Have you gone to steeper slopes too soon?

[SWriverstone]

Woohoo! I'm riding again! After a great day of carving at MAC Tracks (thanks to Phil and Ski Roundtop), I've been back to Whitetail and found pretty good conditions. So with my sudden increase in carving comes an associated desire to start posting on BOL again, LOL. :)

So to the discussion at hand...

I've noticed something obvious in my carving over the last couple years: when I carve green slopes (and less-steep blue slopes) my technique is far better, because I'm able to relax and focus on my technique.

But when I get on steeper blues, my technique goes to hell because I'm too uptight about controlling my speed and doing a lot more skidding, scarved turns, etc.

In a recent conversation with someone far better than I, this person suggested that too many people run to the steeper slopes before their technique is truly ready for it...and as a result, bad technique gets reinforced.

None of us wants to be perpetually stuck on the bunny slopes...but I know I'm guilty of flailing down steeper slopes more often than I should—because I know I can get down 'em (even if not terribly gracefully).

So I'm curious to know: how many of you other carvers think you could stand to spend more time on the greens just focusing on technique?

At our local resort (Whitetail) there is a perfect green slope (Snow Park) that is really more like a super-easy blue. Last night I did two runs on this one...then two runs on a steep blue, then back to the green for two runs. And on every run down the green, I was more relaxed, carved cleaner trenches, and got higher edge angles than any of my runs down the blue.

So I've decided to spend most of the rest of this season on that green slope, just concentrating on good technique and higher edge angles. My hope is that eventually, this technique will naturally carry over to the steeper slopes...or will it?

I'm reminded of something Jon Lugbill (the greatest whitewater slalom racer in history) once said to me during a training session: "There are certain techniques for going slow, and other techniques for going fast—you need to learn the ones for going fast."

Would you say this is true of carving as well?

Scott

EDIT: An afterthought...I wonder why so many people are obsessed with the steeper slopes? Because I'll tell you right now, on a wide slope that's only moderately steep (like an easy blue) if you use good technique you can build up scorchin' speed—across the slope as well as downhill. I know I've gone just as fast on the easy blue as I see people going on steep blues (maybe even faster). So why do people like steeper slopes? Just because they force you to turn harder and more frequently? I prefer w-i-d-e, l-o-n-g turns at high speeds that cover a huge amount of terrain...and you don't need a steep slope for that! :)

[Buell]

SW,

I think you have covered some great thoughts in your post. The speed that one will build up pure carving compared to skidding is amazing!

It requires a lot of discipline and patience to ride the slopes that one can improve on as a carver. Those that will really make you focus on your riding, but that you can still pure carve down. Even if this is the easiest green on the mountain for a while. Once I started carving, the whole mountain looked a lot steeper (except on a powder day )!

Buell

[Derf]

EDIT: An afterthought...I wonder why so many people are obsessed with the steeper slopes? Because I'll tell you right now, on a wide slope that's only moderately steep (like an easy blue) if you use good technique you can build up scorchin' speed—across the slope as well as downhill. I know I've gone just as fast on the easy blue as I see people going on steep blues (maybe even faster). So why do people like steeper slopes? Just because they force you to turn harder and more frequently? I prefer w-i-d-e, l-o-n-g turns at high speeds that cover a huge amount of terrain...and you don't need a steep slope for that! :)

I ride moderately steep slopes even if Ihave trouble for several reasons:

- Less people (especially less beginners who are unpredictable and fall easlily)

- It's the only way to get the "feel" of a steeper slope, because in my opinion, you may be excellent in a green, but when you come to a blue, everything goes to hell because the "feel" is not the same.

- More blue than green runs generally

[Allee]

Welcome back Scott. Hopefully Holly is doing well...

I have this same problem, and it's totally a mental thing for me. I sometimes think the worst thing I can do is look at the blue square or the black diamond at the start of the run, because you get it into your head that somehow this will be harder than the last run you did, so you won't be able to carve it. I can be having a great day and then totally turn to custard down a black, just because I have a total brain freak.

