Erratic behavior

[jnshapiro]

The code may be just a guide, but it's also the law in most jurisdictions. There're civil lawsuits every year as a result of impacts between people. The code is used by the courts to help decide who is at fault and paying for the injuries sustained.

Bottom line is that your best defence is just that. Pay attention and yield. Keep looking around and don't take anything for granted. Assume that the other people on the slopes don't know the code and won't see you. Kinda like when riding a motorcycle.

[queequeg]

We are probably thinking almost the same thing. I am just having trouble with the interpretation of "ahead" in rule #2 to mean "in front." I think "ahead" could, and likely does, also refer to "ahead on the trail."

I'm sure that you are right in the sense that the word "ahead" means "any way that the word ahead could reasonably be interpreted." The language for the code of responsibility was considered carefully, and that its vagueness is purposeful. They probably didn't qualify "ahead" with any additional description in order to widen the scope of it's meaning and thus the extent to which each rider/skier is responsible for avoiding other people. My main point, in my previous post was that it did not use the word "downhill", and I'm pretty sure that if they meant "downhill" they would have said "downhill". Really this rule just means "don't hit anything that you can see or are moving towards ... eg: it's your responsibility to avoid stuff and not run directly into it."

The thing about making a hard turn and hitting someone on the other side of the trail is tricky because there is a moment where neither of you can see one another, this is an issue that is governed more by "ski in control" than "the person in front of you has the right of way" because you should both be capable of taking effective evasive measures, if you are in control.

1. You should scope the trail uphill and downhill before you make tracks, so that you will not be descending in a crowd.

2. You should be looking where you are going and where you are about to go.

3. You should not push yourself so hard that you are unable to make evasive measures in the event that someone just out of your field of vision during turn initiation enters your path at the apex of your turn.

4. If you are riding so hard that you cannot take appropriate evasive measures you are out of control.

I think that the important thing to keep in mind is that everyone rides/skis with a different style for better or for worse. Everyone should bear the same amount of responsibility for accident prevention but we all know that is not the case, because many people on the slopes do not consider the consequences of their actions, unloading the burden on the rest of us.

I really, really wish that the ski patrol wasn't just a glorified ambulance service but they are, there is a simple financial reason for this, if mountains clipped every irresponsible skier's ticket on the slopes they'd start losing money fast. That's why I've always believed that we should have "licences" like we do for driving and that said licences would be tied to a point system where X amount of points means you lose your licence and are relagated to green runs only. A licencing system would also allow someone to carry their reputation with them from one mountain to another. But I digress ...

The code is not about assigning blame (although in the event of a lawsuit, it serves that purpose), it's about preventing accidents.

I am king of the run-on sentence!

[Buell]

Thanks queequeg. It is interesting to me, that if we interpret rule #1 strictly, almost any collision is both parties fault. No way around it. We'd all be riding much slower than we do. That it is rule #1 is certainly intentional, though most of us, including me, try to ignore it.

I really, really wish that the ski patrol wasn't just a glorified ambulance service but they are, there is a simple financial reason for this, if mountains clipped every irresponsible skier's ticket on the slopes they'd start losing money fast. That's why I've always believed that we should have "licences" like we do for driving and that said licences would be tied to a point system where X amount of points means you lose your licence

That is exactly right. When the resorts run with the "customer is aways right" business mentality, this is what results. Even a lecture by patrol could possibly lose the mountain a "customer." Maybe it is not that extreme, but it sure can feel like it. Licensing and testing would also allow the rules to be more thorough, rather than over simplified. See how fast the resorts reject that for their "customers."

[David Glynn]

1. Always stay in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way.

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.

Let's look at the code.

1. Always stay in control. If you hit someone-you're not in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way. If you're warping across the slope and a skier crosses your plane and you hit his hind quarters who has the right of way?

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look up hill and yield. If you're warping across the slope and you're technically going up hill till the transition and you hit a skier you've failed at "starting downhill"

Bummpy ride- from my experience as an ex ski patroler your take on the skiers code is all wrong. Both parties in a collision are not always at fault; the person in motion as the uphill rider is at fault. It is their responsibility to look ahead over the whole run below them and adjust their riding to allow them to avoid anything unexpected and anyone's unexpected movement's- period.

Your comments on #4 are also off base. "When starting downhill" refers to someone in a stationary position not to someone in motion; and "......or merging, look uphill and yield." refers to a merging trail situation not to a rider in motion making turns on the same slope.

