent, was quite a challenge! Demo-ing or renting something was out of question and finally when I found a guy (who is riding soft boots these days, a former racer) he gave me a 2hour crash course on body position, how to initiate a turn, crossover and cross under (he said is the best technique for Romania where we don’t have groomed slopes, only naturally soft/hard/choppy/ice/slushy or whatever God given slope conditions)

Buying the equipment was more a question of availability then choice. Buying boots online was another thing to put me of but finally I ordered everything from Bluetomato.com > 06/07 F2 Silberpfeil 168, F2 Intec TitanFlex plates, 06/07 HeadStratos Boots & intec heels!

So here I am finding myself in a 6 day vacation in Tignes > France on infinite perfectly groomed slopes with no other technique than softbooting and the Norm I&II and all the rest of the tech articles printed and folded in my pockets!

Except of the fist couple of runs when I was fighting(getting used to) the gear and after some stance adjustments, I was blown away, I was in shock of how much more comfortable it was than I expected compared to softboot(in terms of support in the lower leg) how unimaginable the edge hold was!

I was struggling to get lower, continuously having in mind the but’s in’s and out’s the advices on the shoulder and hips position and rotation!

In the steeps and crowds it was a totaly shameful skid-turning experience or locking in the turn and miss the transition and/or skid the next turn etc!

<O:p

Anyway it was the best snowboarding experience ever for me! I’m out speeded and carved my skier friends and when I curved my first 360(on a mild blue run) you should see the expressions on their faces!!!;-)

I’m totally hooked, keen to learn and determined advocate for the sport!

I know that my photo’s aren’t worthy to bee posted here! Don’t shoot me, please give me any advice to help me improve!

Thank you BOL community!

J.K.

[Fat Old Bastard]

Mate no need to apologize for your English or your riding or your photos. The only thing that matters is that you are having fun. :) BlueTomato rock so well done on getting your Silberpfeil from them. And thank you for joining the BOL community ! Happy boarding ! :D

[Gecko]

you now have become a part of one of the most addicting disciplines of snowboarding

[pebu]

I'm still a noobie to the sport too, considering the time some of these guys have spent on alpine boards. It really is amazing the difference between skidding and carving. If I had to give you some advice, here are three tips that should get you feeling alot better quicker.

1.) Level out those shoulders. As in the articles, they should be parallel to the slope, whichever direction you're going. Try to keep your hands in a bit, but don't be afraid to get your elbows up a bit to help straighten out your shoulders.

2.) On heelside turns, turn into it. One of the best tricks is to put your trailing hand on your leading knee. Doing that helps keep your nose down on the ground for turn initiation and helps keep your weight where you want it. I.E., you won't be "sitting on the toilet".

3.) On toe side, get your hip down towards the snow. Keep your shoulders where they should be, but get that hip down and you'll really get some angulation while keeping that edge in the snow so you don't wash out. Jack Michauds recent artical explains it quite well.

Oh, and I forgot 4.) Have a blast...

Here's to long days and long seasons...

[Jack M]

Ahh, nothing like a good blindside to wake me up in the morning.

Sheesh!

Bordy, I know several of the articles are old and in need of updating.

However the Norm has worked to get countless new hardbooters carving. It is certainly not dead.

I know, facing the nose of the board is not necessary. However when teaching newbies anything, more often than not you have to tell them to overshoot the target in order for them to hit the target.

In my experience, simply telling a new carver to face their binding angles is not enough. They usually end up facing the toe edge. This is the worst of bad habits and it must be prevented or broken before anything further can be accomplished.

I wish that you would have contacted me directly with your recommendations for improving our library of information for new carvers. You know I value your opinion.

Thanks for your support. :(

[pebu]

Well I can't argue with that... Not because I agree, but because I'll get chastised by disputing someone who knows more than me.

The tips I gave were intended to give a good strong base to build on. They're all tips that helped me get where I am and feel really good about how I'm carving.

Shoulders. As far as I'm concerned, you should try to keep your shoulders approximately equidistant from the snow. You don't have to turn yourself into a pretzle, just try to keep close to parallel.

Hands. I'm not saying that your hands should be in your pockets.. Just keep them in a bit to avoid "petting the dog". I'd like to think most everybody here thinks petting the dog is a no-no.

Heelside. This is the only trick that has helped me keep my edge in the snow. It helps keep me from twisting so I'm facing the rear toe-edge corner. Talk about bad form. And I don't know about anybody else, but I can still touch my knee even though my weight has shifted back a little bit.

