Erratic behavior

[bumpyride]

As the anomaly on the slopes, shouldn't the carver be at the very least somewhat responsible for many of the collisions that take place (notice I didn't say all) I do believe that if you're driving on a 5 lane highway and people normally change one lane at a time, anyone that would decide to change 5 lanes would freak out most drivers behind them. Let's face it, when going downhill at a fairly robust speed and then driving into a full carve the downhill speed decreases inversely to the steepness of the angle across the fall line, and throws everyone uphill off.

Some skiers ski fast and in control, and don't expect to have someone sideswipe them on the slope. In cases it's almost like merging from an arterial and not looking in your side view mirror, or turning to look over your shoulder. In situations like that whose fault is it? We're the ones that are disrupting the flow, the normal traffic pattern is going along just like normal and some low flying UFO comes along and is threatening to perform surgery on some poor unsuspecting earthling.

So when I read about someone who's in the middle of a deep carve and all of a sudden hit, I have to think that often there is some degree of culpablility simply because they're out of the norm that is expected, and perhaps they should be not as oblivious to the obvious--we're pretty weird.

[Chris Houghton]

Obviously you've not seen skiiers carving on slalom skis - the effect is the same. Maybe the resort should mark "lanes" on the hill, and we'll start signaling? Personally I like things the way they are. You could be in the right and still get hurt, so it makes sense to exercise caution.

[Chuck]

The Carving Snowboarder is not the anomaly on the slope. I race in a local race program that was developed by skiers. I ride with them several weeks during the season. They have pretty much similar lines to what a carving snowboarder has. In fact three of the boarders I race with also ski race because the newer ski's give them the motion and sensations of a carving on a board. After all the shaped ski's were developed to carve a TURN not straight line the runs.

I believe the issue would be solved if people would just be more aware of the code and ski or board by it, and not think they are the only ones on the hill. Another thing, why should I be responsible for what someone else does? Shouldn't you be responsible for your own actions?

[Jack M]

You really need to read the skier's and rider's responsibility code.

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/know_the_code.asp

The downhill person is the downhill person. Period.

[jtslalom]

I do believe that if you're driving on a 5 lane highway and people normally change one lane at a time, anyone that would decide to change 5 lanes would freak out most drivers behind them.

Bad analogy bumpyride, just a plain and simple bad analogy. I understand your concern with carvers unexpectantly coming across the fall line but it is no where near the same as some one switching across 5 lanes of traffic.

[pebu]

crossing the fall line without looking would probably be analagous to switching lanes without looking, but switching lanes while looking and then having somebody rear-end you because they were going 90 in a 45 zone... They weren't there when you looked to change lanes, so you just changed lanes... That would be analagous to getting nailed by a straightliner.

[John E]

Regardless of what I am sliding down the mountain on (board, skis, etc.), I know that if I collide with someone below me, it is my fault. I have been skiing, boarding for 40 years and I have never collided with someone else on the slopes. This was made clear to me as a kid and I've never forgotten it. It's just like driving. If you hit someone from behind, it is your fault.

That being said, yes, I still try to ride in a predictable manner. I always check the slope above before starting out to ensure that I'm not going to "pull out" in front of someone else. Though I often take the entire slope, I try to avoid making unpredictable turns.

Reading the Skier's Responsibility Code reminds me that many on the slopes have never read, don't understand or don't care about the rules of the slopes.

[philfell]

I think bumpy ride does have a good point. I've seen many carvers create lines and carve that skis just don't do. How many ski race team train to carve uphill to bleed off speed? That is common advice here.

Jack, yes the downhill skier has the right of way, but if you are carving directly accross the fall line you new "downhill" is changed in the relationship to your carve. If a skier is expected to see you coming at them from 90 degrees to the side, so should you while carving. People use that downhill skier cop-out to ignore the fact that they were NOT paying attention to the people around them. Of course this is not always the case, like everything not everything is black and white.

[John E]

I almost always try to glance uphill on each turn - especially on my toeside. As with auto accidents, it usually takes 2 people not paying attention to cause an accident.

[Neil Gendzwill]

I'm with Phil and bumpy on this one. Technically, the downhill skier has the right of way. As my Dad says with driving - "yeah, you're right - dead right". Doesn't do much good to bitch about who was right after the collision has happened and someone is hurt. Make sure the slope is clear, be aware of people behind you, then throw your cross-the-hill screamers. If it's crowded, pick a lane and switch to shorter, less complete turns.