It is the person above who has the ability to see the slope below them ( and should have the understanding that those below them can not see them) and that is why they have the responsibility to avoid any and all riders below them no matter what those people do! There are just way too many people on the slopes that do not understand this simple rule or ignor it and refuse to ride with caution and courtesy and instead force things thru time after time. The worst offenders are the straightlinners! I see it every day and if I were still on patrol there would be a lot fewer of them on the mountain.

On the other hand to carve on and through a crowded slope is irresponsible. It sounds like most of us are of the wait and carve types and ride with caution and courtesy but we can't look over our shoulders evry turn!

[Fleaman]

I have been involved in a few collisions. I find skiers try to mimic my lines but can't turn as tight at my board and tend to speed up and cross my line. I had a friend of mine ride up on my board by accident, I didnt even know he was on me(nearly humping me haha) as I kept on riding, I switched edges and popped him into the air and thats when I felt and heard him we both skidded down the run under the chair. Lots of hooting for that one. I am fortunate that I ride at areas that aren't crowded. I usually wait but sometimes I will sneak in a few lines then skid to a stop and let people by. Like everyone said whether you are downhill or yielding, the fact is, I am 240 lbs dry and probably 270 with my patrol gear on and boots and board. If someone hits me they will probably get hurt. If I hit someone, They will feel like they got hit by a truck.

LOL, I just remembered one time I was showing off in front of a friend and tried to do a layout carve in front of him. My board lost it's edge while I was laying it out and it hit him in the legs. He did 2 flips in the air before he hit the ground. I was so appologetic and he was brushing it off but I am sure he was pretty sore and didnt tell me (the kind of guy he is)

[bumpyride]

1. Always stay in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way.

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.

Let's look at the code.

1. Always stay in control. If you hit someone-you're not in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way. If you're warping across the slope and a skier crosses your plane and you hit his hind quarters who has the right of way?

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look up hill and yield. If you're warping across the slope and you're technically going up hill till the transition and you hit a skier you've failed at "starting downhill"

Bummpy ride- from my experience as an ex ski patroler your take on the skiers code is all wrong. Both parties in a collision are not always at fault; the person in motion as the uphill rider is at fault. It is their responsibility to look ahead over the whole run below them and adjust their riding to allow them to avoid anything unexpected and anyone's unexpected movement's- period.

Your comments on #4 are also off base. "When starting downhill" refers to someone in a stationary position not to someone in motion; and "......or merging, look uphill and yield." refers to a merging trail situation not to a rider in motion making turns on the same slope.

Me

I think your points about my being wrong might be up for interpretation in a court when the sharks are representing their clients. Read through the entire thread and look at the differences in opinions on what constitutes the idea of the uphill skier, then look at #4 again and tell me where it says "Starting from a dead stop when starting down hill." I don't see any codicil where it says starting from a dead stop or what is an uphill skier. This would be where "LAWYERSPEAK" would start to be a factor, and remember it's not who's right, it's who has the best lawyer.

This thread is not intended to do anything other than have people think about what you're doing and not who's right.

Quote Glynn

It is the person above who has the ability to see the slope below them ( and should have the understanding that those below them can not see them) and that is why they have the responsibility to avoid any and all riders below them no matter what those people do!

Me.

You know sometimes people just don't see. I would think it wouldn't hurt any less being hit by someone who didn't see you or anticipate your cross run turn. Again this thread is not intended to do anything other than have people think.

Quote Glynn

There are just way too many people on the slopes that do not understand this simple rule or ignor it and refuse to ride with caution and courtesy and instead force things thru time after time. The worst offenders are the straightlinners! I see it every day and if I were still on patrol there would be a lot fewer of them on the mountain.

Me.

This is my point precisely. People don't understand or ignore or don't see. Watch out for them.

Quote Glynn

On the other hand to carve on and through a crowded slope is irresponsible. It sounds like most of us are of the wait and carve types and ride with caution and courtesy but we can't look over our shoulders evry turn!

Me.

Yes we can be courteous and cautious, but if we don't look at every opportunity we run the risk. We have to make our choices and suffer the consequences whether we are right or wrong.

Again I wouldn't like this thread to deteriorate into arguing what's right and wrong point by point. It's the timbre of the thread that is important. I encourage everyone to carefully reread the whole thread and see what everybody thinks and how many different interpretations there are and just be overly careful. This thread was made to get a wider perspective on how we ride, and how we can ride more safely.

[Guest 2board]

Accident's suck, anything you can do to avoid them makes the mountain a safer place.........end of story....

I'd rather have a beer at the end of the day at the bar after riding and say to my buddy "Yeah, it was a good day, though holding up to let the idiots go by got kind of old" than drink a beer on the couch with my leg a cast posting on bomber about how I was in an accident that wasn't my fault.....