Knees/hips. I can be standing still and drive my knees to the ground. If you want that feeling of commitment I think it's necessary to put your hip down. It keeps your ass down and keeps you from reaching down for the snow.

The hips are up and out. This is the exact opposite of what usually happens naturally on heelside. This is an unbalanced position. The center of gravity is high, so to compensate the rider tilts their upper body down into the carve, and reaches for the snow.

I'd also like to note a couple things about the pics in Jack's article. Shoulders are fairly equidistant from the snow, hands are ready, but not waving out or petting the dog and on the heelside the rear hands are very near the knees.

I've adapted to using very similar techniques on my soft board with my softboots and it works and feels quite well.

I know that I'm still fairly new here and to carving and I know that none of you have seen me board. I can't prove how board, even to myself. All I do know is it feels DAMN good and I get a heck of alot of compliments who think I snowboard really well. (I only feel like I board moderately well.)

And who said that old school is bad???

It's ok bordy, I'd probably still have a beer with ya. Probably....:)

Edit.

That took a while and there's a couple new things up that I havne't read. IT's lunch time, I'll take a look later.

[willywhit]

totally, last sunday night my buddy put a printed copy of The Norm and Cross Under/ Cross Over under my nose and I read it while enjoying plenny Jager,Goldschlager, beers, etc. He was like ...dude, you do this stuff and don't even realize it.I've never read any of this stuff but it started to make sense. He's all stoked about carving now and throwing it down at speed.

I think your body figures out what works if you just ride hard and....fast.

[Dave ESPI]

I bet those Head boots are one of the most comfortable things you have ever worn also right ?

I love my pair.

This is my first official season on a carve board with hardboots also. While I've been having agressive ride style and very advanced stances and leaning with my race style on a softboot set up, The transition for me was easier because I have always rode with both feet set forward in stance with a 3 strap burton binding that has a shin strap, so when I'd lean, the board would pull up with the locking high back also.

Now that I've progressed in my skill, and realise I really do love the hardboots on a "perfect" day of surface, I'll always have it with me when I go somewhere :)

[Jim]

Hang in there guy. You may want to look into developing an exercise routine that strengthens your torso along with a solid leg workout. Carving is tough to learn without above average strength. Have another carver examine your binding setup for small adjustments that may hold you back. And carve with other carvers whenever possible.

Also, The above debate is why BOL is alive and well.

[tex1230]

Soft bootin it since winter of 1998 (or sometime close)

Hard bootin it since December 2006.

It used to be about makin' it down,

Now it's about cuttin it up

Things I have learned on Bomber

14) people who started carving last month and give advice on proper technique are really funny.

[Jack M]

I'm not sure if you've got a handle on what the Norm is and for what/who it is intended...

I rarley see anyone teaching or coaching at the upper levels of the sport using any of the "Norm" Technigue

The Norm is meant to get someone to carve who has never carved before. Nobody who knows how to carve rides around in the Norm.

And, "upper levels of the <i>sport</i>".... do you mean racing or freecarving? Because as far as I can tell the two have some common ground, but also several mutually exclusive goals.

Realisticly you could place you body in hundreds of positions to start maintain and finish a carved turn, the board really only needs to be on edge and the rider to maintain balance.

Agreed, completely. This is what the Norm attempts to illustrate - that your snowboard will carve a turn without you really doing anything other than putting it on edge.

But by placing the rider into balanced postions to start with it is much easier to progress.

A new hardbooter, especially if they are coming from softboots, typically has no idea what sidecut is or what it does. They think they have to steer and push the board around. The Norm shows them that they don't have to do that. It shows them how to let their sidecut work. If you don't do this first, I don't see how a new carver will recognize the carving sensation they are shooting for.

Counter rotation, poor fore- aft weighting are all parts of the norm style, and are counter productive to good strong balanced alpine riding using current gear.

The Norm says nothing about counter-rotation. That is another of its goals - to eliminate the swiveling at the waist that plagues softbooters and many skiers, and to get the board and body turning in space as one unit. I've just re-skimmed the two Norm articles and I see nothing about fore-aft weighting.