[Guest jrsp12]

When I was a instructor at Brighton in Utah one of the first things I taught beginners was to be aware of your surroundings on the hill. Too many riders (boarders & skiers) seem too think they own the mountain. As the responsibitly code says downhill rider always has the right of way. But just because you have the right of way being the donwhill rider doesn't mean you can't be courtious to others who may not see you or realize how "we" (carvers) use the hill.

We are all out there to have a good time and if you have to pull out of a carve a little early in order to save yourself from decapitating a six year old straight lining the run (Its happened to everyone) just let it go.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jack M]

bumpyride said the carver bears some responsibility for being hit from behind.

That's just wrong.

Sure, it's smart to look uphill if you think there's traffic. And I usually just stop and wait if a big bubble of people descends upon me. Or I don't start down a hill until there's a lull in the crowd. But no matter what, it's not your fault if you get hit from above.

[timinor]

Is this discussion about "defensive" riding or who creates the problem?

The skier's code states that it is the responcibility of the rider/skier uphill. I respect that rule while riding and when I catch up to slower people, I pull off to the side and wait or slide slip past them...why can't a skier do that?

Friday, I came up on a 4 yr old making slow turns across 2 or 3 lanes. His father was 5 yards uphill of him running interference (as he should do). I saw this and pull off to the side about 30 yards above them (long before I had come into their awareness). I look up the hill and see a stong intermediate skier going faster than his ability. He is turning across one lane so he is not a total bomber but I start wincing at what is about to happen because a continuation of the rythm of his turns predicts a close call. He did not alter his line one inch and flew by the 4 yr old and missed him by 10 ft. Heaven forbid that his run should be interupted by the erratic behavior below him.

If the 4 yr old had been hit, should I have arrived on the scene and said, "I saw the whole thing and you weren't looking up the hill, Kid."

But in all fairness, I think this thread is about the concept of "self-preservasion" and "defensive" riding. Well, of course, we should all practice that and always try to be aware of what or who is around us. Winning the argument of whose fault it was is small consolation if you are lying in the snow with broken bones.

But, as for me, I continue to practice the Skier's Code and try to be a good citizen on the slopes.

[Zone]

The problem is that there are not enough people cutting across the hill "erratically". If everyone were hardbooters, the occasional skiers would be the "erratic" ones.

[Chuck]

The problem with this for me, is that Bumpy said " shouldn't the carver be at the very least somewhat responsible for many of the collisions that take place ".

We have a generally accepted rule regarding culpability. If you take this view you are minimizing the culpability of the uphill skier or boarder, and that is one "slippery slope"! I agree with Jack, there are rules in place that are pretty concise...

[Steve Dold]

Scott Firestone has pretty good write-up about this here. I think he did a good job and it makes a lot of sense. Go Scott.

I think Bumpyride has a very good point. Technically we have the right of way for now, BUT if we don't ride like we have some of the responsibility, we could see rule number 8 appear that will read "Always look uphill before making a sudden, unexpected maneuver, and yield to others". To a skier trying to pass, each one of our turns is a sudden, unexpected maneuver.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Seems that if the carving movement grows as quicky as it seems poised to do,we may be on the way to being corralled into carving parks like the terrain park guys are now;not entirely a bad thing as it could result in better care taken of the particilar slopes being used,but there would likely be fewer terrain and run choices.Resort risk management personel tend toward reaction rather than proaction but terrain parks and race/training arenas are mostlyproactive steps when it comes to managing risk on the slopes.Much as we might hate that to happen,recent history shows that it is a distinct possibility in the future unless we are ,as a group, practicing courtesy and safety to higher standards than the general skiing/riding public by our own choice; as opposed to being made to ride in limited areas as a reaction to complaints lodged against us, however unfounded they may be.

[bumpyride]

The Carving Snowboarder is not the anomaly on the slope. I race in a local race program that was developed by skiers. I ride with them several weeks during the season. They have pretty much similar lines to what a carving snowboarder has. In fact three of the boarders I race with also ski race because the newer ski's give them the motion and sensations of a carving on a board.

Me: I just spent a week at Whistler. I saw 2 guys on plates aside from myself and neither one was doing hard carves, and I was looking for them. Somehow I think that may qualify as an anomaly even factoring in the skiers that are doing hard carves, of which I saw none. At my local area, I normally board all day, and I'm lucky if I see 1 set of plates.

Jack M.