[bumpyride]

Accident's suck, anything you can do to avoid them makes the mountain a safer place.........end of story....

I'd rather have a beer at the end of the day at the bar after riding and say to my buddy "Yeah, it was a good day, though holding up to let the idiots go by got kind of old" than drink a beer on the couch with my leg a cast posting on bomber about how I was in an accident that wasn't my fault.

EXACTLY!

[philfell]

When did the idea get introduce here that each person is responsible for every collision???

I don't think that bumpy ride was saying that at all. He is just trying to get people out of the mindset that "I'm the downhill person, I can do whatever I want and if I get hit it's could never be MY fault". And I was just pointing out things I see where I would say the downhill skier is totally at fault and the uphill skier could have done very little to avoid the collision.

[David Glynn]

Bummpyride. Can't get the smiles to work but with the risk of sounding offensive I've got to say: You can take all your lawyer crap and put it where all the other lawyer crap should go right next to the devil's advocate crap and.................. But least you think I'm ragging on you on a personal level I want to assure you that I'm not. I want to thank you, for this is a really good thread and thanks again for getting it out there.

My feelings are that we all should ride and ski with caution and respect for everyone that is up there sharing such a wonderfull thing as the snow/gravity experience and not pin everything on the "CODE". Ride for survival both yours and their's.

But your comments from a hypothetical lawyers point of view do nothing but confuse the real plain and simple rules in the skiers code. Really if you can't understand them or know others that don't please talk to a patrol person and have them explain them till you are clear on them.

To ride thinking you are the downhill rider and everyone else has to watchout for you on the run that you have claimed as your own is just plain stupid and any rider that thinks that way is irresponsible but someone who doesn't know or doesn't understand or ignores the code is a true menace and shouldn't be on the hill.

Again if you hit someone from behind it is your fault whether they cut you off by traversing or by a deep heelside carve. The uphill rider has the responsibility to avoid those below them period. So, as the uphill rider, slow down and give others room. Come to a stop if you have to, what's so wrong with that? Set a good example. Maybe if people understood the code they would understand how to ride.

[bumpyride]

David,

Figured I should write you back and note where opinions may diverge. Anything that helps bring out a discussion that makes it safer for everyone is a plus. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but feel it's important to point out that others may, depending on the situation.

Glynn

Bummpyride. Can't get the smiles to work but with the risk of sounding offensive I've got to say: You can take all your lawyer crap and put it where all the other lawyer crap should go right next to the devil's advocate crap and..................

Me.

I can't remember who signs off with "Strangling the last lawyer with the entrails of the last priest", but cudo's to him, because with lawyers still around, we may have to face some very unpleasant ramifications if we are involved in a collision. Actually all the lawyer crap is just what a person would have to face if they found themselves even "in the right", and being sued. I understand the code, but lawyers can really twist any situation, just ask Gonzales the Attorney General. The code is just too vague to have it address every situation, as has been evidenced by many of the comments in the thread. As we all know lawyers are beholden only to their clients whether they're right or wrong.

Glynn

Again if you hit someone from behind it is your fault whether they cut you off by traversing or by a deep heelside carve. The uphill rider has the responsibility to avoid those below them period.

Me,

If you were being sued, I can just imagine the charts, graphs, measurements, biased eye witnesses, and claymation figures on a snowboard that the plaintiffs attorney would parade out. Then here comes the parapalegic in the wheel chair, well anyway you can get the picture.

Glynn

So, as the uphill rider, slow down and give others room. Come to a stop if you have to, what's so wrong with that? Set a good example. Maybe if people understood the code they would understand how to ride.

Me

This is dead on. The problem is people don't understand.

Glynn

My feelings are that we all should ride and ski with caution and respect for everyone that is up there sharing such a wonderfull thing as the snow/gravity experience and not pin everything on the "CODE". Ride for survival both yours and their's.

Me

Dead on! This is one of the motives for the thread.

Me,

Lastly, no offense taken. This kind of discourse is good for making people more aware of their own actions.

Well now really lastly. I just don't want to see anyone needlessly hurt, not that anyone needs to get hurt, but you can see how words can be twisted.

PS. Bumpyride has only 1 m in it. Otherwise people might think that I'm riding my ass (bumm) all the way down the hill.

[John E]

If you want to avoid collisions, expect those on the slope ahead of you to act erracticly. If you want to avoid collisions, don't act erraticly. Anytime one acts erraticly on the slopes or off, they take the risk of getting hurt, hurting others, getting killed or killing others.