The Norm is a powerful style that depends on the flex and support of the board boots and bindings, often forcing the rider to make masive amounts of leverage to counter the forces created in the turn. I really like the idea of maintaing balance on top of the board and moving with it inside and of each turn staying centered and balanced over the platform under your feet. using the energy created by the board to move through and into the next turn. The Norm means you need to be really powerful and forceful while the technigue most upper level riders use is more fluid and about control to maintain balance and speed as well as prolong the amount of riding on the same amount of calories.

Again, really at a loss here. I don't see where in the articles this is coming from.

I beleave the Norm to be outdated, and over kill.

I wish that you would have contacted me directly with your recommendations for improving our library of information for new carvers. You know I value your opinion.

Sorry, I'm not trying to discredit you or the norm just point out its old school. Your not still riding Asyms are ya?

:) Touché. Still, I don't see how it's old-school, outdated or overkill to tell people to strip away all extraneous motion and simply feel their sidecut work (typically for the first time). Is Newtonian Physics outdated? I missed the memo.

Thanks for your support. :( Jack Like I said its nothing personal, just how I feel.

Do you really feel as though I dont support Alpine riding, or just the BOL articles

Not at all man, you know that. I just think that you as the resident racing guru and me as the freecarve guy could be a good team. Wish you would have wanted to work together on improving things.

As I said I love what you bring to BOL. Thank you!

Well, thanks, but then why take pot-shots at it?

I gotta go. I'm about to be ill.

[pebu]

Just got back and read some stuff..

Tex (and others)

I know how it sounds. I never really meant to imply that I'm a snowboarding god (whether or not it is true... :D). But sometimes I think it helps to hear it from another beginner. I'm just relaying what helped, and continues to help me.

Again, I am not a hardbooting god (for legal purposes..)

I'm not really sure who is on who's side here (not that there are sides) and if I mis-represented or mis-interpreted jacks articles, it wasn't my intention at all. It's just what I interpreted them as I guess.

Again, they're just three things that I keep in the back of my head whenever I go.

[carvedog]

Just looking at your pics and not getting into the other arguments above.

If you are looking for feedback I will comment on photos as I am visual and don't have the verbal skills to want to debate. But I will say Pebu, that until you learn a little more about movement analysis don't tell someone who is already over rotated to to rotate more into the heel side.

In all three pics your front hand is behind you.(except maybe first pic in red coat) This will cause unbalanced position and hard to recover from changing terrain and conditions. Keep hands out in front where you can see at the edge of vision at least.

Leaning back on heel side in second pic with hand behind causing straighter front leg and harder to initiate toe turn.

Hand is behind on last pic (toeside) causing straight front leg. Press that front knee into it more, stay evenly flexed on both legs and turn earlier on toe.

Think about building angles in the body early in the turn so you can get the board up on edge earlier.

No one has to agree with me just giving feedback based on three small photos.

Also stay stoked on have fun.

[BShaw]

First week riding, I think you look great. What you will notice, is the more you ride, the more you will figure out what is working for you and what is working against you.

As your speed increases (if that's a goal), you will make corrections to keep the length of your edge from slipping.

As you get lower in turns, again, you will make corrections to keep the edge from slipping.

Many of us do this in a lot of diffent ways. I myself am always making adjustments to equipment, style of riding, ect.

The Norm may not be what some people think is the perfect (modern) way to carve down the hill, but hell, that is how many of us started, including myself. The norm puts one style of riding in simple english, making it easier for you to get started. You will likely change your style from there.

And if your anything like me, you will re-read all the tech arctiles, many times over trying to figure out what will work for you next.

And yes, the more you read about the styles, the more confusing it gets...

Good luck and keep riding...

[BShaw]

Oh yeah, and in those pic's, you still look better than 99% of all the snowboarders I see on the slopes. Trust me, people on the lifts are likely watching you make all of your runs...

[carvedog]

Oh yeah, and in those pic's, you still look better than 99% of all the snowboarders I see on the slopes. Trust me, people on the lifts are likely watching you make all of your runs...

I know that my photo’s aren’t worthy to bee posted here! Don’t shoot me, please give me any advice to help me improve!

Thank you BOL community!

J.K.

Seems like you think I was being too hard on him from your post. But if you look he actually asked for help and examination not props on first week riding. Super important to correct unaligned riding position early in the curve before muscle memory etc make it into a habit that's hard to break.

[BShaw]

No, I was refering to his riding progression in general. I feel it is near impossible to correct some riding flaw with only 3 pic's. Also, there are too many different riding styles to choose from.

-I would also recomend he keeps his hands out front.