You really need to read the skier's and rider's responsibility code.

http://www.nsaa.org/nsaa/safety/know_the_code.asp

Me: The skiers responsibility code is not often read nor always followed. The point is we're doing something that throws a lot of people off, and we're doing things that people don't even see. So if the code is adhered to, why are so many people getting clocked. I would guess it's not be totally adhered to and we know it. We know it(yes I repeated that). So if we know it and don't act accordingly are we somewhat at fault. I think that we're just adding to the mix, by doing the unexpected.

jtslalom

Bad analogy bumpyride, just a plain and simple bad analogy. I understand your concern with carvers unexpectantly coming across the fall line but it is no where near the same as some one switching across 5 lanes of traffic.

Me: Let's see. 5 lanes of traffic are about 13 feet or so wide each. (That would be 65 feet, plus the shoulders that add another 26 feet or so. That's just about the width of a perfect carving groomer.) Each person in his or her car is probably focused on what's in front of them and probably to the side in each adjacent lane. That's a bit to think about as you're driving. Now if you're driving and it isn't very busy, you're probably not as intent as when the traffic is dense, and you're probably enjoying the drive. So as a skier is going down a slope they are probably focusing on just a little wider area than a driver, and concentrating on what they are doing and WHAM!.

oldacura

Regardless of what I am sliding down the mountain on (board, skis, etc.), I know that if I collide with someone below me, it is my fault. I have been skiing, boarding for 40 years and I have never collided with someone else on the slopes. This was made clear to me as a kid and I've never forgotten it. It's just like driving. If you hit someone from behind, it is your fault.

Me: Cudos to oldacura. 40 years and never a hit, and why? Because he knows to look and be careful of other people. If he hadn't been as careful, how many times might he have hit someone. I like boarding with people like this that are aware that their actions may be responsible for an accident. In a perfect world we wouldn't have to look, but as we look at our President we know it's not a perfect world.

jrsp12

When I was a instructor at Brighton in Utah one of the first things I taught beginners was to be aware of your surroundings on the hill. Too many riders (boarders & skiers) seem too think they own the mountain. As the responsibitly code says downhill rider always has the right of way. But just because you have the right of way being the donwhill rider doesn't mean you can't be courtious to others who may not see you or realize how "we" (carvers) use the hill.

Me: My point exactly.

Jack M

bumpyride said the carver bears some responsibility for being hit from behind.

That's just wrong.

Me: Here's the big disagreement. If a person knowingly does something that is diametrically opposed to what the norm is, he should know that it may cause a serious problem. I really believe that anyone that enters a situation with the knowledge that he may do something that endangers others (whether they are aware of the code or not) must, and I repeat must take actions above and beyond that are designed to limit everyone's exposure. It used to be said that a driver involved in an accident is 10% responsible for just being on the road, and we're switching several lanes at a time.

timinor

Is this discussion about "defensive" riding or who creates the problem?

The skier's code states that it is the responcibility of the rider/skier uphill. I respect that rule while riding and when I catch up to slower people, I pull off to the side and wait or slide slip past them...why can't a skier do that?

Me: Simply because they don't. Let's face it, there's a lot of morons in the world, and not to even mention those that don't know or those that don't see. If you want to save your own butt, you must take preventative actions.

The idea here is to make you think as you're in another person shoes (boots to be exact). What do you expect to happen and what do you not expect to happen and take measures that insure that neither one leads into anyone getting hurt. If that means because you're doing something many don't expect you to do, you have to be proactive and take the measures necessary because you're adding risk to the mix.

[philfell]

Jack it's not black and white when dealing with the way people carve here. In all reality one could argue that often the snowboarder is at fault by running into the straightliner. The guy is going straight down the hill and some guy comes out from 90 degrees to the side and takes him out. In this case neither is the downhill person. I have seen collisions on the hill where the downhill person got hit and it WAS the downhill persons fault.

I once saw Billy Bordy hit a guy twice in one turn. Billy was carving accross the hill and at the top of his toeside he hit a guy making turns next to him. Yeah when Billy started his turn he was downhill of the person next to him, but watching it all unfold it was clearly Billys fault. Both riders stayed on their feet, only the boards touched. Billy continued to make a 180 degree toeside carve and hit the same person at the bottom of the turn. Again since Billy had more speed he passed the guy in mid-turn, came under the guy and got hit. He was downhill on the second impact. Billy got super pissed, calling out the responsibility code and he was the downhill person, but everyone who was witness knew Billy was at fault.

Sorry to use you as an example Bordy, but it was super funny to watch and fits this conversation well.

If a person is flying 90 degrees to the fall line, it should be treated as if he is merging with the trail, and should be aware of people up hill.