I attack it from the point of view of part of the run at a time. I get on to the run, link a few good carves, and then if it gets too narrow, or if I'm going too fast, I'll correct and then set up again. And repeat until you get it right. As you do so, remember what it felt like - how hard you had to drive into the turn, what felt good, what didn't.

I might not be carving perfectly all the time, but if I'm getting toward most of the time, I'm happy!

[pebu]

I actually enjoy myself more on the blues and steep greens. (I guess it doesn't help that I vaulted off of my head once on a black...)

It's a pity since the skiers I go with are pretty good and can handle the blacks. I can also handle the blacks on my soft setup (skidding or carving). But for layin down and cuttin up there is nothing wrong with enjoying a blue run. Just remember though, if you don't push yourself a little you'll never get better.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

I have been carving since 95 and i have to say that blue are way too boring for me now. I only carve blacks. But as i am remember correctly i was starting on moderate blues. You need some speed to feel it. A lot of beginner greens are too flat. IMHO

[Phil]

So I'm curious to know: how many of you other carvers think you could stand to spend more time on the greens just focusing on technique?

I believe that anyone - even experts could benefit from this.

So I've decided to spend most of the rest of this season on that green slope, just concentrating on good technique and higher edge angles. My hope is that eventually, this technique will naturally carry over to the steeper slopes...or will it?

I think that this will really help you. I think that you need to get used to doing nothing but carving. It needs to become second nature to you. At that point, you will be able to take it to the blues. And yes, this IS an insider's POV.

I'm reminded of something Jon Lugbill (the greatest whitewater slalom racer in history) once said to me during a training session: "There are certain techniques for going slow, and other techniques for going fast—you need to learn the ones for going fast."

Would you say this is true of carving as well?

Yes, but have you gone fast yet? I'm not trying to call you out by any means, but there is a whole other world of fast that awaits you once you master the carve.

EDIT: An afterthought...I wonder why so many people are obsessed with the steeper slopes? Because I'll tell you right now, on a wide slope that's only moderately steep (like an easy blue) if you use good technique you can build up scorchin' speed—across the slope as well as downhill. I know I've gone just as fast on the easy blue as I see people going on steep blues (maybe even faster). So why do people like steeper slopes? Just because they force you to turn harder and more frequently? I prefer w-i-d-e, l-o-n-g turns at high speeds that cover a huge amount of terrain...and you don't need a steep slope for that! :)

Someday, you will experience the feeling of pulling serious g's that bend the heck out of your board and accelerate you in a way that you did not know was possible. At that point, you may change your mind and decide that steep and narrow with tight turns (going faster than you did with the big turns on green) is one of the ultimate ways to ride. Have you seen Upper Ramrod? That is my fav around here.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Someday, you will experience the feeling of pulling serious g's that bend the heck out of your board and accelerate you in a way that you did not know was possible. At that point, you may change your mind and decide that steep and narrow with tight turns (going faster than you did with the big turns on green) is one of the ultimate ways to ride. Have you seen Upper Ramrod? That is my fav around here.

nicely said i am with you 100% where is Upper Ramrod?

[Phil]

Upper Ramrod is a nice black that is narrow enough to make it interesting on a GS board. It is at Ski Roundtop where MAC Tracks was held on Friday (as the O.P. noted).

[todd]

I agree with most of the above. For me the biggest thing was getting my body, mind and muscles used to resisting and holding some awesome G-forces in each turn.

When you get to one of those steeper hills, try linking 2 to 3 turns only, and on that final just lay it all the way over and rip it all the way back up the hill. Keep forcing all your muscles to rail that board, don't give in to the Gs.

[Blackbird]

I wouldn't stress out too much..... I quite like rocketing down a good blue run...

Funny enough the black runs here are peppered with beginners snow plowing down... suppose they think after a lesson or two they are experts...

At my Fav mountain they have a easy green run that almost nobody uses.. it's long and the grooming is perfect.... only I gotta bomb it for a good 1/3 of the way down to get the speed out of it....before I start leaving my trenches!