-He is not counter rotating, I do not feel over rotating is a big issue, especially if his end goal is an EC style of riding.

(my style of riding, only)

Turn initiation's-

Hell, I probably do this wrong. I initiate toe side turns by driving my back knee very hard towards the hill. Shifting my weight from the back of the board through the Front. And pretty much the exact opposite for my heel sides, shifting weight from the front of the board to back.

Transitions-

I'm not even sure what I do here, cross-over, cross-under, cross-through. Although, I definetely use a lot of the push-pull technique in my riding.

Also, I ride wider, shorter boards with a lot less binding angle (easier on my bad knees). Next season I will be on a Coiler EX (24cm waist, 12.7scr).

[BShaw]

LOL, Definitely in Michigan. :)

although I "think" I was agreeing with everything you wrote.

[BShaw]

I don't think I offered any advise.

"Really didn't mean to offend you."

Maybe keep your hands more out front, but I guess that's more of a personal oppinion, although I don't think I would call petting the dog a fundimental. "I" prefer to keep my elbo in and my hand out front, I can recover quicker if I loose and edge (due to snow conditions of course).

So would I still comment, yeah probably.

Would I drink a beer with you. Hell yeah, although, I prefer stouts.

[BShaw]

I'm not offended, Just broken on the couch.

I'm a little bored and sad this season has come to an end. This is the first weekend I am not riding.

If style is the personal interpretation of technique, and people are trying to read and interpret the norm technique online it seems as though there is room for not error, but issues of interpretation? Because of that it seems many riders who learn to ride via the Internet develop boundaries set by the information.

I definitely agree.

I really believe there is no substitute for hands on instruction and wish it was available world wide. And I could probably use additional instruction myself, and unfortuneately unavailable.

My interest in this thread is to improve my understanding of most BOL member’s interpretation of the norm technique. I am curious because you say you learned to ride via the norm, was it done all by yourself on BOL. Did you have help on the hill etc.? Yes and No. As a lot of members of this board, I started out by reading and tried to turn that into snowbording. Although I think I do a good job for myself, reading a technique and being able to visualize what I need to be doing. "Sort of like dreaming", I think being able to snowboard in your mind, and feeling what you should be doing before you go out really helps. Back to the question- I did have some free instruction from an older guy when I started out. (He was not a member, nor ever herd of this board) He was/is a snowbord instructor, and racer (GS on snowboard). He did help me to correct my technique in the begining. Everything he helped me with, fit into the "Norm" style of riding. Boarded with him a couple of times, from their on my own.

I asked about the photos because I have deffently notice new riders who take the time to photos get very mixed input from all levels of riders. I would agree. Any input I provide, I can only reference myself, and obstacles I have overcome.

But when riders post video the advise only seems to come from riders who have a diversified background. Also it seems the advise comes from veteran teachers, coachs. Yes, with video, I think that's what we all hope for. Why? Most of us are not willing to put ourselves out like that, and use others videos and comments from Veterans/Coaces to help our own riding. (Side Note- these all should be moved to a different section of the board under instruction and easily referenced)

However when their are no photos it like a free for all advise frenzy from everyone. Again, this makes it real open to interpretation.

What media do you think is the best way for new riders to be evaluated and do you think it is currently working well. Or should all riders seek instruction locally if possible? And disreguard a bunch of internet chatter? Unfortuneately, for most of us, this is the only option. I have seen many (not all) Instructors (locally) in soft boots, snowboarding in thier free time, And the do not look all that great. And I defintely "Do Not" use them as a guide as I picture myself riding. "Good" hard boot instruction is not available.

And also if its not to persnal I'm curious what your level of instruction/coaching was and what was the best benifit in your personal learning. Not much instruction at all, close to none. I learn to ride watching video of others and visualize myself, doing the same thing, running through position, weight transfer, actually knowing what forces I should be feeling as I am riding. On occasion, I will watch video of myself so I can make my own corrections. I know what I would like to look like when I am carving, and I correct my riding to do just that.

One more note - I would consider myself an advance snowboarder on intermediate slops. And would be considered a strong Intermediate in the carving community. Hoping some day to be an advanced carver.

[Bordy]

Thanks for your response!

[FTA2R]

Fellow Brothers,

I would like to be recognized as the undisputed BOLTK (Bomber Online Technique King).