[Guest Bamboo_Girl]

I dunno about this 'doing something that isn't normal' business. I mean I look at every person downhill from me individually and try to notice what that specific person is doing. As opposed to thinking every skier/boarder rides the same way, because they don't. Some skiers make numerous, short, slow turns, others bomb runs. Some riders make really short, fast turns, others traverse, while some just ride the same edge (falling leaf) all the way down. Certain riders/boarders are teaching another person, etc. Meanwhile, others are just apt to fall at any minute.

I just don't say well, all skiers rider like this and all boarders ride like that, so I'm just not gonna assume it. I give people lots and lots of room when they are downhill from me. For me, it is no fun when someone buzzes past me at some insane speed with no warning. Not doing that to others is the least I can do when I'm uphill/passing them.

To me, if you are uphill,, you need to at least watch the people below you and give them lots of room.

There is enough space for everyone.

[bumpyride]

1. Always stay in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way.

3. Stop in a safe place for you and others.

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look uphill and yield.

5. Use devices to help prevent runaway equipment.

6. Observe signs and warnings, and keep off closed trails.

7. Know how to use the lifts safely.

Let's look at the code.

1. Always stay in control. If you hit someone-you're not in control.

2. People ahead of you have the right of way. If you're warping across the slope and a skier crosses your plane and you hit his hind quarters who has the right of way?

4. Whenever starting downhill or merging, look up hill and yield. If you're warping across the slope and you're technically going up hill till the transition and you hit a skier you've failed at "starting downhill"

Here's the deal. We're adding to the confusion and we know it. If we don't take actions to deal with it we're culpable. Those of you that fall back on the responsiblity code (in some cases) may in fact find that you are in fault because of that same code. Can anyone say "LAWYERSPEAK".

You'll have to forgive me, but when people try to justify their actions "by the rules", I find have have little tolerance, especially when they know their actions may cause harm.

7 year old little girl dressed in pink doing pizzas down the hill and suddenly catches an edge and straightlines at the edge of the trail just as you're going into transition. She's 66 lbs and cute as a button. You're 210 and decrepit wearing a helmet and body armor. She's now not so cute and the pizzas are now her brains on the oak tree 15 feet off the run. You get to say "Skiers Responsibility Code" and guess what-you could be wrong. How do you feel.

BOARD SAFE, BOARD AWARE OF EVERYTHING.

[cail]

i agree with Bamboo Girl. if i do pass someone.. i'll side slip past them giving them enough room. usually if it's a group of people i'll wait for a little while to give them some room before i head down... especially on narrow runs

[philfell]

If you side slip past people and wait for big groups to go ahead of you, how long does it take for you to make a single run?

[cail]

depends. where i go usually the runs are narrow..so it's only possible to slip past if it's 1 or 2 people. if it's a group (ahead of me) i have to wait until they all stop (which they almost always do), or til they get to a wider section. either way it's frustrating

if i see a group behind me i'll stay ahead of them... the worst is waiting for a window and just when you're about to go ONE person shows up and just goes right by all the while just looking at you like you're an alien.

[Guest needanswer]

phil has the perfect analogy and anecdote.

The multi lane highway analogy is not appropriate because it still conveys the idea of one direction thus retaining the concept of uphill/downhill skier.

If you carve across the hill, it becomes a 4 way intersection.

If you carve uphill, then it's going against traffic.

If you're logical, then you can see the traditional concept of uphill/downhill skier , does not apply. perhaps new rules should be written.

however, it does seem like the person going across is merging and should watch out for uphill.

Jack it's not black and white when dealing with the way people carve here. In all reality one could argue that often the snowboarder is at fault by running into the straightliner. The guy is going straight down the hill and some guy comes out from 90 degrees to the side and takes him out. In this case neither is the downhill person. I have seen collisions on the hill where the downhill person got hit and it WAS the downhill persons fault.

I once saw Billy Bordy hit a guy twice in one turn. Billy was carving accross the hill and at the top of his toeside he hit a guy making turns next to him. Yeah when Billy started his turn he was downhill of the person next to him, but watching it all unfold it was clearly Billys fault. Both riders stayed on their feet, only the boards touched. Billy continued to make a 180 degree toeside carve and hit the same person at the bottom of the turn. Again since Billy had more speed he passed the guy in mid-turn, came under the guy and got hit. He was downhill on the second impact. Billy got super pissed, calling out the responsibility code and he was the downhill person, but everyone who was witness knew Billy was at fault.

Sorry to use you as an example Bordy, but it was super funny to watch and fits this conversation well.

If a person is flying 90 degrees to the fall line, it should be treated as if he is merging with the trail, and should be aware of people up hill.