But after a while it gets too much

You have to push your limits or you'll never improve.. get out of your comfort zone.... and relax....

Visualise before your run down... remember your technique, and just relax... people tense up and forget the basic skills like angulation.. panic and start to skid to control speed...

I used to be the same....

It's as The Good Book (Almanac) states.... And to quote...

• Before you reach the advanced level of carving, you will have four breakthroughs.
  
• But one of those breakthroughs will be a false epiphany.
  
• By the time you reach the third breakthrough, you will have revised every one of your long-held beliefs on technique.
  
• Just when you think you have grasped a unified, canonical truth of carving, you will realize it doesn't exist. Only then can you achieve true mastery.
  

Just think what that false epiphany might be.......

[Blackbird]

Very nicely said....... I agree 100%

[FTA2R]

Scott,

good point. i'd rather master a slightly easier run than go on a harder run with ****ty technique- that's just me being anal ,though.

point in case. i could spend a whole day on Minuteman at SRT. 1/2 - 3/4 of it is perfect for carving. the top part is at least a moderate steep that for me, is still challenging to really carve, especially if it's bumpy, and i've seen some bumps worthy of being called moguls on there. then you have the part after that top part but before it gets really wide- this part i've found is frequently bumpy. i think it's better than your green/blue at tail b/c it's less newbs on there and quicker lift (of course SRT is also farther).

try staying to the right of your tail run and let me know how that goes. also, try the run to the left of limelight at 'tail- seems not many are on it!

and the whole "speed perception" thing- that's a whole nother can of worms. i think a lot of us think we're going faster than we are- b/c we're just on 1 edge (vs. base)- and frequently high on edge, so it feels less stable and perhaps faster / scarier.

[Phil]

and the whole "speed perception" thing- that's a whole nother can of worms. i think a lot of us think we're going faster than we are- b/c we're just on 1 edge (vs. base)- and frequently high on edge, so it feels less stable and perhaps faster / scarier.

I did a video clinic yesterday. One of the guys who took the clinic said "when I am on the snow, I feel like I am going so fast, yet when I look at the video, you guys (the rest of the people in the clinic) are going twice as fast as I am." Those guys were all carving well, the guy I am quoting was not. When one learns to carve well, edging becomes as much about speed maintenance as it once was about speed control. If you have a good GS carver and/or racer, they can make GS turns down a slope and pretty much keep up with the unibombers. At that point, you realize that you are going much faster than them in order to be making big turns and covering all of that ground yet still keeping up with them while they go straight down.

You brought up Minuteman. That is a great example. Minuteman is a great cruising/carving slope. I don't know many who don't like it. I do, however, know plenty of people who cannot stay on it very long because you just cannot generate a lot of speed on it. Go one over, say to Exhibition, and there a whole other world of speed to be had. (Sorry, I have never been to WT, so I cannot comment on their slopes)

[D-Sub]

always wondered if I go fast at all.

[RJ-PS]

I agree, you can get serious speed out of some greens, but most won't allow you enough speed to get perpindicular with your board.

When you are really rocking, the G's you can pull in turns are sweet candy. Nothing like the feeling of locked in rollercoaster riding to give you a case of perma-grin.

[AaronG]

always wondered if I go fast at all.

I could probably tell you if you carve fast or slow if you would ever show up the mtn!! New snow, now is the time to go. Meet Bullwings and I there on Thursday.

BE THERE OR BE SQU... A FLAKE!!!

Don't go out the night before!!

[AK in PA]

When the slopes are nicely groomed, I love the harder blues and blacks. Roundtop's Susquehanna, with it's turns and pitch changes is a favorite. The speed and G's feel incredible. But once they get choppy, I have too rough a time carving across the fall line as that path takes you across the peaks and valleys. (I've seen guys at Roundtop carving choppy steeps very well though.) My biggest problem with riding the faster slopes, though, is that my thighs get burned out quickly. (Unfortunately, I don't ride that much.) And thigh fatigue turns my riding to crap.