I have honed my skills through weekend warriage of 600 - 1000 Mid Atlantic foot slopes. I have a few seasons hardbootin' in my pocket, i've even raced NASTAR once. I also have done SnowPerf Camp, and for 2 days, I was ready to ride with the big boys!! After many weeks of hard training, I was even able to ride for 45 seconds straight before collapsing. I own more than 7 boards (even though I only ride 5 days / year) and although I'm very light, I've taken the time to successfully reverse engineer Burton Race bindings and therefor have "exposed" them and even a light guy like me can break them. I HAVE SCIENTIFICALLY ESTABLISHED THAT BURTON RACE BINDINGS ARE ONLY SUITABLE FOR THOSE RIDERS WEIGHING LESS THAN 132.34567895425 LBS!!!! FOR YEARS, I HAVE SPENT SATURDAY NIGHTS MEMORIZING THE BOL TECH ARTICLES- please do not question my knowledge!! Please also do not attempt to look for video footage of me online- although it does exist, it is not fair for the masses to see b/c, quite frankly, almost none of you will ever be able to reach that level (except for CMC of course).

My specialties include: wipeouts of all types (accidentally riding /sliding off the trail, cartwheels, collissions (esp. T-boning), riding with multiple accessories (ipod, camelbak), and turning heads on the lift and having people come up to me COMPLEMENTING MY WIPEOUTS, and preaching the Alpine Gospel. I have SUCCESSFULLY CONVERTED several ignorant softbooters. They ended up burning their soft setups when they SAW THE LIGHT. Lastly, for you guys out there with weak game, I've pioneered a method of meeting an attractive snow bunny literally on the slopes. In short, it involves mastery of one of my other techniques - collissions, along with a bit of acting. A time tested technique, It WILL get you the girl!!!!

I have a tentative book deal "Hardbooting for Dummies." Hopefully some of you will join me to co-author this? The disclaimer will be most unique. Shortly, I wil be starting a new site where beginners will teach experts. Flame wars will be encouraged and special accounts will be given to those few with an excessive number of posts. These accounts will have the ability to erase / remove themselves from the board. :lol: :D

[carvedog]

No, I was refering to his riding progression in general. I feel it is near impossible to correct some riding flaw with only 3 pic's. Also, there are too many different riding styles to choose from.

After teaching beginners in the thousands, intermediates in the several hundreds and carve specific lessons in the close to two hundred days, I think I can tell quite a lot from a couple of pics. Particularly stance alignment issues.

Any time I see the lead shoulder drop behind the rider (meaning his ass), that leads to problems in balance, toeside turn initiation and heelside edge hold. When I see a straight front leg ( unless your throwing a huge stinky stiffy or something in the pipe) that usually means alignment and fore, aft weight issues as well as turn initiation.

-He is not counter rotating, I do not feel over rotating is a big issue, especially if his end goal is an EC style of riding.

Au contraire mon amis. I would almost bet that he is counter rotating (meaning arms generally going in the opposite direction of the new turn) at least on toe side - Leading arm moving behind instead of toward the toe side of the board. At least riding countered. And over rotating is not a big deal until you can't connect two turns and your heel side starts to wash out at the end.

Hell, I probably do this wrong. I initiate toe side turns by driving my back knee very hard towards the hill. Shifting my weight from the back of the board through the Front. And pretty much the exact opposite for my heel sides, shifting weight from the front of the board to back.

Here we get into the whole language thing. Do you mean nose and tail or heelside and toeside?? What does front and back mean?? See thread here:

http://bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=14896&highlight=toeside

And if you mean shifting weight form the nose to the tail and back from the tail to nose, try some turns without shifting nose to tail just driving front knee very early in the turn. Start slow and be ready for some incredibly quick turns. Just something to think about.

So when someone asks for help and I take the time to give it, disagree with me if you will. But with some reason, not just telling the guy - you look great to me keep riding like you are and maybe in five years you will have to totally restructure your riding because you rode in a stance that didn't even have basic alignment. Oh wait, you didn't say that. That is just what I heard.

Who knows maybe I am full of shiite, but this guy is eagerly looking for help, with no other resources at all to draw on and I am going to try to make sure he gets the best info that he can. Not just you are doing great keep it up.

So jk keep up the enthusiasm. Take what you read ( especially off the net ) with a grain of salt, and I wish you could come ride with someone as it is surely one of the best ways to push your style.

I sure don't teach as much as I used to but I have 13 years teaching, fully certified AASI and division examiner and I question everything that any tells me about technique by trying it out myself. OK I'm done. Love to all.