I was at Roundtop on Sunday and spent most of it carving Fife & Drum, even though Susquehanna was in great shape and Minuteman was just moderately choppy. That little hill can still be carved like mad, but didn't wear my legs out like Susquehanna was starting to.

Glad to hear there are more hardbooters at Roundtop. The constant barrage of questions in the lift line, from skiiers and snowboarders alike, had me starting to wonder if alpine had faded from existance. I was astonished at how many people said they had never seen anything like that. (Oxygen GS board with TD2s and UPZs.) I remember 13 or 14 years ago, there were always a good number of hardbooters carving the hill.

[SWriverstone]

Great responses from everyone! (Glad I posted something after a year! LOL)

Saying this is dangerous because it sounds as if I'm trying to make excuses for not improving—not so! :) It seems to me that there's an assumption that carving is all about small, fast turns—jinking back-and-forth rapidly from edge-to-edge like a dancer. In this case, I totally see why people prefer steeper, more narrow slopes.

I actually like the sustained feeling of being on an edge for a l—o—n—g time before changing to the other edge...and the fact is you simply can't do this on most steep, narrow blacks in the east. In other words, for me, it's about "the turn" (singular) versus "the turns" (plural). Does that make sense? (I'm sure everyone's rolling their eyes, LOL.)

I dream of going somewhere (I think places like this exist?) where the slope is almost as wide as it is long! :) Where you can go fast...but there's about 20 seconds between each turn, as opposed to 3 seconds between each turn.

I've been a whitewater kayaker for years, and there's a perfect analogy there: what a lot of carvers seem to prefer is the whitewater equivalent of a steep, tiny creek, choked with boulders and tight sluices and drops. Though I'm an expert paddler, I avoid those runs 'cause they're just not as fun for me as BIG WATER—rivers that are 50 yards wide with powerful waves that are 10 feet wide and 6 feet tall (bigger than your boat!).

I dunno, I'm rambling (sorry)...but I just think there are many different styles of carving (and slopes to carve on)...and there seems to be an assumption that the better you get, the steeper/gnarlier/twistier you want the slopes...and in my case anyway, it ain't so! :)

Scott

[Zone]

Here's the Mecca for fast looong turns:

http://carving.grewu.org/gallery/ecsIV/ecs0502/dsc_4789.htm

[pebu]

Theres a catch 22 here. In order to make long wide turns you need the wide hills that are found on the green and blues, but to stay lain over for extended periods you need the steeps for some speed.

[SWriverstone]

Oh man! Where is that place drzone? My life's goal is now to go there! That's what I'm talking about!!!

I'll take this kind of carving any day over narrow, steep stuff! Oh man, I get all worked up just looking at that pic, LOL.

Scott

PS- Are there slopes this wide and open in the U.S.? Any in Colorado?

[SWriverstone]

Theres a catch 22 here. In order to make long wide turns you need the wide hills that are found on the green and blues, but to stay lain over for extended periods you need the steeps for some speed.

But wait—there's *another* catch-22! I also keep hearing that if you're REALLY carving (meaning 100% pure edge, with zero slipping/skidding at all) you can build up (and maintain) some serious speed—particularly if you're not jinking back and forth every few seconds. (Phil, maybe you can chime in on this!)

My point is...I couldn't do it...but I bet one of the best carvers in the world would have no problem going 60mph on a less-steep blue...as well as getting some extreme angles—because their technique is good!

Scott

[pebu]

but I bet one of the best carvers in the world would have no problem going 60mph on a less-steep blue...as well as getting some extreme angles—because their technique is good!

Scott

Probably not. Just keep at it, that's what I'm gonna do.

[Zone]

Oh man! Where is that place drzone? My life's goal is now to go there!

I'll take this kind of carving any day over narrow, steep stuff! Oh man, I get all worked up just looking at that pic, LOL.

That's Zinal, Switzerland. One of my goal is to go there one day also (like those lucky 160+ people 2 weeks ago at ECS)!!

Lot's more of that on www.swoard.com